a former Evangelical "born again" explains why Protestantism isn't true

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by colbe
I am no theologian but the Heavenly liturgy sounds like the Holy Mass to me. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is Christ's (unbloody) sacrifice made present...continuously offered to the Father, it is eternal.

You are correct. You are no theologian. The Catholic Church, however, is full of them and has had 2,000 years to understand it all. There is liturgy in heaven. That is why you need to trust the Catholic Church when it says that your theology is wrong. That is why you need to trust the Catholic Church when it says that some alleged apparition has bad theology. After Jesus returns - THERE IS NO SACRIFICE OF THE MASS IN HEAVEN. There is no need of a sacrifice. None. It is consumated. Everyone to sacrifice for will be in heaven or hell. It would be a waste of a sacrifice. And in perfect heaven ... waste doesn't happen.

Go back and re-read the information I posted.
The theology is sound.

You made your claim using Father Ryan's writing and now you just repeat yourself personally. Next, you went to Catholic Answers and another forum to avoid replying to all the negative replies to Father Ryan's writings.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
LIKE I SAID -

The Eucharist is a sacrament.
There are no sacraments in heaven. Sacraments are for a temporal framework.

FF, your quote above is from Father Ryan Erlenbush

Here is a response to his writing on if the Mass is offered in Heaven.

~ ~ ~
newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com...

helgothjb said...

Fr. Erlenbush,

With all due respect, I do think you are in error here. Christ, after the resurrection, continued to have the wounds of the passion. In the vision of St. John, Revelations, He is shown as a lamb that has been slain. These things show that Christ Jesus continues to offer the one sacrifice to the Father. Although the sacrifice is no longer a bloody sacrifice, i.e. there is no physical suffering, it is the sacrifice of His will to that of the Fathers. This offering is eternal because Christ is eternal. It is the one and same offering made on the cross, although now the physical suffering has passes since God is unchanging and outside of time and physical suffering need both. On the sacrifice of the Holy Cross heaven and earth kissed. It is true indeed that the Holy Mass is the perpetuation of the sacrifice of the Calvary in mystery throughout history. However, it is also true, since it is the resurrected Christ made present, that the Mass is a participation in the offering eternal presented to the Father in heaven. How else are we to understand the prayer asking for the Angel to take this sacrifice to your altar in Heaven? It is not the future vs the historical sacrifice. It is both and.

IMPORTANT: Using Content From Other Websites on ATS
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Posting the link to Father Ryan's writing and here is another response.

newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com...

Seraphim said...

Respectfully, Father, without disagreeing with anything said here, it would seem that two facts are overlooked or underemphasised - forgive me for repeating what the other comments have said:

(1) The Eucharist consecrated is the *glorified* Body of Christ, not the suffering (i.e., it is a mystical re-presentation). But this implies that the Eucharist does have eschatological connotations.

(2) Quoting St. Symeon of Thessaloniki regarding church architecture: "The narthex represents the earth, the nave heaven, and the sanctuary that which is above heaven." The structure of the church interior is itself eschatological.

IMPORTANT: Using Content From Other Websites on ATS
MOD NOTE: Posting work written by others

Originally posted by colbe
I wasn't referring to Catholic Answers FlyersFan.

No kidding. You said 'most of the responses disagree'.
So I went and found a bunch of people who agree.
There are a TON of people out there who say there is no mass in heaven.
And their theology is correct.

Originally posted by colbe
I never said "Sacraments" plural.

No kidding. The point is that NONE of the sacraments are needed in heaven. The Eucharist is a sacrament. Sacraments are tools for us to get to heaven with. Once there .. they are OBSOLETE.

Read the words in Revelation, they fit the Holy Mass.

No it doesn't. It fits a liturgy (prayer), but it doesn't fit the eucharist. There is no need of the Eucharist in heaven. We will already be perfectly united to Jesus. The Eucharist will be obsolete.

"Heaven and hell?", we're not discussing judgment.

We are discussing the fact that the sacrifice of the mass .. which is offered for sinners and in reparation for sin .. will not be needed because everyone will be in heaven or hell. Remember the words of the mass ... '

"Take this, all of you, and drink from it: for this is the chalice of my Blood, the Blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS"

With everyone in Heaven or Hell .. there will be no more 'forgiveness of sins' necessary.

And as the Catechism and the Mass clearly state, the Eucharist is only - UNTIL HE COMES.

"For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes."
Proclaiming his death .. UNTIL HE COMES.

Originally posted by colbe
A priest is a priest forever, what are they doing now in Heaven?

