State Police Identify Weapons Used in Sandy Hook Investigation /Still doesn't add up

reply to post by RoScoLaz


There's the one classic "rumba line" picture of children being led single file across the parking lot that we've seen since day 1. I too find it very odd there was no other video or pictures of groups of kids walking down the road to the firehouse. Another missing piece is there are no pictures from inside the firehouse where kids and parents were being reunited. I find that particularly odd given the drama of children being reunited with parents. That's good emotional stuff ready made for media.

I suppose I should mention we have yet to see any photos of the weapons used in the attack. Likenesses yes, but none of the actual weapons themselves.

Just wanted to point out a couple of things.

The shotgun

1. Very strange not just calling it a SAIGA. It can also be legally converted into a rifle with simple widely available parts.

2. In CT a shotgun can be giving to a person as a gift or sold privately to another person. In both of these cases it would not be required to be registered. It is only an illegal straw man purchase if the purchaser knowingly gives or sells it to someone not lawfully allowed to have it. I believe there are other legal methods of not registering a shotgun in CT.

The Glock 10mm

1. A 10mm is no joke and not exactly what I would call common. Definitely not rare, just not that widely used. Most frames cant even shoot them. What kind of ammo was it? Standard or +P? How much did this kid weigh?

2. Do a Google search of who does use 10mm Glocks.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by ajay59


"My point is, SOMEBODY is lying! When this goes to court, someone SHOULD be prosecuted for perjury!

And there should be a court hearing involving ALL of the players!"


and that would be the cops since they stated all information that doesnt come from them is false so.........


almost anytime i read the reporter has an un named source, i stop reading. its fake news.

reply to post by NickDC202


Yes its Semi only! You may see some 07 manufactures or law enforcement with full auto Saigas but the general public will only have semi auto versions.

Without looking I am pretty sure mine says CANTA-12 on the receiver. Cайга is Russian for Saiga.

That said its just a semi auto shotgun, and allthough it looks mean with the pistol grip modification it is just as effective without it. I love my Saiga and it is my favorite shooter. I have shot more skeet since I have had it then I did in all the time before.

I have seen some homemade shotguns that make the Saiga look like a kids toy.

Like this one.

Originally posted by safetyblack
The shotgun
1. Very strange not just calling it a SAIGA. It can also be legally converted into a rifle with simple widely available parts.

2. In CT a shotgun can be giving to a person as a gift or sold privately to another person. In both of these cases it would not be required to be registered. It is only an illegal straw man purchase if the purchaser knowingly gives or sells it to someone not lawfully allowed to have it. I believe there are other legal methods of not registering a shotgun in CT.

As the person who brought up the fact that the Canta-12 = Saiga-12 anomaly, I find the CT State Police press release identifying the firearm as a Canta-12 (since not even the manufacturer calls it that) very disturbing and what is even more unsettling is that no other media report, blog post, etc has noted it and all use Canta-12 in their "reporting"; it is kind of troubling that I was the first to highlight this given my very limited knowledge of firearms.

Regarding the registration: In my review of registration requirements in Connecticut (and other States) specifically related to the Saiga-12 I found in California it is considered an assault weapon and needs to be registered and other States (including Connecticut) the registration requirement or legal ownership of a Saiga-12 depends upon the modifications done to the firearm. Which begs the question: If Lanza's Saiga-12 had a clip similar to the one Donkey_Dean showed here would folks with firearm knowledge consider it an assault weapon?

reply to post by NickDC202


Cайга is Russian for Saiga. My Saiga-12 says CANTA-12 on the receiver. With the modifications I saw it would have been considered an assault weapon. With the right load/shells it would have been much more destructive than any of the other guns Lanza had on him. With target load or bird shot the gun is not very lethal at all. Well at least at a distance it would not do much harm.

reply to post by Donkey_Dean


Thanks Donkey_Dean; I appreciate your reply.

As I mentioned, my firearms knowledge is limited, but I noted a lot of debate about the classification of the Saiga-12 (which might be chalked up to the laws in the State of various Saiga-12 owners). If it is a semi, it would fall under the registration requirement laws in Connecticut (my understanding is that Nancy Lanza did not have the firearm registered either as a Canta-12 or Saiga-12).

Aside from the use of Canta (which as we've established is incredibly rarely used in place of the preferred Saiga), is the following description of the firearm from the CT State Police press release accurate?
#4. Izhmash Canta-12 12 gauge Shotgun (seized from car in parking lot)

I ask because the Bushmaster is identified in the press release as:
Bushmaster .223 caliber-- model XM15-E2S rifle with high capacity 30 round clips

Noting the clip from the image you posted, might the Saiga-12 have been better identified in the release?

Also, in your opinion as someone more knowledgeable than me, am I making too much of the stuff I've shared about the Canta/Saiga-12?

