UK.. We Messed Up Letting The Government Take Our Guns..

Originally posted by ultimatelizardman

Originally posted by something wicked
No it's not, you just dont choose to believe it. Can you show what you think is a different figure or perhaps it's now getting to a point where you should put up or shut up?

you want me to back up my statements?

libertarianhome.co.uk... ome-us-states/

www.dailymail.co.uk... ticle-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

www.cato.org...

okey dokely then....

link one - england and wales has a higher murder rate than 4 (god save us! 4!) US states and a whole 10 (oh noes! 10!) states are beaten by scotland.

link 2 - daily scare - we'll all laugh into our yummy tea at links to that infamous rag - did you know my dog was being raped by an unemployed bosnian plumber as i typed this? the scandal!

and finally link 3 "The Cato Institute stands in defense of the traditional American principles of individual liberty, limited government, free markets, and peace. " well on this fabulous link. we have some editorial opinion and a map - which shows......... an american map full of pins for various crimes and precisely zero info on the uk, or belgium for that matter. now i suppose this is not intended to show the uk (and belgium funnily enough) as totally crime free compared to a horrorshow in the US, but as a comprehensively incompetent link it has remarkable humour value.

still denying ignorance one supposes?

seeing as we are on humour and i have my strut on, maybe there is a reason for the difference in part of the national character between the uk and us, especially re guns.
in the uk we are populated by the offspring of invaders and raiders who came specifically to conquer new lands - the first post ice agers; the celts; the romans; the angles, saxons and jutes (etc); the vikings and the normans. we love a good fight we do, and for a small nation we have been rather good at it over the years - maybe thats why we dont get so scared at shadows and dont feel we need guns when we go to tesco.
maybe the us feels different as you are made up of the huddled masses fleeing oppression (i could say rather than standing up to it, but thats just inflamatory ), hence the victim mentality?
i actually based this off an irish/scouse joke that i will share with uk users on this thread if they u2u me, but my new version is way better (and yes i have part irish blood and have also been drinking). is any of this true? does it even matter? a great deal of the non uk comment on this thread is so way of topic i dont care.

have a nice evening folks, see you all soon no doubt

Originally posted by michael1983l
reply to post by D377MC

 

It was much safer for the residents of Sandy Hook that guns were so easily available wasn't it?

This right here shows how clueless you are, because you see Connecticut already has strict gun laws in place. Didn't seem to make a difference did it?

You should really stick to discussing the UK.

OK, it seems like i have to explain the reasons behind each link...

I posted my first link as it shows that the UK has a higher murder rate than the states of the U.S.A in which people have very easy access to firearms (notice how the states with stricter gun control, such as heavy restrictions on concealed carry, are the only ones with higher murder rates than the UK). This provides evidence that armed citizens deter crime, while unarmed sheep encourage it.

I posted my second link to show that the UK has higher rates of serious violent crimes, including murder, than South Africa according to official reports by the EC and the UN (note that these two organizations are known to under-report crime in left-leaning countries due to their biased, left-wing nature).
However, i realized that the link was not properly functioning, so i will post the statistics directly together with a (hopefully) fixed link.

new link

South Africa has a population of 50,586,757 with an average of 732,121 serious violent crimes over the last 10 years.

The UK has a population of 62,641,000 with an average of 1,158,957 serious violent crimes over the last 10 years.

France has a population of 65,436,552 with an average of 324,765 serious violent crimes over the last 10 years.

Notice that South Africa and France, due to their far greater racial/ethnic tensions and greater wealth disparity, would be much worse off than the UK if their people did not have the right to armed self-defense (in France anyone can own pepper spray or a tazer for self-defense).


I posted my third link to show that private gun ownership for the purpose of self-defense allows innocent people to effectively and safely protect themselves, their families and their properties from violent criminals.



Now, i did not want to argue with your doctored statistics but you leave me no other choice.

You claim the UK has only 600 cases of murder and manslaughter last year.

According to the latest available statistics, there were only 84 homicides (murder and manslaughter) in Switzerland committed in the year 2009.

According to the latest available statistics, there were 318 homicides (murder and manslaughter) in Saudi Arabia committed in the year 2007.

Both Switzerland and Saudi Arabia allow armed self-defense and have a very strong gun culture with high rates of private gun ownership.


sources:

data.un.org...

www.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by D377MC
reply to post by something wicked

 

Can you just get over the fact that in the UK most people have no interest in owning a gun and those that do primarily use them for sport or hunting?