The reason a priest is a priest 'forever' is because the sacrament of Holy Orders TOUCHES THE SOUL. They are forever marked as 'another Jesus'. It has nothing to do with a job on earth. It's a spiritual change to the soul .. just like baptism and confirmation touches and changes the soul.

Catholicism

The Effects of the Sacrament:
The Sacrament of Holy Orders, like the Sacrament of Baptism and the Sacrament of Confirmation, can only be received once for each level of ordination. Once a man has been ordained, he is spiritually changed, which is the origin of the saying, "Once a priest, always a priest." He can be dispensed of his obligations as a priest (or even forbidden to act as a priest); but he remains a priest forever.

reply to post by colbe

Dude .. the 'eternal sacrifice' doesn't mean that there will be a eucharistic mass in heaven going on for all eternity. It means that each Eucharistic mass on earth will REACH INTO eternity. That Jesus sacrifice was so big (for lack of better words) that it can wipe out all sin .. everywhere .. for all time. And each Eucharist re-presents that sacrifice.

So again .. when everyone is in heaven or hell, there is no more need of sacrifice and no more need of 'forgiveness of sins'. We will already be in full communion with Jesus. The Eucharist will be obsolete.

reply to post by colbe

This persons response totally missed the mark.

BOTTOM LINE - Once everyone is in heaven or hell -

- Faith will be obsolete. Heaven is the fulfillment of earthly faith and those in hell have no faith. So no Baptists or Catholics or Jews or Buddhist or whatever in heaven. No 'faith' because heaven will have fulfilled faith.

- Hope will be obsolete. Heaven is the fulfullment of earthly hope and those in hell have no hope.

- The sacraments - all of them - will be obsolete. They are for getting us to heaven. Once there, there is no need of them.

- The words of the mass are specific stating that the Eucharist is offered 'for the forgiveness of sins'. Once everyone is in Heaven or Hell, there are no more sins and there will be no need for 'forgiveness of sins'. Therefore, the purpose of the Eucharist, as stated by the words of the mass itself, is obsolete.

- The Eucharist will be obsolete. Those in heaven will have the beatific vision and will be perfectly united to Jesus. There will be no need to receive him while he's masked in what looks like a piece of bread.

- There will be no Roman Catholic Church (or any other church). A new heaven and a new earth .. there will be no Rome (or NYC or Tehran or _____ ) so, with no Rome, there will be no Roman Catholic Church.

- A 'priest forever' refers to his soul being changed by Holy Orders. Just like Baptism and Confirmation touch the soul and change it. It has nothing to do with a priest making the Eucharist in heaven. It has to do with the soul and grace.

- The Catholic Catechism (and the words of the Mass itself) specifically states that the Eucharist will continue 'until He comes again'. That's it. Once Jesus returns .. no more Eucharistic Mass.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by colbe

 

Dude .. the 'eternal sacrifice' doesn't mean that there will be a eucharistic mass in heaven going on for all eternity. It means that each Eucharistic mass on earth will REACH INTO eternity. That Jesus sacrifice was so big (for lack of better words) that it can wipe out all sin .. everywhere .. for all time. And each Eucharist re-presents that sacrifice.

So again .. when everyone is in heaven or hell, there is no more need of sacrifice and no more need of 'forgiveness of sins'. We will already be in full communion with Jesus. The Eucharist will be obsolete.

reply to post by colbe

 

This persons response totally missed the mark.

Changing your story again FlyersFan. You originally denied the Holy Mass is offered in Heaven. Now you're saying "when everyone is in heaven or hell."

Maybe, the wonderful responses to Father Ryan helped you...a bit.

Prophecy helps us understand God's revelation, it warns and and prepares believers. Do not reject the messages from Heaven. The Protestant and Catholic messages are saying the same because there is ONE end time, not two or three or four, a separate end time for Catholics, Protestants, the Orthodox and non-Christians.

God is going to unite Christianity, the Orthodox and the
Protestants will be shown Roman Catholicism is the true
faith soon in the prophesied Great Warning.

The non-Christians will be shown too and they will convert if they choose. Pray, our prayers will help them.

Posting, a daily Protestant website for the messages:

ft111.com...


~ ~ ~

an excerpt:

Sunday, February 3, 2013: (St. Blaise)
Jesus said: “My people, in today’s Gospel of Luke the people of Nazareth were surprised to hear Me tell them that I was fulfilling Isaiah’s prophecy of one who would come and heal the blind and the sick. They had heard of My miracles of healing, but they did not realize how I received such power because they knew My parents and that I lived there. Because of their lack of faith, I could not heal people there, but only foreigners. I told them that a prophet is rarely accepted in his hometown. Because I insulted them that they did not want to believe in My healing gifts, they even tried to kill Me, but I walked through their midst. Even in your own mission, it is not easy for your people to believe in My messages because many do not want to hear hard messages of preparing for the end times. Your prayer group members have supported you, but others find it hard to believe. Do not be concerned if some people do not want to hear My messages from private revelation, but carry on with your mission of evangelizing souls, and warning people of the evil of the coming Antichrist."...

www.johnleary.com...

