A time of many changes in America.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Well, at least we agree that the NRA are scum. They are all about the money - not about your second amendment rights. The more guns they can get people to buy, the more money in their pockets. Too bad people are actually falling for it.

Why don't you just pick one of the executive actions and tell me how it set a new law or changed an existing one. Pick the one you think is the worst of the bunch. Let's discuss it.

reply to post by tinhattribunal

You do understand of course, Executive Orders carry the full force of FEDERAL LAW, right?

These aren't kind suggestions or helpful ideas to start a discussion with...however that idiot Carney wants to frame them. Executive Orders are Federal LAWS issued by the Executive Branch and generally meant to simply tweak Executive processes and agency function. They do, make no mistake, carry the FULL force of any other federal law on the books today.

He made a big flourish and issue of the legislative action he is ALSO encouraging and he focused a fair bit on setting up blame for Congress when they fail to do much ....given the VERY mixed feelings of the public they serve. That inaction isn't a failure as much as the will of the people by having NO clear will on this issue for bringing new laws and major policy shifts either way.

EO's though..are anything but 'suggestions' or opening moves to an ongoing debate and discussion. Yikes..

Originally posted by MystikMushroom
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

"The sky is falling we're all going to die!!!"

All 23 of these "Executive Orders" have no real impact on you or your neighbor. Why have them? To satisfy the American public that something is being done. I call these "feel good EO's"

Look, we all know this country is going down the crapper, and frankly there isn't anything you, I or anyone else can really do to stop it. We're past the point of no return. We've reached "Peak America".

I take solace in the fact that the average lifespan of an American male is what, 70-something? I only have another 40 or so years of putting up with this crap.

We all sit around and bloviate and whine about the problems in America. Is anyone here actually running for any offices to effect change? Is anyone here actually making signs and organizing protests? Is anyone here doing anything besides complaining?

Well, funny you should mention doing something.... I planned this thread to be part 1 of a two part block. The other, if I'm not drop dead tired, I'm putting up tonight after classes. It will explore the options to each of us and what CAN ACTUALLY BE DONE vs. what people day dream of doing and in the end, do nothing at all about anyway.

There is plenty that can be done and some of us are doing all that is possible. Some of us have been doing quite a bit more than just blogging for a good bit of time now. Success in this isn't measured like a sprint. This is a marathon and it took those running the show 3-4 decades to get to this position. It cannot be reversed in the same fast food fashion everything else in society is demanded and expected. it will take time to reverse, without question.

Sitting here and taking cheap shots at people who ARE interested in helping to bring change is about the lowest of the scale in terms of doing something vs. simply talking about it though. At least those who just talk are thinking in the right direction. Those who just talk about how everyone else are fools...can't even be said to have that much.

Originally posted by kaylaluv
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Well, at least we agree that the NRA are scum. They are all about the money - not about your second amendment rights. The more guns they can get people to buy, the more money in their pockets. Too bad people are actually falling for it.

Why don't you just pick one of the executive actions and tell me how it set a new law or changed an existing one. Pick the one you think is the worst of the bunch. Let's discuss it.

Well now.. if I went and did that, I'd be tearing out a fair piece of the content I've been working on putting together since yesterday.

I'm not being coy but serious. This thread took a couple hours to formulate, outline and put into writing for a post. The next part has taken longer thus far and I still figure I have an hour or more tonight before it's a cooked bird and ready to serve. Stay tuned...

* The title to the second part is the same as this one, to be helpful. Just swap changes with choices and you have the dinner in a nutshell. ....and indeed.. We do agree on the NRA. They aren't about rights beyond THEIR right to lord over everyone else and build their own base of power at any cost. They actively UNDERMINDED the efforts on the Heller case when the GOA wouldn't kowtow to them and let them have credit without much effort to earn it. In fact, the NRA had pushed for the Heller Case NOT to be taken all the way, as a loss could have been catastrophic. They didn't trust the system or the public enough to take the risk. I'm glad Gun Owners of America and the Second Amendment Foundation DID consider the risk worth taking ...and didn't give a damn for credit, just winning the fight.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by kaylaluv
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Well, at least we agree that the NRA are scum. They are all about the money - not about your second amendment rights. The more guns they can get people to buy, the more money in their pockets. Too bad people are actually falling for it.

