Obama's Gun Control is NOT ABOUT GUN CONTROL. Read this.

Self defense is a great reason to carry a gun. BUT, the reason most of are against gun legislation is that we have a right to do whatever we please as long as we don't violate another persons rights or harm them in any way. US citizens don't have any rights anyways. They have privijeges and benefits that can be revoked at any time. Americans have rights, not US citizens. There is a big difference.
There is a very clear and precise reason for being armed. Look at history to see what happens when a population is disarmed. Nuff said. Argument is over.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by DCPatriot

Originally posted by nenothtu


2) The Second Amendment is specifically written to provide PARITY between the people and any potential governmental aggressor, specifically TO make those potential aggressors think twice before tackling. Why then are police and military exempt from a ban on "cop killer" bullets? WHY, specifically, would COPS need "cop killer" bullets more than non-police?

edit on 2013/1/17 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)

The term "cop-killer" bullet was initiated at a time there were calls for more safety of our police officers.

"Hollow-point" buillets inflict much more damage to human tissue than unaltered ones.

Precisely. Armor piercing ammo has a tendency to punch right through, leaving a clean, bullet-sized hole. Hollow points make a mess of things. That was part of the problem in Mogadishu - the opposition was getting drilled straight through by over-stabilized, steel jacketed bullets, failing to realize that they were dead, and so coming right onward.

"Cop killer" bullets were just a misnomer (just like "assault weapon") used for hollow points during the whole "black talon" nonsense. Hollow points actually are less likely to penetrate vests than full metal jacket so they are less of a "cop killer" than the evil Black Talon hollowpoint (which, if you buy the irrational propaganda at the time became a buzz-saw in the body and chased children down the hall.)

Full metal jacket (copper jacket with lead core) has been the standard bullet design for over a hundred years. Having the copper jacket prevents lead fouling of the barrel and maintails accuracy, but may not deform on impact and will penetrate farther.

"Armored piercing" is not very common in small arms but usually consists of a steep tip or steel penetrator inside the lead core. M193 "green tip" 5.56 NATO is an example of this. It has better penetration of light armor, but not ceramic plates and, since it does not deform on flesh, makes a smaller wound than HP or frangible ammunition.

I find the distinctions of ammo in the law a bit silly and not very practical nor reliable. If you are going to shoot someone, regardless of type, you are likely to kill them. The issue is not which ammo should or should not be allowed, the issue is that a citizen has the right to defend themself.

reply to post by NavyDoc

The cop killer bullets during the urge to ban back then, were full metal jacketed (as opposed to jacketed hollowpoints, jacketed pointed soft-points, etc) bullets that were coated with teflon.

Cop killer bullets- Wikipedia

Interestingly enough, KTW, the company that developed them, was composed of a coroner, his special investigator.... and a cop!

ETA: The US M855 (NATO SS109) has a steel penetrator and was standardized by NATO because it was considered more humane, since it tended to fragment less and didn't yaw as extremely as the M193.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

The cop killer bullets during the urge to ban back then, were full metal jacketed (as opposed to jacketed hollowpoints, jacketed pointed soft-points, etc) bullets that were coated with teflon.

Cop killer bullets- Wikipedia

Interestingly enough, KTW, the company that developed them, was composed of a coroner, his special investigator.... and a cop!

ETA: The US M855 (NATO SS109) has a steel penetrator and was standardized by NATO because it was considered more humane, since it tended to fragment less and didn't yaw as extremely as the M193.

edit on 21-1-2013 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)

Thanks, I got M193 and M855 confused. My error. The penetrator was also there to penetrate issue helmets at a certain range (I do not recall exactly what.)

The funny thing about teflon coated bullets, is that the teflon was put on them to make for more relaible feeding and less jamming (consider the teflon no-stick pan) and less barrel wear and have nothing to do with being "armor penetrating" and that was a largely media contrived myth.

reply to post by blamethegreys


Again I'm not anti-gun I'm saying as I did on page one that the NRA and people who are on TV need a better argument. There's also a fact that you can't dispute, although the UK etc. has more assaults, the US is still the highest in murder. This isn't an issue for me here, although it seems to be an issue for insane people who are paranoid and think 'they're coming to take my guns!'.