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by colbe
I wasn't referring to Catholic Answers FlyersFan.

No kidding. You said 'most of the responses disagree'.
So I went and found a bunch of people who agree.
There are a TON of people out there who say there is no mass in heaven.
And their theology is correct.

Originally posted by colbe
I never said "Sacraments" plural.

No kidding. The point is that NONE of the sacraments are needed in heaven. The Eucharist is a sacrament. Sacraments are tools for us to get to heaven with. Once there .. they are OBSOLETE.

Read the words in Revelation, they fit the Holy Mass.

they are OBSOLETE
No it doesn't. It fits a liturgy (prayer), but it doesn't fit the eucharist. There is no need of the Eucharist in heaven. We will already be perfectly united to Jesus. The Eucharist will be obsolete.

"Heaven and hell?", we're not discussing judgment.

We are discussing the fact that the sacrifice of the mass .. which is offered for sinners and in reparation for sin .. will not be needed because everyone will be in heaven or hell. Remember the words of the mass ... '

"Take this, all of you, and drink from it: for this is the chalice of my Blood, the Blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS"

With everyone in Heaven or Hell .. there will be no more 'forgiveness of sins' necessary.

And as the Catechism and the Mass clearly state, the Eucharist is only - UNTIL HE COMES.

"For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes."
Proclaiming his death .. UNTIL HE COMES.

Originally posted by colbe
A priest is a priest forever, what are they doing now in Heaven?

The reason a priest is a priest 'forever' is because the sacrament of Holy Orders TOUCHES THE SOUL. They are forever marked as 'another Jesus'. It has nothing to do with a job on earth. It's a spiritual change to the soul .. just like baptism and confirmation touches and changes the soul.

Catholicism

The Effects of the Sacrament:
The Sacrament of Holy Orders, like the Sacrament of Baptism and the Sacrament of Confirmation, can only be received once for each level of ordination. Once a man has been ordained, he is spiritually changed, which is the origin of the saying, "Once a priest, always a priest." He can be dispensed of his obligations as a priest (or even forbidden to act as a priest); but he remains a priest forever.

What about now and since 33 A.D.? Changed your opinion from now to future tense FF?

"Sacraments are tools for us to get to heaven with. Once there .. they are OBSOLETE"

"The Eucharist will be obsolete"

Your personal responses read like personal responses. It's your opinion. Address the original writing you posted from Father Ryan, specifically the responses to his writing. I can post one again, take it apart..sentence by sentence, your usual custom. You ignore those responses, you don't have a rebuttal.

Why is there an altar in Heaven? Why does Revelation show the Heavenly liturgy in verse after verse like the Holy Mass here? Where does it say in Scripture, in Tradition, in the Catechism, the sainted priests in Heaven do NOT offer the Holy Mass?


God bless you,

Originally posted by colbe
Posting the link to Father Ryan's writing and here is another response.

newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com...

Seraphim said...

Respectfully, Father, without disagreeing with anything said here, it would seem that two facts are overlooked or underemphasised - forgive me for repeating what the other comments have said:

(1) The Eucharist consecrated is the *glorified* Body of Christ, not the suffering (i.e., it is a mystical re-presentation). But this implies that the Eucharist does have eschatological connotations.

(2) Quoting St. Symeon of Thessaloniki regarding church architecture: "The narthex represents the earth, the nave heaven, and the sanctuary that which is above heaven." The structure of the church interior is itself eschatological.

IMPORTANT: Using Content From Other Websites on ATS
MOD NOTE: Posting work written by others

edit on Fri Feb 8 2013 by DontTreadOnMe because: (no reason given)

I shared the link earlier, here it is again, I forgot to post it every time. FlyersFan first quoted from Father Ryan's writing at his blog. Notice the comments to follow...

newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com...

Originally posted by colbe
Changed your opinion from now to future tense FF?
"Sacraments are tools for us to get to heaven with. Once there .. they are OBSOLETE"
"The Eucharist will be obsolete"

Seriously dude .. learn to speak english. Once in heaven, they ARE obsolete ... the eucharist WILL BE obsolete .. BOTH ARE CORRECT ENGLISH ... and both are correct theology.