Why don't you just pick one of the executive actions and tell me how it set a new law or changed an existing one. Pick the one you think is the worst of the bunch. Let's discuss it.

Well now.. if I went and did that, I'd be tearing out a fair piece of the content I've been working on putting together since yesterday.

I'm not being coy but serious. This thread took a couple hours to formulate, outline and put into writing for a post. The next part has taken longer thus far and I still figure I have an hour or more tonight before it's a cooked bird and ready to serve. Stay tuned...

Okay, I'll be patient.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I'm not sure why I have such a defeatist attitude today, but when I logged on ATS this morning all I saw were gloom and doom topics, gun topics, and federal power-grab discussions.

Perhaps you're right, but we can all sit and talk untill we're blue in the face and not change anything. We should start creating ideas on ways to effect change in peaceful, legal and morally superior ways.

These executive orders, even though seen as law, must still pass the various court muster. having said that i do not see these newly issued executive orders doing that and so i'm really not concerned by yet another comical obama outburst.

reply to post by MystikMushroom

lol... I don't know about Morally Superior. As a confirmed 'heathen' living in the buckle of the Bible Belt here, I have an overriding need to take issue with those who consider themselves morally superior to anything but their own shortcomings in life. Of course, you're not suggesting that seriously I'd imagine...at least not that part, I hope. lol

The rest though? Well.. What else do we do? We can sit around and belly ache all day and night. Some do. I imagine when not on ATS, some give their friends and family ear fulls until their friends are few and family have other engagements whenever the chance to get together arises.

Outside that though? I figure in the most basic of terms, we each have but 3 options. Now..my thread later goes into quite a bit more..but 3 CORE choices for direction exist, IMO.

1. We can talk and dream and bitch and moan

2. We can go postal and after talking and dreaming, we can run out and scream while making nightmares.

3. We can focus our efforts by using anger with frustrations to turn that into constructive efforts ranging from online outreach with education (Making sites for it..I don't mean using ATS as a means to that end), to activism (Occupy served a real purpose and benefit..even if a limited one) or actually becoming a part of the system directly and working from the inside.

I think MOST do #1 ..with occasional dreams of #2...or maybe disturbing delusions would be more apt a description. lol...

A rare few actually DO #2.. Thank God for small favors in that being exceptionally rare by overall numbers.

Fewer still do #3........in either formal education and political process OR even activism in more than a once in a lifetime fluke for a one-off protest somewhere.

Choices ..Choices.. We all have choices....and so few even seem to have the effort or interest to MAKE one. Of course making no choice is making one itself and choosing a 4th option of..simply letting life happen to ourselves and hope it happens nicely.

we live in a country where 70,000 dead people can vote.....nuff said

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


The use of Executive Orders is just an easy way for the modern president to give the american people the finger so he can pass whatever law he wants without repercussion from the system of checks and balances garnered by other legislative branches. In otherwords his power can go unchecked. Executive orders were drafted up during WWII to imprison japanese american citizens in concentration camps on american soil, even though it was unconstutional it still happened and that wasn't the last time executive orders were used to obstruct the law and it won't be the last.

You Folks Just Don't Get It, Do You?

The Sons of God and the sons of man...

Cognitive Dissonance (conflict of ideologies) = Forced-Reconciliation of core-belief structure.

When ideologies and belief systems are reconciled, anger, violence, apathy or action, positive or negative may result.

When this filters down to social class and cultures, meanings can change and often do.

This gives-rise to subcultures which accommodate what's missing in society.