Originally posted by Donkey_Dean
reply to post by NickDC202

 

Cайга is Russian for Saiga. My Saiga-12 says CANTA-12 on the receiver.

I understand that and noted that in my initial post about it. The reason I highlighted it is because when Googling Canta-12 or "Izhmash Canta" it is incredibly rare to find any info mentioning a Canta on sites of gun blogs, forums, stores.

reply to post by NickDC202


Modified Saigas are tricky. To legally add a high cap mag to the gun it must first be modifed and made 922 compliant. This is generally done by adding a new trigger group and stock set. This then classifies the gun as made in the USA.

Anyone can legally make these modifications, but to do so without the proper license for the purposes of profit/resale is illegal and carries a 10 year prison term. Modifications extensive enough to reclassify a gun 922 compliant does meet the definition of manufacturing. I would question where the Gun came from because it may well be an illegall firearm.

It is possible that if the Feds had been able to enforce existing law in relation to this gun, the whole Sandy Hook incident could have been prevented.

Thank god Lanza didnt take his time and build a real gun! This item will ship straight to your door no check whatsoever! A simple weld is all it takes to make a full auto SMG! Please ask yourself how many of these and others are floating around! I will give you a hint 100 million+!

www.gunbroker.com...

Originally posted by Asktheanimals

Originally posted by 00001
That is strange the scanner audio says be advised we do have multiple weapons. including long rifles and shotgun.

Right. This means either that officer saw the actual weapons or he saw the shell casings.
Remember, this was during the school search in the first 10 minutes
-they hadn't searched the car yet.

Therefore either there was another shotgun involved inside the school somehow or the perpetrator returned the shotgun to his car after firing in the school.

Is it possible that the officer caught on scanner audio saw unfired shotgun shells, not shell casings? Maybe the shooter realized he had forgotten the shotgun in the vehicle, and ditched its corresponding ammo.

Or, as you and twohawks have suggested, either the shooter had 2 shotguns or he returned the only shotgun to the vehicle.
Just thought I would offer an alternative scenario.

reply to post by Asktheanimals


How many days later is this ?

Any normal person could figure all this stuff out day 1 or 2.....not weeks and weeks later.

We know this isn't the full truth.

It's just disgusting people find it in themselves to continue with this lie when they know things don't add up.

Journalists need to start being journalists.......do their job correctly.

Thank god Lanza didnt take his time and build a real gun! This item will ship straight to your door no check whatsoever! A simple weld is all it takes to make a full auto SMG! Please ask yourself how many of these and others are floating around!

Anyone want a full auto UZI?
www.gunbroker.com...

How about an AK?
www.gunbroker.com...
www.gunbroker.com...

When you hear of an assault weapon murder it generally involves a kit like this and some little gang banger! You may alkso want to note that this is how gun walking schemes really go down!

Person A illegally builds full auto receivers for the UZI, AK or hundreds of others. He then carefully cuts the receivers to BATF specs and sells them to user B with the appropriate parts kit. By law this all requires 0 checks and can be freely shipped door to door. User B makes A few welds and he is then the proud owners of a true weapon of war!

Try and guess how many kits just like this one exist in the US? Hint millions!

We police the crap out of legal gun owners, but ignore the full auto black market! I bet the Mexicans just love it!

Oh, I would be surprised if the ATF was not selling these kits themselves!

Originally posted by NickDC202

Aside from the use of Canta (which as we've established is incredibly rarely used in place of the preferred Saiga), is the following description of the firearm from the CT State Police press release accurate?
#4. Izhmash Canta-12 12 gauge Shotgun (seized from car in parking lot)

I ask because the Bushmaster is identified in the press release as:
Bushmaster .223 caliber-- model XM15-E2S rifle with high capacity 30 round clips

Noting the clip from the image you posted, might the Saiga-12 have been better identified in the release?

Excellent catch............Yes why didn't they describe the huge clip that was removed OR that nice shiny custom stock......BTW on the video the guy walking away from the trunk at the bottom looks to be holding a clip maybe.

Originally posted by Olivine

Originally posted by Asktheanimals

Originally posted by 00001
That is strange the scanner audio says be advised we do have multiple weapons. including long rifles and shotgun.

Right. This means either that officer saw the actual weapons or he saw the shell casings.
Remember, this was during the school search in the first 10 minutes
-they hadn't searched the car yet.

Therefore either there was another shotgun involved inside the school somehow or the perpetrator returned the shotgun to his car after firing in the school.

To me, it only makes sense that the gunman had two shotguns. Judging by the scanner, the cop found the "rifle and shotgun" after he says "suspect down". So, I have to assume a shotgun was on the shooter. I don't see how realistic it is for him to go back to the car.

Is it possible that the officer caught on scanner audio saw shotgun shells, not shell casings? Maybe the shooter realized he had forgotten the shotgun in the vehicle, and ditched its corresponding ammo.