It's your opinion.

No .. it's basic THEOLOGY. And it's correct.

Why is there an altar in Heaven?

Why is there a 10 headed monster in Revelation? Do you think there really will be a giant 10 headed monster running around the planet? It's called IMAGERY that is something the viewer can understand to make a point. The point being that there is prayer offered to God in Heaven.

Why does Revelation show the Heavenly liturgy in verse after verse like the Holy Mass here?

Already said .. there will be 'liturgy' (prayer) in heaven.

Where does it say in Scripture, in Tradition, in the Catechism, the sainted priests in Heaven do NOT offer the Holy Mass?

ALREADY ANSWERED .. the mass itself .. the catechism ..

'The words of the mass - the Eucharist offered UNTIL HE COMES AGAIN"
and
The Precious Blood offered ' FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS"

When everyone is in heaven or hell, Jesus will have come again and there will be no more sins to forgive. The mass itself and the catchism say these words ... it's right in front of you.

Originally posted by colbe
Prophecy helps us understand God's revelation, it warns and and prepares believers. Do not reject the messages from Heaven.

You haven't posted any messages from heaven.
Christ's Church on Earth has rejected everything you have posted.

Originally posted by colbe
You originally denied the Holy Mass is offered in Heaven. Now you're saying "when everyone is in heaven or hell."

WRONG. My first post was very clear ..
"The Mass will only take place until Jesus returns. After that, there is no need."
That's exactly what I said FIRST THING

Now you are just being obtuse.

Originally posted by colbe
I disagree FlyersFan, someone else add your thoughts on the subject. The Holy Mass, the "continual sacrifice" is offered in Heaven and on earth.

A bit late to the party (been on holiday, sorry) but no -- there is no Mass in heaven (well, no Eucharist, anyway). Catechism aside, that makes zero sense. Jesus is in heaven, why would we need to participate in the Eucharist if we're there with him?

Maybe not at the moment of death but everyone in Heaven is Roman Catholic.

Again, you probably don't think statements like this are insensitive, but they are highly offensive to non-Roman Catholics -- as I said, it was things like this that turned me off from the church, and it was only after I learned that this sort of thing is contrary to official church teaching that I was open to conversion.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by colbe
I disagree FlyersFan, someone else add your thoughts on the subject. The Holy Mass, the "continual sacrifice" is offered in Heaven and on earth.

A bit late to the party (been on holiday, sorry) but no -- there is no Mass in heaven (well, no Eucharist, anyway). Catechism aside, that makes zero sense. Jesus is in heaven, why would we need to participate in the Eucharist if we're there with him?

Maybe not at the moment of death but everyone in Heaven is Roman Catholic.

Again, you probably don't think statements like this are insensitive, but they are highly offensive to non-Roman Catholics -- as I said, it was things like this that turned me off from the church, and it was only after I learned that this sort of thing is contrary to official church teaching that I was open to conversion.

We disagree, no hard feelings adjensen. We're persevering, hoping for Heaven so we shall see.
The Heavenly liturgy spoken of in Revelation sounds like the Mass, maybe it is different, a higher worship because Our Lord is there. Scott Hahn, a Catholic apologist explains, the earthly liturgy is a reflection of Heaven's liturgy.

Regarding if Heaven is Roman Catholic, it sure is, it is the one and only faith. Officially, everyone in one way or another is saved by the faith.

The Remnant is Roman Catholic.

We gotta keep the discussion going (the thread topic)...thank you...to help everyone and non-Christians to...to come to the faith.

Do not worry about people being offended, think of God, how He is offended by our silence. The Protestant prophetic has NEVER said the Remnant is non-Catholic, whatever you wish to believe Protestantism. And it isn't Orthodox. Almost 16 years I have been aware, the daily messages from Heaven state the Remnant is Roman Catholic.

God is going to make it happen, no more division. It will still be everyone's yes or no, your choice to accept what God shows you personally during the Great Warning (Rev 6:15-17). It is the 2nd Pentecost. Heaven says it is "soon" and urgently so we best prepare.

I love how you help truejew, you don't give up on him. He has helped Catholics and our brothers and sisters in Christ look for all the Gospel verses referring to the Trinity.


colbe

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by colbe
Prophecy helps us understand God's revelation, it warns and and prepares believers. Do not reject the messages from Heaven.

You haven't posted any messages from heaven.
Christ's Church on Earth has rejected everything you have posted.

Originally posted by colbe
You originally denied the Holy Mass is offered in Heaven. Now you're saying "when everyone is in heaven or hell."