When you consider the Laws of God and the sometimes counter-intuitive statutory laws of man, you start to see the bigger-picture. Perhaps this is the mark of the beast? Or alluding to one of many circumstances where cognitive dissonance plays a part in perpetuating a system which emphasizes placing a fiat value on people as an object. Who can define the net-worth of a human being?

I can't. And I won't. There's no executive order which could even try to do this and it's not right to do it anyway, so why even try?

What's missing in today's equation is the moral, spiritual, and ethical reasoning which promotes critical thinking to the point where it is automatically presumed that an individual is responsible for their own actions. And those actions should not need to be regulated by state or government. This is a slippery slope toward socialism, where all individual freedoms are taken-away when people do not have a common-moral center as a single populace. And when they have the common-moral center but do not exercise it. Apathetic. Apostasy. It's just not there. Too many social divisions.

Race plays a part in this as well. Let's not forget we are the Human race, not individual races within a label. Our birthright is there, it's stated plainly in the oldest Prime Source around. All of the ancient laws seem to support this too. But those statutory laws of man always seem to push the limits of common law which is based-on Canon Law.

Is it too much to ask for all mankind to have true individual freedom, being responsible, and respecting and appreciating the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness?


Here's one cognitive dissonance in-example quote:

Thou Shalt Not Kill
as opposed to:

Capital Punishment Death Sentences
Statutory Law in some states or countries

Abortion laws and how individual freedom conflicts with Canon Law...it's a slippery-slope without knowing logical formalities in using a valid argument. This needs to be taught at all ages.

Using reason and compassion without conflict is possible...

reply to post by trekwebmaster

What's missing in today's equation is the moral, spiritual, and ethical reasoning which promotes critical thinking to the point where it is automatically presumed that an individual is responsible for their own actions. And those actions should not need to be regulated by state or government.

I'll agree with that part. You come on mighty hard with the religion and with a sharp edge that's hard to voice agreement with the point because of though, just to note that.

I'll admit that I have become more sensitive to excuses made in avoiding personal responsibility in what people do though and when actually noticing it? It really is a character flaw at near epidemic proportion. No one is personally responsible for anything, anywhere, ever to hear some talk. It's society, or the environment or whatever else. Something else though. From individual to political....always pinning the blame back and making sure the buck never stops.

Even with the current events this thread is based on. The way it's coming out, Obama is doing what Congress can't be seen for the 2014 election to have done ...and they'll end up doing whatever was politically awkward for Obama and his supporters/base.

See if that's not how it turns out in the end and the blame will be so evenly spread that no one is actually held directly responsible for anything.

It's how Libya worked for the fighting AND Benghazi as it happened by gov't reports/records on the months prior to the event. No one's to blame..because everyone is to blame.

Fast and Furious, the same. So many to blame, I think only a few low agents got a whole lot done to them. Retirements for those who asked...and I haven't kept up for this part, but 'where are they today' would have me betting at least one involved will have gotten a promotion.

This all blame so no blame is how everyone has been taking the worst of whats been done with the nation for over a decade .. this doesn't look much different, IMO.

reply to post by sonnny1


Well said and I agree. The dye is cast.

reply to post by kaylaluv


How does the NRA profit from gun sales? I thought the manufactuers made the profit? Just looking for clarification.

I think if we are going to discuss this issue, it is evident that the semantics of wording needs to be clear. If not, it leaves too much in play to set up straw-men and red-herrings on what I believe is an important topic.

In legal terms, an Executive Order (EO) is a presidential directive directed inward towards Government; specifically (and abused as pointed out by the OP) to agencies and departments that fall under Article II, Section I authority. Department of Homeland Security, Department of Transportation, Justice Department, etc, etc. An EO has the full force of the law behind them and apply to the agency it is directed towards.

For example:
An EO directing the Department of Labor to make priority NLRB cases regarding union complaints.

The above is directed inwards and effects the bureaucracy (which, already has a round-about in regards to Congress in many cases).