Originally posted by NoJoker13
reply to post by blamethegreys

 

Again I'm not anti-gun I'm saying as I did on page one that the NRA and people who are on TV need a better argument. There's also a fact that you can't dispute, although the UK etc. has more assaults, the US is still the highest in murder. This isn't an issue for me here, although it seems to be an issue for insane people who are paranoid and think 'they're coming to take my guns!'.

US is still highest in murder? Raw numbers? Yes. But that's comparing apples and oranges.
Murder percentage vs population? Not the highest in the world by far.

And are you talking firearm murder or total murder? What kind of firearm? Assault weapon? Handgun?
Spouting vague statistics in this emotionally charged arena...that dog won't hunt friend. Give me data backing your claim, and a source.

And just because someone has a healthy fear of a government gun-grab doesn't make them insane. This really is an important distinction. How many first world countries have criminalized gun ownership in whole or part, instituting "grace periods" to surrender weapons before you become a felon?
If you think that can't happen here you're being really dishonest with yourself. How many quotes from the current administration could I find related to desires to disarm the population? 10? 20? I bet I could get 30 easy.

And no I won't, I don't have that kind of time.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

The cop killer bullets during the urge to ban back then, were full metal jacketed (as opposed to jacketed hollowpoints, jacketed pointed soft-points, etc) bullets that were coated with teflon.

Cop killer bullets- Wikipedia

Interestingly enough, KTW, the company that developed them, was composed of a coroner, his special investigator.... and a cop!

ETA: The US M855 (NATO SS109) has a steel penetrator and was standardized by NATO because it was considered more humane, since it tended to fragment less and didn't yaw as extremely as the M193.

edit on 21-1-2013 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)

Yeah, back then they said the teflon coating made all the difference.

Personally, If I have to shoot someone, it's not for fun. I'd PREFER to make a mess, so that they stop whatever it is they get shot for in the first place. I'm not partial to drilling clean holes straight through them - I'd rather they notice they're shot, and act accordingly.

SS109/M855 rounds are also heavier than the older M193 ammo (62gr vs. 55 gr) and the rifling was tightened up from 1:12 to 1:9, then 1:7, to accommodate that. the end result was an over-stabilized bullet that goes a long way, but doesn't gain any attention when it gets there. That's what the US had in Mogadishu, and it was a dismal performer in combat. Early in the current wars, I was hearing a lot of the same sorts of complaints.

My AK also used "armor piercing" ammo. It had a mild steel core surrounded by lead, in turn surrounded by an FMJ. It wasn't designed to be armor-piercing - it just worked out that way. Apparently the Russians fudged , and were too cheap to buy the lead, so used a steel core filler to replace it with.

In all reality, nearly ANY FMJ rifle cartridge will penetrate the sort of armor we're talking about - soft kevlar body armor. That makes ALL rifle cartridges "armor piercing cop-killers" whenever they head down the road to ban things.

Stock up now...

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Thanks, I got M193 and M855 confused. My error. The penetrator was also there to penetrate issue helmets at a certain range (I do not recall exactly what.)

800 meters. The whole thing came about because the USMC were trying to turn assault rifles (real ones, not the cosmetic ones) into sniper rifles. One of the requirements for the trials was that the ammo pierce a standard GI helmet at 800 meters.

I blame the USMC for ruining what was a promising weapons platform. If you want a sniper rifle, get an M-40.

The funny thing about teflon coated bullets, is that the teflon was put on them to make for more relaible feeding and less jamming (consider the teflon no-stick pan) and less barrel wear and have nothing to do with being "armor penetrating" and that was a largely media contrived myth.

As I recall, the argument back then was the teflon would allow the bullets to "lubricate" themselves all the way through the kevlar vest. What a crock - as if that's even necessary.

I hate the way he uses kids as an excuse and pull on the heart strings of people, these cheap tactics are sick, here is an interesting video, notice how it was made just after the election and before Sandy Hook, and predicts he is going to take guns.

reply to post by NavyDoc

When I think of "cop killer" bullets I think Armor Piercing (AP) as in able to penetrate kevlar vests not special Hollow Point (HP) bullets like "black talons" (Winchester basically still makes the same thing in the Ranger line but they dropped the BT name)...you can still get old production BTs but they were going for $50/box (20) before the ammo crunch.