WRONG. My first post was very clear .. "The Mass will only take place until Jesus returns. After that, there is no need."
That's exactly what I said FIRST THING

Now you are just being obtuse.

You are not clear FF.

I read, you don't disagree, there is a Holy Mass offered in Heaven. Your sentence DOESN'T say the Mass "on earth" will only take place until Jesus returns. Please explain...

How do you know specifically all of God's plans after the Final Judgment or before, during the Millennial reign? I left the rest of your opinion alone, it is so far fetched, no need to comment.

God bless you,

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Colbe posted that there will be Holy Mass in heaven and that everyone will be Roman Catholic.

That is theologically incorrect and is NOT in accord with Catholic teaching.
The Mass will only take place until Jesus returns. After that, there is no need.
The Mass is based on faith. There is no 'faith' in heaven.
No 'Catholic' faith either. Faith is gone.
The Beatific Vision does away with the need for 'faith'.
Faith is the anticipation of what will come. The Beatific Vision is there. No more anticipation.
Therefore, there will be no Catholics (or Baptists or Lutherans or ____ ) in heaven.
There will only be people with fulfilled faith in God.

Originally posted by colbe
Regarding if Heaven is Roman Catholic, it sure is, it is the one and only faith.

Dude .. what part of 'there is no faith or hope in heaven' don't you get?
Faith and hope are the expectation of heaven to come.
Being in heaven FULFILLS faith and hope. They become obsolete.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Originally posted by colbe
How do you know specifically all of God's plans after the Final Judgment or before, during the Millennial reign?

We have the words of the Mass and the teaching of the Church.
The communion cup is offered 'for the forgiveness of sins".
There is no forgiveness of sins needed in heaven or hell ..
The eucharist is offered 'until he comes again".
When we are all in heaven or hell .. He will have come again.
THAT SAYS IT ALL. It's basic. It's common sense. It's Catholic theology.
It's easy to understand if you put your ego aside and see what the church says.

I left the rest of your opinion alone, it is so far fetched, no need to comment.

Again .. it's not my "opinion" .. it's basic Catholic Theology.
Take a Catholic college theology course .. or become a third order Carmelite (like I did).
Then you'll learn it.


SIDE NOTE - last night my husband was looking at some of these ATS threads. He just shook his head and said that he wouldn't bother responding because 'it's like trying to talk to a tomato'. I have to agree. I'm done on this thread. It's useless to attempt to educate people who don't want to be educated. Bu-bye.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by colbe
How do you know specifically all of God's plans after the Final Judgment or before, during the Millennial reign?

We have the words of the Mass and the teaching of the Church.
The communion cup is offered 'for the forgiveness of sins".
There is no forgiveness of sins needed in heaven or hell ..
The eucharist is offered 'until he comes again".
When we are all in heaven or hell .. He will have come again.
THAT SAYS IT ALL. It's basic. It's common sense. It's Catholic theology.
It's easy to understand if you put your ego aside and see what the church says.

I left the rest of your opinion alone, it is so far fetched, no need to comment.

Again .. it's not my "opinion" .. it's basic Catholic Theology.
Take a Catholic college theology course .. or become a third order Carmelite (like I did).
Then you'll learn it.


SIDE NOTE - last night my husband was looking at some of these ATS threads. He just shook his head and said that he wouldn't bother responding because 'it's like trying to talk to a tomato'.

I have to agree. I'm done on this thread. It's useless to attempt to educate people who don't want to be educated. Bu-bye.

You still didn't answer, is the Holy Mass offered in Heaven "until He comes again."

Reply, what about until then FlyersFan?

The Final Judgment is a long time off. And there is Christ's middle coming soon, His spiritual coming,

The above is personal opinion and so is this, your original. We will just disagree, look up, soon, we'll all know.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Colbe posted that there will be Holy Mass in heaven and that everyone will be Roman Catholic.

That is theologically incorrect and is NOT in accord with Catholic teaching.
The Mass will only take place until Jesus returns. After that, there is no need.
The Mass is based on faith. There is no 'faith' in heaven.
No 'Catholic' faith either. Faith is gone.
The Beatific Vision does away with the need for 'faith'.
Faith is the anticipation of what will come. The Beatific Vision is there. No more anticipation.
Therefore, there will be no Catholics (or Baptists or Lutherans or ____ ) in heaven.
There will only be people with fulfilled faith in God.

David Anders, the gentleman in the OP, was Protestant and became Catholic hosts EWTN Open Line radio
program on Thursdays. He takes calls from Protestants. The hour show comes on at 3:00 p.m. Eastern time. Check
your local Catholic radio station or listen on line or listen another day to the taped program.

www.ewtn.com...