Presidential memos, proclamations, actions can vary from the above and have more latitude. Proclamations typically are directed outward from Government; A Presidential Proclamation that June is "Red-headed Step Child Month". These obviously carry little weight and are largely ceremonial. Memos and actions are akin to EOs, except in legal sense and in court, they would be handled differently. A memorandum or action basically is explaining the president's priorities or actions he is taking within departments under the Executive branch of Government.

I think knowing these distinctions will help further the debate/discussion.

Post Script:
It is however, after all said, should be pointed out that the Congressional Service Report in 1999 basically stated that an Exectuive Order and an Executive Memorandum/Action do not bear much difference except in name.

Another executive tool which has raised many questions is the presidential memoranda. Although they
possess a different title than executive orders, it appears as though these instruments are very much alike. Both are undefined, written instruments by which the president directs, and governs actions by, Government officials and agencies. They differ in that executive orders must be published in the Federal Register whereas presidential memoranda are similarly published only if the President determines that they have a "general applicability and legal effect." .... In at least one instance, a federal district court seemed to use the two terms interchangeably.

As with all things within our Government, sophistry and abuse of words is rampant.

There is a second part to this thread that I am making I will be titling "A time of many choices in America". I'd intended to get that posted tonight but then learned of the major demonstrations planned for Saturday. What I have to say across the thread may be heavily edited or changed by what happens Saturday.

This note is as much for kaylaluv as anyone, as I'd specifically said I'd have it tonight in a reply. I'd rather a couple days delay and a thread that stands over time as something of value than a rush to get up what I've got time invested in now to see significant assumptions change. If Saturday draws enough for numbers? Well.... people ARE absolutely pissed off. No question there... Numbers talk. If the State Capitals are just enundated by normal, average folk? Congress will actively fight knowing their own jobs are directly at stake at their individual next elections, whatever year it is.

It's all a numbers game with politicians though. If you have the numbers, you get your way. It's just that simple. I hope this has a very large and diverse turnout. BTW. It's democracy in action which IS roughly how it is supposed to work on the state to local level. Just like this.

@ A quick note to anyone attending one of these ..... Protesting doesn't change the law. Believe me. I know from Occupy and being an 'openly' armed (everyone knew it..I had to debate GA the day I arrived to carry it CCW..so the biggest open secret in camp ) member of the safety committee in the camp I was a part of. If it's legal, carry...in whatever legal way exists, by all means do it ... just don't show up and figure breaking THOSE laws are a good idea for civil disobedience. I got more attention than others and it wasn't entirely positive even by Missouri cops. Those are lines crossed that would hurt a lifetime, IMO. In Particular.... KNOW IF AND HOW the law changes the moment your foot crosses from city sidewalk to state property or in some places, federal property. A whole truckload of laws can change in the space of a foot when it comes to guns.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I really appreciate the time you took to reply.

yes, I am a bit of a troll. but I am not interested in starting fights. rather, I just like to find out if there is any real depth to a person's argument, most often reflected in their ability to refrain from being overly REactive. and I am impressed that your response are large on information and small on reactionary opinion.

yet I remain unmoved in my engagement with this issue. perhaps the chemtrails or gmos or antidepressants really have done their alleged damage. or perhaps, like I said at the bottom of my first post, living in a world of NEWS ALERTS it is hard to really discern the important topics.

nevertheless, I agree with your final assessment that this issue, like so much of this modern social mess, needs to be handled at the local and state level.

thanks again.

reply to post by tgidkp

(being my own thread..I'm going to expand a bit for a moment)

I appreciate your reply and words. Ironically, changes can certainly be personal as well and you're not necessarily going crazy if you recall me as more apt to be combative for the sake of it. I was among the more aggressive and exceptionally partisan for awhile too (it's a daily recovery.. ). It's probably better I never know how close I may have come to bans a couple nights since making my account, to be realistic lol...

Relating to topic though, it wasn't the outcome of the election that changed my feelings pretty dramatically, but seeing the fever pitch building that I'd been a part of myself and realizing... yikes! It's a whole lot deeper than I'd ever seen it for an election before and probably much deeper than any election could fix or change.