I believe that to be true.

It would be truer still if you added the words 'as of yet'.

You simply never know when you will need a gun. When people in Argentine were asked what they would have stockpiled beforehand had they known the Country was about to collapse and go bankrupt, it doesn't take a genius to figure out they all wished they'd had guns.

Right up there with toilet paper on their wish-lists.

Most of us hope we will never have to use our guns other than for target shooting, but we aren't going to bury our heads in the sand whilst others deprive us of them either, because we are wise enough to see the writing on the walls and have carefully considered the examples of history.

Ever asked yourselves why the UK's little experiment doesn't pull any weight with us?

I really don't think your comment has any weight whatsoever. Why do you think that all of a sudden our government may become tyrannical? How often has America overthrown its government by use of arms rather than ballot box? Why are you suggesting what is an institution in America, with a mutli billion dollar market in arms selling, strong lobbying voices whispering how votes/jobs would be lost even if gun control took out some types of weapons, not all, would or should work in the the UK?

Why do you think that if everyone had a gun they would all have perfect shooting/target skills and only the bad guys would ever be shot? I can tell you why, but this isn't a thread about the American gun culture is it?

You don't think my post has any weight whatsoever? Not surprising really, considering you completely misunderstood it and went off on a tangent of your own - to be expected really, with gun control advocates.

Where did I mention tyrannical government? I am also not discussing whether gun control would or wouldn't work in the UK. That takes care of 90% of your post I guess, where you attribute to me things you would like to discuss and try to appear smart whilst doing so.

At the risk of being condescending, let me explain my post to you, though it was in plain English.

I suggested that the words "as of yet" be added to the following proposition:
" in the UK most people have no interest as of yet (or so far, to date etc.) in owning a gun "

The wisdom of such a statement is inescapable, for who are you to exclude that one day they may not change their minds?

The example of Argentina is telling. Interestingly, they had the same kind of debt problems we are having today - their economy collapsed, something an growing number of economists are forecasting as an increasingly possible worst-case scenario for western countries.

Do you know what happened when the Argentinian government fell, when there was no money for services, including law and order?
Take an educated guess. Do you think crime increased, or decreased? Did people feel safer or less safe?

Criminal bands were roaming the streets and no-one was safe. What Argentinians learnt from this, is that they wished they had of been armed beforehand. Their conclusions, not mine.

When I suggest something like that is a possibility, an increase in criminality due to economic, or even other catastrophic events, and suggest that if it happened in the UK you may (or may not) find yourselves wishing you could protect yourselves just like Argentinians did, I do believe it is a wise suggestion.

Yet you created a tyrannical government straw-man and off you went. on your personal little crusade... Sigh!

If you are going to dismiss my comments as irrelevant, please try to make sure you understand them first please.

Originally posted by D377MC

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by D377MC
reply to post by something wicked

 

Can you just get over the fact that in the UK most people have no interest in owning a gun and those that do primarily use them for sport or hunting?

I believe that to be true.

It would be truer still if you added the words 'as of yet'.

You simply never know when you will need a gun. When people in Argentine were asked what they would have stockpiled beforehand had they known the Country was about to collapse and go bankrupt, it doesn't take a genius to figure out they all wished they'd had guns.

Right up there with toilet paper on their wish-lists.

Most of us hope we will never have to use our guns other than for target shooting, but we aren't going to bury our heads in the sand whilst others deprive us of them either, because we are wise enough to see the writing on the walls and have carefully considered the examples of history.

Ever asked yourselves why the UK's little experiment doesn't pull any weight with us?

I really don't think your comment has any weight whatsoever. Why do you think that all of a sudden our government may become tyrannical? How often has America overthrown its government by use of arms rather than ballot box? Why are you suggesting what is an institution in America, with a mutli billion dollar market in arms selling, strong lobbying voices whispering how votes/jobs would be lost even if gun control took out some types of weapons, not all, would or should work in the the UK?

Why do you think that if everyone had a gun they would all have perfect shooting/target skills and only the bad guys would ever be shot? I can tell you why, but this isn't a thread about the American gun culture is it?

You don't think my post has any weight whatsoever? Not surprising really, considering you completely misunderstood it and went off on a tangent of your own - to be expected really, with gun control advocates.

