Why the Moon Landings Could Have Never EVER Been Faked: The Definitive Proof

reply to post by MrN9k


It's logic backwards. Why do NASA have to prove anything to anyone? It's not like their funding, or even public relations, are affected by it. It's only a very loud minority that is nagging about the alleged lack of evidence. The rest of us believe the evidence that exists. If you read the previous posts you'll see how the footage of astronauts hopping on the Moon shows that there's 1/6th gravity. On Earth, they wouldn't have been able to jump that high, that far, and for that long, regardless whether it's done in vacuum or not.

reply to post by MrN9k


I think you'll find this more to your liking:

Apollo 14 SEQ Bay Pendulum Journal

In there you will find links to the videos, and the observations along with the math and the physics for it.

As for asking NASA, you most likely would not even get a response when asking them to "prove" something. There is a very good reason for that:

Tax payer's money.

The majority of your tax payers really do believe that we did go to the moon. NASA spending time 'debunking' or having to "prove themselves" to a very small minority of people is not the best use of their budget which is the tax payer's money.

They have a very limited budget, and that includes their salaries. They have better things to do than proving something to someone that they did something.

Now, if the Moon Hoaxers were a much larger majority, and voted in politicians were to have a congressional hearing on the moon landings......then you might see things happening, as NASA then would be required to provide said proof.

So that is your answer: if you want NASA to acknowledge Moon Hoaxers and prove things to you, you are going to have to get them to actually waste their very small budget, and the only way you are going to get that done is if you can get the government to demand it of them.

reply to post by wildespace


My logic is perfectly reasonable. Apparently only NASA have the ability to "prove" one way or the other, so I and many others are asking them to do so. No point asking my mum. She does not have a vacuum chamber...
...
So what you are saying is:

"No. NASA is not going to dignify you idiots with a response, and we are not wasting our time. We have nothing to prove to you"

Yep. That's what I thought...

"Why do NASA have to prove anything to anyone?" They don't. Well, they are paid for by the public, and some of the public want them to, so maybe they should...

However NASA apparently like the "moon hoax" talk to continue. Apparently it's good for them? Although they clearly have the power and ability to completely debunk the "moon hoaxers" they choose not to do so. I suspect there are many ways they could if they wanted to... Better to get Mythbusters to do it I assume?

NASA simply saying "we could prove you are wrong, but we are not going to lower ourselves to your level" is only going to raise "hoax" talk. It has. It did. They knew it would.

How much would it cost NASA to prove this? I bet my hat they have a vacuum chamber large enough to perform the demonstration I'm talking about. I bet it would cost them very little. Considering the NASA budget it would cost a tiny, tiny fraction of what they spend.

However they choose not to do so. Apparently having millions of people around the world question the moon landings is not that important, and NASA don't care enough to bother spending a small amount of money to stop it. That does not make sense to me...

"If you read the previous posts you'll see how the footage of astronauts hopping on the Moon shows that there's 1/6th gravity. On Earth, they wouldn't have been able to jump that high, that far, and for that long, regardless whether it's done in vacuum or not."

If you read the previous posts you'll see how the footage of astronauts hopping on the Moon showed what could be wires coming from their suits. Men jumping proves nothing. That could have be faked.

However, 1/6th gravity movement of the dust I don't think could be faked. But then I have not seen this demonstrated, just hinted at in passing without actually being demonstrated.

So if I'm right... This argument comes down to NASA being able to prove that men went to the moon, but that actually they choose not to.

I don't think that moon hoax talk is good for NASA. It surely damages them. I find it very strange that they have never taken the opportunity themselves to put an end to the "hoax" and the fact that they have not makes me continue to ask questions.

Do you think Buzz Aldrin likes having to go around punching people in the mouth? I don't think he does. I think that if NASA could prove they went to the moon they would.

So... Anyone got proof of 1/6th gravity on the moon?

reply to post by eriktheawful


Sorry, I missed your reply, when I replied to the above...