Originally posted by CosmicCitizen
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

When I think of "cop killer" bullets I think Armor Piercing (AP) as in able to penetrate kevlar vests not special Hollow Point (HP) bullets like "black talons" (Winchester basically still makes the same thing in the Ranger line but they dropped the BT name)...you can still get old production BTs but they were going for $50/box (20) before the ammo crunch.

I think they use the term "cop killer" for anything they find remotely scary at the time. I've seen it used for HP and FMJ at one time or another.

To truly undestand what horsecrap documents like the one being discussed here mean,one must have a copy of the legal dictionary which was current at the time the document was written.

Without that dictionary present,one can only guess what the doc means,since the specific definitions of words in the doc are contained only in that certain dictionary.

These are the games being played to keep you all from ever figuring out what the # is going on.

Did anyone just see Kerry`s speach on being Sec. of State? Was I hearing things, he was talking about the New World Order, The U.S. being the Global leader, what is up here, and then right after that They march out the people to try and push the gun control measures through. Could they be any clearer in their intent. If you haven`t watched the speach watch it and you will see what I am talking about. I don`t know about all of you but I did not sign up for this, and our freedoms mean everything to me. It is time to look deeply into what is happening here and question everything. This is not my idea of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

Gabrielle Giffords and her husband—The “Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy Act for Gun Control”—Receives John F. Kennedy “Profile In Courage Award”!
Such cowardly, lying actions deserves this Absurd Award which is named in honor of the physically and mentally sick JFK who had Addison’s Disease. This was hidden from the American Public because technically he was unfit to run for president. No wonder Nixon was so angry!
Once again the Liberal and Conservative Puppets of the Republic both within and outside of government have let me, a trained physician (who knew all about JFK’s Addison’s Disease) expose the constant barrage of lies that are spewing carelessly from the American Media and onto the American public.
Just like the lies of Osama Bin Laden and his “seen live on screen” execution by the SEAL TEAM SIX and the Dictator Obama’s peremptory, stupid boast that he, Obama killed OBL. When in fact OBL had Marfan’s Syndrome and had already been dead over ten years! As you all know by now, I had warned on many radio outlets—Alex Jones and in numerous blogs about such treachery.
Predictably, John Brennen and his Irish Catholic Choir boys are once again trying to sodomize the American Public with a REAR GUARD PSYOPs [pathetic as it is] that they have ‘arrested in Turkey' [our ally] a ‘son-in-law of the decade dead OBL, Sulamain Abu Ghaith, married to OSBL daughter and a ‘propagandist’ for AL Qaeda [Please don’t forget that the CIA created AQ and is now using them to fight with the FREE SYRIAN ARMY against Syrian President Bashar Assad].
Sidebar: The Free Syrian Army is neither ‘free’ nor ‘syrian’ nor an ‘army’, just a bunch of thugs from Saudi Arabia and Al Qaeda.
The reason I have to go back to the absurdly constructed OBL story is not that I am right or that the world already knows these facts, but this ‘false narrative’ and other ones, particularly the embellished portrait of JFK as a vibrant, active, decisive, judicious, and healthy, physically active POTUS is/was completely false. The truth about the severity of his health condition was distorted and contorted by his physicians (some of whom trained me at Cornell University Medical School).
Why is all this desultory discussion important to what I am about to tell you?
I was a medical student at CUMC where we studied the case of a psychotic MASSACHUSETTS SENATOR who was treated for Addison’s Disease at the outstanding Orthopedic Hospital Special Surgery where JFK was treated for ‘so-called back pain’.
It turned out like so many of the constant lies of JFK and his family they did not tell the surgeons that JFK had been on steroid medications for his already diagnosed serious case of Addison’s—an auto-immune disease which is characterized by a withering if barely existing Adrenal Gland.
Symptoms include, erectile dysfunction [evidenced by a compensatory history of sex addiction including trysts in the White House but as the MOB’s mistress, Judith Exner said so bluntly ‘he was bad in bed’].
So much for his sexual prowess! But that is not really pertinent to becoming an effective POTUS.
More importantly, Addison’s Disease caused JFK to be is indecisive, hesitant and use poor judgment, etc. This weakness in character was quickly picked up by the butcher of the Ukraine, Nikita Kruschev who purposefully confronted JFK in the Cuban Missile crisis.
The American public is still fed this mythologicalized version of JFK by the likes of Chris Matthews who was then a self serving bag-man for Tip O’Neill’s Massachusetts Political Machine.
This old doctor gets around and knows a lot that he did not want to have to know. But since the American public is being inundated by nonsense, false narratives, lies, distortions and deceptions, I must go back to the facts as I know them and present them to my audience in the ether of the blogosphere.
Back to JFK, just another pol who lies to become president , yes, just like Clinton, Bush and Obama. The distortions continue from one generation to another to keep the power base of a completely illegitimate republic…..just like the Bushs?
When JFKs opponents asked his advisors about JFK’s medical condition, [read Ted Sorenson such a Historian whore]—they lied by cleverly wording the response that JFK did not have Addison’s Disease caused by TUBERCULOSIS which accounted for 20% of the incidents and the matter was sadly dropped.
A while back, I lectured at West Point on Presidents and their medical conditions and how their coterie lie to the US Public and what it means for military deployment. I explained to the WP cadets, most of whom were incredulous and probably did not believe me, that during the JFK election, JFK collapsed twice- once at the end of a parade during an election campaign and once on a congressional visit to Britain. (GB was where his ‘gangster father Joe Kennedy’ had been an American Ambassador before being dismissed by FDR and MI6 for his pro-Nazi public sentiments.