Where did I mention tyrannical government? I am also not discussing whether gun control would or wouldn't work in the UK. That takes care of 90% of your post I guess, where you attribute to me things you would like to discuss and try to appear smart whilst doing so.

At the risk of being condescending, let me explain my post to you, though it was in plain English.

I suggested that the words "as of yet" be added to the following proposition:
" in the UK most people have no interest as of yet (or so far, to date etc.) in owning a gun "

The wisdom of such a statement is inescapable, for who are you to exclude that one day they may not change their minds?

The example of Argentina is telling. Interestingly, they had the same kind of debt problems we are having today - their economy collapsed, something an growing number of economists are forecasting as an increasingly possible worst-case scenario for western countries.

Do you know what happened when the Argentinian government fell, when there was no money for services, including law and order?
Take an educated guess. Do you think crime increased, or decreased? Did people feel safer or less safe?

Criminal bands were roaming the streets and no-one was safe. What Argentinians learnt from this, is that they wished they had of been armed beforehand. Their conclusions, not mine.

When I suggest something like that is a possibility, an increase in criminality due to economic, or even other catastrophic events, and suggest that if it happened in the UK you may (or may not) find yourselves wishing you could protect yourselves just like Argentinians did, I do believe it is a wise suggestion.

Yet you created a tyrannical government straw-man and off you went. on your personal little crusade... Sigh!

If you are going to dismiss my comments as irrelevant, please try to make sure you understand them first please.

You don't sound condescending (well, you do, but I assume that's your natural personality), you sound desparate to make a point. YOUR crusade is coming on a thread specifically aimed at the UK and trying to wrap you opinion on it as though you know what is best for the UK. I understand the point you are trying to make, but I don't agree with it. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Originally posted by ultimatelizardman

Originally posted by something wicked
No it's not, you just dont choose to believe it. Can you show what you think is a different figure or perhaps it's now getting to a point where you should put up or shut up?

you want me to back up my statements?

libertarianhome.co.uk... ome-us-states/

www.dailymail.co.uk... ticle-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

www.cato.org...

Libertarianhome appears to be full of articles that mention UKIP a lot, along with letters from Liam Fox, a man who is batpoop crazy. Not a trustworthy source.
The Daily Mail spends most of its time scaring the crap out of its readers and is thoroughly despised by most sensible people. A paper that was once ill-advised enough to have a head of "Hurrah for the Blackshirts!" is not one with a history of being right. The paper jumps on every bandwaggon around.
As for the Cato people, do me a favour, please!

Originally posted by NavyDoc
Here's the thing: I like the UK. I like visiting there. I like the history and the culture. I was thoroughly impressed by the men and women of the British armed forces I worked with overseas.

Without the UK, there would be no US and I don't mean the colonizations of North America, but without the enlightenment philosophers and English common law, we would not have our Constitution because those are some of the influences used to make it. Papers like the Magna Carta were direct ancestors of our Declaration of Independence.

Without Adam Smith and the principles of a free market, we would not have been a financial success.

In these debates, I disagree with the gun control laws in the UK and the results thereafter, but I bear no ill will to the people of that fine nation.

Wait a minute. Didn't they burn down the White House ?

I also remember the Boston Tea Party. We have come a long way since then.
I'm willing to forgive them because of all the cool James Bond 007 movies.

Yeah. But if you get attacked with a sponge you're less likely to die than if you get attacked with a knife. And if you get attacked with a knife you're less likely to die than if you get attacked with a gun. (...)

If the US government is to be believed you can kill 3,000 with box-cutters. I see no point in furthering that line of reasoning...

reply to post by ultimatelizardman


in the end it just comes over as derailment - this thread is not about figures in other countries or comparisons of differently collected figures for differently influenced cultures and the complexities and arguments that relate to that.

it seems that there is a thread you should start, it'll most likely be a very interesting discussion

Originally posted by ultimatelizardman

Both Switzerland and Saudi Arabia allow armed self-defense and have a very strong gun culture with high rates of private gun ownership.

Yeah, but they don't like shooting each other, whereas Americans do. So best leave the guns to the people who can handle them, I guess.

Originally posted by D377MC

If I had a pencil and intended to kill you, and you had a gun, I would most certainly not attempt to. Which does kind of show how effective that gun would be for you doesn't it?