RE your link "Because of the simplicity of the configuration, students and teachers can easily create a mock-up of the SEQ Bay pendulum at home or in the classroom and learn a great deal about differences between terrestrial gravity and lunar gravity."

Um. There is no air on the moon. A similar test in air on the Earth would prove nothing. Air has friction. Especially as the pendulum used is on a ribbon.

How much do you think it would cost NASA to perform the experiment I requested? Either with the dust, or just recreate the pendulum experiment on earth in a vacuum. By adjusting the speed of the video footage collected from the on earth pendulum experiment and comparing it to that taken on the moon would be conclusive. That would IMO prove it to virtually everyone.

I think it would cost virtually nothing. I am sure NASA have a vacuum chamber large enough. They would need 1 guy in a space suit inside a vacuum chamber. I suspect they have space suits.

Your suggesting that NASA have not proved themselves because it would cost too much is not credible. They could do it for virtually no cost.




For the record, this is from Wikipedia:

A 2000 poll held by the Russian ''Public Opinion Fund'' found that 28% of those surveyed did not believe that American astronauts landed on the Moon, and this percentage is roughly equal in all social-demographic groups.[[Cite press release| url=http://bd.fom.ru/report/cat/sci_sci/kosmos/of001605| accessdate =August 13, 2009| title=БЫЛИ ЛИ АМЕРИКАНЦЫ НА ЛУНЕ?| Russian| date=April 19, 2000| publisher=[[Public Opinion Fund]]]][[Verify credibility|date=August 2009]] In 2009, a poll held by the United Kingdom's ''[[Engineering & Technology]]'' magazine found that 25% of those surveyed did not believe that men landed on the Moon.[[Cite news| url=http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2009/12/fake-right.cfm | accessdate =February 19, 2011| title=It was a fake, right?| newspaper=[[Engineering & Technology]]| publisher = The Institution of Engineering and Technology| location = London | date=July 6, 2009]] Another poll gives that 25% of 18–25-year-olds surveyed were unsure that the landings happened."The Cosmic Grid", by Liz Kruesi, ''[[Astronomy Magazine]]'', Dec. 2009, p. 62.

So it's not a small minority as has been suggested. Lots of people question this. NASA should act. It could put an end to this. Why does it not?

ok, guys, tell me something:
when you look at the moon, at night, using a telescope -well, those of you who own one that is, and there is a full moon - did you ever see a US flag out there? if NASA landed and put the US flag there, we would be able to see it, right? unless winds or other things flew it away, and now it just floats in the universe.

i believe a good telescope would be able to show the flag, after all they didnt go to the dark side of the moon, but they stayed on the lit one.... am i wrong?

and as far as the videos go -- why in some there's shadows on the soil and there aren't in others?

reply to post by MrN9k


It's all fighting talk, and makes about as much sense to me as NASA's "refusal" to debunk the hoax makes to you. Imagine you were a person who after many years of studying, working, and training has achieved something remarkable, and has evidence supporting it, as well as the official and popular recognition. Then a small bunch of people come up to you and say "we don't believe you did it until you prove us wrong by doing this and that." Are you going to go out of your way to disprove them? I wouldn't. You really give the hoax crowd too much credit. I'm sure no one at NASA is losing sleep over them and their claims.

Besides, no matter how much proof and debunking is offered, the hoax crowd have their feet firmly planted and would not budge. If NASA have indeed conducted those experiments you described, someone would say that they faked the results.

As for the wires on spacesuits claim, it has been debunked. What you see are either spacesuit antennas glinting in the sun, or video artifacts.

reply to post by MrN9k

My logic is perfectly reasonable. Apparently only NASA have the ability to "prove" one way or the other, so I and many others are asking them to do so. No point asking my mum. She does not have a vacuum chamber...