Or, as you and twohawks have suggested, either the shooter had 2 shotguns or he returned the only shotgun to the vehicle.
Just thought I would offer an alternative scenario.

Originally posted by whisperindave
reply to post by Asktheanimals

 

You seriously stop needing to act like an investigator. using old video tapes taken from various news agencies does not make you Sherlock Holmes. The State Police official told EVERYONE not to listen to any news coming forth that was NOT FROM THEM they mentioned all kinds of people scamming and trying to ride the coattails of the investigators. (People they will seriously be investigating, hint, hint...Are you afraid of being detained indefinitely? Well keep writing your own ticket to Guantanamo!) You aren't an investigative reporter because you came up with some doubts in your less than thorough mind. Telling people that actors were used, that no murders took place, that the incident did not even occur, are all after-the-fact-conspiracies carried out by NRA shills that are out to put a stain on this case. As I have said to others, go to Newtown, talk to some people, do some interviews, follow some leads that don't start in your apartment! Then and only then will you be considered an investigative reporter. Until then you are the head of a rumor mill, that just got slapped down by the actual report of which guns were taken and from where.

Stop harassing the poor parents and witnesses in Newtown. You have no game. You got nothing. Obama isn't coming to take your guns and you know it. If anything all you did was just helped put thousands more potent killing weapons in the hands of diseased and disturbed minds by scaring these already paranoid freaks.

edit on 20-1-2013 by whisperindave because: Misspelling, additions to text

Do I even need to point out how ignorant this post is? We have this thing in our country, it's called the Bill of Rights, you should read it before the people that are adamant about burning it possibly get thier way. We have a right called Freedom of Speech. We are not spreading blatant misinfo. WE ARE ASKING QUESTIONS AND POINTING OUT HOLES AND INCONSISTENCIES IN THE "OFFICIAL STORY" (THAT HAS BEEN CHANGED MORE TIMES THAN A BABIES DIAPER OVER A 1 MONTH PERIOD). Nobody is doing anything in this thread that constitutes being held in Guantanimo for being an enemy of the state, so please STFU. Nobody is harrassing ANYONE in this thread. As far as Obama goes history dictates that ALL governments eventually turn on thier people. This has happened from the beginning of recorded time, so to say that it is an impossibilty is total ignorance to the Nth degree!! We are discussing it, if this bothers you well TOO BAD! Get over it and troll somewhere else! Nobody in this thread is harassing anyone in Newtown.

This had to be said in my opinion so I hope it does not get deleted.

Originally posted by stickywicket

Originally posted by Olivine

Originally posted by Asktheanimals

Originally posted by 00001
That is strange the scanner audio says be advised we do have multiple weapons. including long rifles and shotgun.

Right. This means either that officer saw the actual weapons or he saw the shell casings.
Remember, this was during the school search in the first 10 minutes
-they hadn't searched the car yet.

Therefore either there was another shotgun involved inside the school somehow or the perpetrator returned the shotgun to his car after firing in the school.

To me, it only makes sense that the gunman had two shotguns. Judging by the scanner, the cop found the "rifle and shotgun" after he says "suspect down". So, I have to assume a shotgun was on the shooter. I don't see how realistic it is for him to go back to the car.

Is it possible that the officer caught on scanner audio saw shotgun shells, not shell casings? Maybe the shooter realized he had forgotten the shotgun in the vehicle, and ditched its corresponding ammo.

Or, as you and twohawks have suggested, either the shooter had 2 shotguns or he returned the only shotgun to the vehicle.
Just thought I would offer an alternative scenario.

To me, it only makes sense that the gunman had two shotguns. Judging by the scanner, the cop found the "rifle and shotgun" after he says "suspect down". So, I have to assume a shotgun was on the shooter. I don't see how realistic it is for him to go back to the car.

I have a problem with a small female owning and using a glock 10mm. That is a very big round for even a big guy like myself.

reply to post by Olivine


12:33 here:
www.youtube.com...
I really hate to say this but I suspect we are going to find out that a shotgun was used.

Hey ASK check your PM I am gonna ASK a question..........

Now that I got that off my chest, S + F OP, good job! We need more people asking questions in my opinion, not harrassing people or running people down that disagree with you, but simply asking questions. If things don't add up you don't just accept that 3+2 is 4 because you are told so. It is nice to see that the brainwashing has not reached everyone yet, there is still hope. This report should have been accurate on day 1 as to how many guns there were and where they were used. This just coming now after almost a month is highly suspect, but then again little about this story isn't. To imply that media and officials have dropped the ball on this would require that we accept the fact that they had the ball to begin with. If any positive comes out of this story (as there is nothing positive with it as it is truly sad and incomprehensible) it will be that MSM will stop being the mouthpiece of the people that own them and go back to actual UNBIASED reporting which is what another part of the 1st Amendment is about "Freedom of the Press".