And which also shows that your equivalence between a gun and a pencil is total nonsense.

Note that if I had a gun you could have one too. So in actual fact at least one of us would die.

Wait a year or two however for the guns to be gone, and tell me what will stop me shoving that pencil through your eyeball and into your brain at a 45 to 60 degree angle?

I dunno. Are you totally nuts? Then I suppose you might. Most people get through the day without killing people with pencils though.

Is it truly possible you don't get it? Are you arguing for the sake of it?

Not at all. You guys love killing each other apparently so as I say, I think that you should leave the guns to people who aren't so dead set on murdering one another. Mind you I don't really care that much. I don't have to live in the US or send my kids to one of your shooting ranges, sorry, schools.

once people realize "why" the us gov. is attempting gun control, then it will be way too late.

Originally posted by EvanB
Over the last few weeks I have taken great interest in the US debate on gun control..

And like you was exasperated by the seemingly ubiquitous strange love of guns et al in the US.. The culture of being armed to the teeth did not make sense.. It seemed irrational and the advocates for guns seemed alarmingly blinkered in their arguements..

We in the UK like sheep willingly gave up our arms via fear based propaganda and marketing which has allowed successive governments to ride rough shod over us with impunity..

In short.. Our government has no fear of the British public.. We have all been angry at the nonsensical obssession with handing our soveriegnty to the EU.. Our unjust laws that put the criminals rights higher than the victims.. Even unto the point that defending our own homes and families against intruders will put us in jail..

Do you think that Gordon Brown would have got away with what is tantermount stealing our gold if we were armed?. Or the constant BS from the EU?.. Open door immigration? Unjust wars?... Man.. The list goes on and on..

All we have left is demonstrations with plackards.. Which they duly ignore.. If like America our citizenry was armed do you think they would ignore our democratic wishes?

I think not!

But now they are laughing at us.. And get away with anything they want and we are somewhat powerless to stop it...

We was duped into having our sharp teeth removed via knee jerk emotional response to tragedy..

Conned...

You Americans that read this.. Dont make our mistake.. Your founding fathers wrote the second ammendment with prophetic eyes..

Or be prepared for a national dental teeth extraction..

Well said indeed, and judging by the stars and flags of this thread, many people agree with you!!

Nice to hear from people in your region of the world whom has awaken, and/or has not fallen for the brainwashing over there. The brainwashing put forth by they in high places who want you and your family defenseless. This was not done for YOUR safety, but for THEIR safety when they wish to have their way with you. They do NOT have you or your families best interests in mind for you all. Wakie, wakie UK, they planned your disarmament and its not for your "safety". You'll see...

reply to post by ResistTreason

"Just say 'NO!'"
-Nancy Reagan

Originally posted by EvanB
reply to post by superman2012

 

Lets take a real life example..

Tony Martin was woken up in the middle of the night by two burglers who invaded his rural home.. He shot them with a shotgun.. One of them died.. The other lived to claim compensation for his injuries..

Tony Martin got put in jail for manslaughter... For protecting his home and possesions..

Do you not see something wrong in that?

It seems like it pays VERY WELL to be a criminal over there.

Disgusting and shameful UK.

reply to post by ResistTreason


you should really read the whole thread to get some perspective (and facts!) on this whole issue, but this thread kinda talked itself out some time back. not getting dragged back in beyond this post

reply to post by misscurious


I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

The right to own, and carry is to protect yourself in the event that something bad happens.

I myself don't feel the need to carry one to protect myself.
But I wouldn't hesitate to shoot, or kill another who was in the act of infringing upon the life of another.

The right to liberty and property are products of your right to life.

UK gun laws are here for a reason, for the protection of the nation... Dunblane as an example and that maniac that shot a cop!

And not to mention that taxi guy that shot how many people?

To me they are a necessary, nip it in the bud so to speak. We may think that we have surrendered something special when we rally haven't?, I wonder how much as a nation do we really ask this question..

Originally posted by seabiscuit
UK gun laws are here for a reason, for the protection of the nation... Dunblane as an example and that maniac that shot a cop!

And not to mention that taxi guy that shot how many people?

To me they are a necessary, nip it in the bud so to speak. We may think that we have surrendered something special when we rally haven't?, I wonder how much as a nation do we really ask this question..

The question isn't asked because we don't fear the government like the Americans do.

reply to post by spacedog1973


I couldn't agree more...