Much as I hate to bump this thread, the fact of the mater is that it would be impossible for NASA to prove that they sent men to the Moon to your satisfaction. You clearly reserve the right to reject any evidence that NASA provides on the grounds that it was provided by NASA!

On the other hand, you can prove some of the physics of the situation to your own satisfaction by doing some simple experiments yourself. All you need is a large mason jar, the air pump for an aquarium and some Portland cement or even talcum powder. Do I need to provide a drawing of the obvious protocol? If you are not willing to do this easy and inexpensive experiment yourself, you have no reason to criticize NASA for not doing it for you, given that you would not believe them anyway!

reply to post by MrN9k


NO WHERE in my post did I say that it would "cost too much".

No where.

I said: it's tax payer's money.

YOU might think that it costs nothing. But that's not true. It does cost something. Even if every single thing that is needed to do tests is right there and does not have to be made or constructed, you are still requesting that they do a test on their employee's time. Time that they are paid for with tax payer's money.

Do you know how hard it is to get money out of the government? I know it seems like with the way our government spends money and gives people entitlements that it would not be a problem.

However, in YOUR case, you'd have to justify the expenditure. No mater if it was all of 5 cents. You would still have to find a way to justify it, then get it approved.

NASA has vacuum chambers, and yes, they have done experiments such as the one with the Mysthbusters debunking Moon Hoaxers. That experiment involved the flag, the hammer and the feather, which was testing vacuum and not gravity like you are looking for.
However, NASA did agree to it, not because they want to debunk Moon Hoaxers, but because it was basically FREE PR for NASA: they get to show off on a popular TV show.

As for the air resistance in the paper I linked to on the pendulum experiment: Did you bother to read the entire thing? If you had, you would have found this:

As a final point, it is important to note that, in the experiments I ran in my study, air drag and air currents contributed to the decreasing amplitude of successive swing. On the Moon, which has virtually no atmosphere, the decrease in amplitude of the Apollo 14 pendulum is necessarily due to other factors. Looking carefully at the video clip, notice that, for the first several swings to the left, the tape does not remain straight, but that the tip flips up. This happens because there is relatively little weight at the bottom of the tape to keep it taut. This suggests a mechanism that would produce damping. Specifically, the 'flip' of the end of the tape will necessarily send wave-like disturbances up the tape and, at both B and A, flexing of the tape and/or tiny motions induced in the LM will dissipate energy. It seems significant that, by the time that the period reaches its steady value of 4.7 seconds, the 'flip' has virtually disappeared and, thereafter, the amplitude no longer decreases. In other words, whatever the precise mechanisms responsible for the observed damping, they are not signficant after about period 10.

Source

And as for Minority / Majority:

Okay, so what you've shown (with your broken link btw) is that 28% of the RUSSIANS that were polled do not believe that we landed on the moon......

Uhm.....28% is still a Minority...you need to get to 51% if you want a Majority......
Russians, last I looked, do not vote for our politicians that would need be voted in, or written to and convinced to have NASA conduct experiments.
Can you show us a poll for US citizens? The more polls the better too (should always cite more than one source when it comes to polls).

reply to post by wildespace


"fighting talk"? Who is fighting? You apparently. Not me. All the aggression I see in this forum comes from those claiming we went to the moon. Not the other way around. If people don't like others asking questions why are they on ATS?

Let me post some more stuff from Wikipedia which shows how many "moon hoaxers" there are out there...

In a 1994 poll by The Washington Post, 9% of the respondents said that it was possible that astronauts did not go to the Moon and another 5% were unsure

A 1999 Gallup poll found that 6% of the Americans surveyed doubted that the Moon landings happened and that 5% of those surveyed had no opinion,

A 2000 poll held by the Russian Public Opinion Fund found that 28% of those surveyed did not believe that American astronauts landed on the Moon, and this percentage is roughly equal in all social-demographic groups.[20] In 2009, a poll held by the United Kingdom's Engineering & Technology magazine found that 25% of those surveyed did not believe that men landed on the Moon

Another poll gives that 25% of 18–25-year-olds surveyed were unsure that the landings happened.[22]

*Taken from en.wikipedia.org...*

It's NOT a small percentage of people asking NASA to prove themselves. It's lots of people. Please do not lie and pretend that it is a just a small group of idiots who question the moon landings.