Everyone is so busy fighting each other, TPTB didn't even have to play at being subtle anymore. Changes in America, Indeed.

There's something wrong when Executive Actions/Orders/Directions can just flow like bad ideas from a frat house on purely reactionary timelines.

In terms of personal, I even started using the 'truck load' of facts approach as a club against trolls, to be honest. (sheepish laugh) ... Then realized fairly quick that by building so much stuff in researching my little clubs..maybe using the same stuff to be truly helpful would work better. It's sure more productive, at any rate. (it's perfecting skills that are really helpful in college too. One can never be too good at research. lol)

Originally posted by kaylaluv
I fail to see where any of the 23 executive actions have enacted new laws or modified any existing law. All I see are clarifications and emphasis on existing laws.

This may be off-topic, but .... what really scares me is the power of the gun lobby (or any other lobby for that matter) to actually enact and modify laws. Lobbies like the NRA have MUCH more power than the president has ever had. That scares me.

I'll comment on your second paragraph.......

In my mind the NRA 'IS' the public, the individuals willing to defend to the best of their ability, against the degradation of government in the hands of the few intent in ushering 'their' form of government and their self serving dictates. This is the only form of defense available to the common individual when their representatives fail to voice their wishes and side with the despots.
I don't fear the NRA, I welcome it because it means to me that there are individuals willing to protect our freedoms.

The OP's wish to keep this "not about guns" is unrealistic because all that is happening in government right now is intertwined. I can appreciate steering away form the gun issue as a topic, which as of late seems to hijack every topic and new thread, but the fact of the matter is that it is integral to current events, and events planned for some time now. It's unavoidable. Still I will attempt to honor that request if sensibilities permit. The major issue confronting the United States is the movement to do away with the petrodollar. China, Russia, Japan, India and a handful of other nations have decided they will not be held hostage by the FED, which has over the years controlled all of commerce worldwide. They have grown strong enough, and perhaps much more financially fit than us, and do not wish the US to dictate policy. Our treasury, Fed and economy has prospered on their backs for too long artificially, and they wish to divorce themselves in favor of a sustainable world monetary unit.
Even Germany wants back their Gold stored here in the US, fearing our eventual dollar collapse. Nearly everything in government is now done in secret or behind closed doors or when Congress is in recess, nearly everything done when the people can not voice their will, ambushed as it were.

The United States has spent heavily to attain world supremacy, but at the cost and detriment of many other nations unable to stop or defend against our policies. The power to maintain that stranglehold has been in the hands of an elite few in our Government, and behind the scenes, while America's wealth has been stolen by this same few.

So YES it is "A time of many changes in America". The world is changing.
It's a matter of if we will be able to recover from the thieves, liars and corruption inside our government, and those same individuals will put every obstacle at their disposal in our collective way to stay in power. Will we let them? Or will we reclaim our government and return it to it's original form and intent. Simply demanding and talking may not be effective. Thus, the Second Amendment our only option....... reclaiming our government by force and the will of the People who are 'America'.

I'm running out to work (part-time only sad to say) and have only read the Original Post and hope this hasn't been added since. This is not a new issue and it does come up in certain circles from time to time, it's this idea of "Unitary Executive" and I find it very scary yet I do see the necessity for it. There doesn't seem to be a mechanism to oversee and/or modify these "orders".

www.sourcewatch.org...

Having served in executive positions within small organizations that run by consensus and majority rule, I appreciate the need to take action on specific issues within the input from the whole governing body (time is usually the biggest hurdle - think broken plumbing - can't wait on thirty people to get together and decide what to do about it) and I believe that this is the intent. In small organizations (with normal people with consciences and common goals) overreach doesn't happen because of the moral and ethical restraint of the governing body. This doesn't take place with organizations with the level of greed, corruption and lust for power that our elected officials inhabit.