reply to post by pieczenik


Interesting stuff, please, continue with more info. I'll get the popcorn cooking up! =)

In another recent thread, Giffords' husband recently bought a 1911 .45 pistol, and an AR-15 rifle. When confronted he said he will give the rifle away to the police, and was silent on the issue of what he will do with his pistol.

Hypocrites, all of them!

reply to post by aryaputhra


You are actually dead on. I tried to explain that in another thread, that the key points in his executive actions were those that had to do with healthcare. If they can define depression as a mental illness and they can crack into your medical records during their background checks how many people will that keep from getting a gun. And it will be people with depression, that they blame, not people with depression that have been put on anti-depressants (even though those SSRI's are likely cause for the lack of empathy that leads to many of these crimes) because big Pharma pays big. So it will be those that are depressed and on "anti depressants," but they will cite the depression rather than the drugs.

Yep, I think you may be right on the money with this. It was very curious that so many (like 3 or 4) of his 20 (or 23 or however many) exec actions after S.H. had to do with healthcare.

having read the first several pages and this last page, this thread has gone so far off topic its ridicilous.... The OP mentions something about TPTB and how obama won because he was the one who showed he would push through their agenda... And then goes on to summarize this document for us. I dont know about you, but someone that can randomly throw out vague assumptions with no reasoning as to how he got there, I dont want summarizing a document for me. I am willing to bet that MOST people in this thread didnt even read the document in the OP and just jumped on board with what he or she said. I believe something fishy is going on, but there is way too much paranoia on this thread. Come on back to reality now.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Question for OP. If everyone that was on antidepressants was deemed unfit to own a gun and mentally ill, would they have to throw out every conviction that had someone on the jury that was on antidepressants.

Honestly, I wonder if I would trust people under the influece of these SSRI's to make the right decision if I was on trial. I mean on one hand they are going to be less emotional, but on the other less empathetic about life.

Well I dont think they should allow people who are not fit to own guns willy nilly. But then again, pretty much all the more criminal types I have ever seen and known never had an issue in getting a gun illegally. And truly some of these people who can get a gun legally, well it is pretty scary. Lets just say, they do seem more then a little butterfingers to me and I may not trust them with opening a pickle jar much less a loaded gun. Though I do believe they are in a minority.

But in all I think this Gun Control thing, well as an idea its one step bellow the Bullet Control idea. Don't know what bullet control is? Well watch this vid, its at the 2:50 mark for those who dont want to watch the whole thing.

3.27.2023

Former President Obama is (falsely) claiming that GUNS kill more children, than any other cause of death.

HE IS WRONG: www.breitbart.com...

Liberals really do think Americans are stupid. Well...maybe many are. But not those of us who soak in truth, here on AboveTopSecret.com.