I agree that some people would still question the moon landings even if NASA proved it. Some, however, the VAST majority would be satisfied if prominent "moon hoaxers" were involved and were allowed to oversee the experiments.

In addition you complacently avoided my point that it would cost NASA virtually nothing to do this. That's a very simple fact. ... All they would need is a vacuum chamber... Recreate the pendulum experiment. Job done. End of conspiracy.

Proof for NASA would cost them virtually nothing. The argument that "they don't need to" is clearly total hogwash considering that actually there is significant public opinion suggesting that they should.

reply to post by MrN9k


MrN9k, one of your questions got me to realize that the dust argument (it falls quickly, proves 1/6th gravity, etc.) may have a huge hole in it. If the moon trip was a hoax (and I'm 200percent in the "real" camp, but enjoy the reality of multiple realities) then they would have thought it thru enough to use a substance that, while looking like moondust, was something which would have the properties of dust as it would look with 1/6th gravity. With the expertise even available in 1969 that doesn't sound like too much of a job, and takes the dust argument in favor of the moon explorations being real (which of course they were) off the table.

And yes, it would be nice if NASA did the experiment 9k is talking about. It seems easy enough. But it would give attention to the "hoax" people, and NASA wants them to have as little attention as possible. I know I've touched a moon rock (the one in the D.C. Air and Space Museum), and knowing that made the experience better than if I had doubts about it. If we can take MrN9k's doubts away, he would realize the fun of this site, with so many minds concentrated on these and other questions, and would stay long enough to share the knowledge he has accumulated on threads of his own. Yay k!

reply to post by eriktheawful


I asked you a question. Please answer it. How much do YOU think it would cost NASA to perform the pendulum experiment I suggested?

Approximately?

reply to post by Kryscent


There is no telescope in existence that has the power to see anything left on the moon by humans and as far as I know, there are no plans to make one. As for your question about shadows, could you provide a link to the video where you believe this anomaly exists?

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by MrN9k

 

My logic is perfectly reasonable. Apparently only NASA have the ability to "prove" one way or the other, so I and many others are asking them to do so. No point asking my mum. She does not have a vacuum chamber...

Much as I hate to bump this thread, the fact of the mater is that it would be impossible for NASA to prove that they sent men to the Moon to your satisfaction. You clearly reserve the right to reject any evidence that NASA provides on the grounds that it was provided by NASA!

On the other hand, you can prove some of the physics of the situation to your own satisfaction by doing some simple experiments yourself. All you need is a large mason jar, the air pump for an aquarium and some Portland cement or even talcum powder. Do I need to provide a drawing of the obvious protocol? If you are not willing to do this easy and inexpensive experiment yourself, you have no reason to criticize NASA for not doing it for you, given that you would not believe them anyway!

This.

This is why NASA will never agree to "prove" something simply for the sake of proving it.

Time and time again, Moon Hoaxers have shown over and over that no amount of evidence will change their minds. Ever.

They are not objective and go into the subject without a preconceived idea. Instead, they go into it, absolutely sure that everything was hoaxed and that they have been lied to.

That is the WORSE way to do science at all. You may have a working theory, and you want to prove it, however, when the evidence shows that your theory is wrong, repeatedly, you move on or change your theory.

Moon Hoaxers do not do this. They instead discount evidence or try to cherry pick their evidence.

So it would not matter how many different experiments NASA did to try and prove that we went there. They know it would be a huge waste of time and resources.

Just ask people here on ATS. We see it all the time. I even had one Moon Hoaxer that did change their mind, after they researched Apollo 14 with the links I gave them. They actually changed their minds and said, yes, okay we did go to the moon.............sort of.

He said okay that by Apollo 14 we did succeed and go to the moon. But Apollo 11 to 13 was faked still.



We have even had Moon hoaxers on here that have stated: Even if I were taken to the moon and could see the equipment there myself I would not believe. It would be obvious that since the moon landing times, NASA has been secretly putting the equipment there with robotics since they know at some point in the future, people would get to the moon and would have to have this stuff there!

So, again, it's futile for NASA to try and prove anything to Moon Hoaxers.

Originally posted by MrN9k
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

I asked you a question. Please answer it. How much do YOU think it would cost NASA to perform the pendulum experiment I suggested?

Approximately?

I have no idea.

NASA does have several vacuum chambers, and one that is big enough to do experiments it. The equipment to run a pendulum experiment most likely would be cheap (except for the high speed camera).
However......how much do the employees and scientist doing the experiment get paid? You can't ignore this part.

Again, it wouldn't matter however. Moon Hoaxers would just declare CGI (especially in today's world) or would say that the test is not valid because it's NASA.

So......go hire a private company that has a large enough vacuum chamber.

reply to post by eriktheawful

Why do you say it would be futile when MrN9k says that with one experiment he would be in the "real" camp (and it sounds like he's not a hoaxer, but a questioner of data, so he's probably a scientist or a satirist or something). The cost of the experiment he suggests seems very minimal, and could be done over someone's lunch hour. Maybe NASA should take a look at doing this one thing, invite MrN9k to participate, and let him dress up in a space suit too.

Originally posted by Kryscent
ok, guys, tell me something:
when you look at the moon, at night, using a telescope -well, those of you who own one that is, and there is a full moon - did you ever see a US flag out there? if NASA landed and put the US flag there, we would be able to see it, right? unless winds or other things flew it away, and now it just floats in the universe.

i believe a good telescope would be able to show the flag, after all they didnt go to the dark side of the moon, but they stayed on the lit one.... am i wrong?

and as far as the videos go -- why in some there's shadows on the soil and there aren't in others?

To see things like that on the moon from here on Earth: you will need a telescope who's primary mirror is the same diameter as the length of a football field.

Sorry, it's the physics of optical systems. No telescope on (or off) Earth has that large of a mirror.

reply to post by eriktheawful


And why don't they have mirrors that big? Bill Gates or someone could toss a couple of billion dollars into the project to come up with a Very Huge Football Field Size Telescope (VHFFST) and actually do something for humanity with his spare change.

Originally posted by Aleister
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

Why do you say it would be futile when MrN9k says that with one experiment he would be in the "real" camp (and it sounds like he's not a hoaxer, but a questioner of data, so he's probably a scientist or a satirist or something). The cost of the experiment he suggests seems very minimal, and could be done over someone's lunch hour. Maybe NASA should take a look at doing this one thing, invite MrN9k to participate, and let him dress up in a space suit too.

Sure. No problem. I'll just ring up NASA on my phone......

Ask them. Seriously. No one does.

But again......it wouldn't matter. It might change this one person's mind.

But how many of the other Moon Hoaxers would follow suit?

If the ones here on ATS are any indication the answer is: very, very few.

reply to post by eriktheawful


I think you agree it would not cost very mush. This is not about money. If it was just a small minority of people questioning the moon landing I would understand NASA not wanting to dignify their position. However, it's not a small number of people. It's millions and millions.

Would moon hoaxers just call "CGI"? No. NASA could ask many of the various well known moon hoaxers to attend the experiment, and watch in person. If NASA could prove 1/6th gravity to the people who are currently leading the moon hoax that would end the debate for most. Including me.

The cost would be tiny...

Yet it does not happen...

reply to post by Aleister


I'm not in either camp Al. To do so would mean I had "Faith" in one side or the other. I'm not a fan of faith... Proof please...