Do you subscribe to the idea of Nationality?

I've been reading posts on this site for a long time but have only recently joined.

One thing I have noticed when people are debating, especially since the gun control arguments gained prominence, is that people will sometimes defend or attack an argument or opinion based on nationality.

Now, I was born in the UK and have lived here all my life. I am British, but I really don't know what that means.

I didn't choose to be born here any more than you chose to be born where you are from. Am I a better person for being British as opposed to say someone from a Third World country? Am I a worse person for it? A luckier person?

There have been some great people born in this country. Churchill, Newton, Shakespeare, Darwin,,,Lennon. We have great poets, great engineers, authors, leaders, sportspeople. These are all people who as a country we hold in great esteem and to any other country we say, this is us...and I can safely say I have had no influence over any of them.

We have a government that will lie to get what it wants, be that the invasion of another country (New Labour) or the promise that though times may be hard, we are all in it together (Conservatives). I keep myself appraised of current events so I can vote intelligently in every election by knowing what each party stands for (allegedly)...but you know what...I can safely say I have no influence over any of them.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Nationality is a fake construct. National pride a perverse thing designed to keep people in line. I didn't choose to be British, I didn't choose to be subject to this particular set of social norms and experiences...it was was chance that I am the way I am. Everything I am has been influenced by where I have been brought up, yet I seem unable to personally have any effect on it.

I have seen many posts where people have argued a position based on past events. I can safely say that no Brit I know had anything to do with the cruelty the British Empire inflicted on the world...the same way I doubt any Americans on here had anything to do with the dropping of nukes or Germans posters anything to do with the Nazis.

Most of us work. We will work all our lives cause the systems we reside in require it. We will pay our taxes cause the system requires it. We are batteries.

So, I ask again...what does it mean to be British? Or American? Or any of the other nationalities from around the world.

Im British too, i think it means less and less every year to be of this nationality.

The British used to be far more proud 50 years or more ago, we keep bowing to EU demands and we lose more and more by being too, for the want of a better word, soft.

Im not a nationalist in the strictest sense, but our general nation pride is being diluted by immigrants and politicians at a steady rate. The pride individuals had or have for a once great nation is being effected by the world stage, a desire to be accepted by the rest of the world and a need to be seen as a caring but powerful nation, yet losing what it really means to be a solid contender as a confident nation.

Im proud to be British but i think we are held back by the new age of world news and information, the people are now listening to world news from other country's rather than our own (perhaps propaganda style) newspapers and news/political outlets. I think the average person from an average country would rather say they are a person of the world than of a country.

So nationalism is slipped and its both good and bad, as the world progresses into the information age and the advent of the internet. People are more aware than ever of world events rather than blinkered by their own country's intent and will.

It would be nice if we could see ourselves as a single species on a single rock. Why is there such a prevalent need to belittle or even hate another because they live on a different plot of land? We all have the same ancestry whether through evolution or creationism.

To show the real absurdity of it all, how about those who will harm others over something as arbitrary as choosing which sports team to like.

Originally posted by Biigs

The British used to be far more proud 50 years or more ago, we keep bowing to EU demands and we lose more and more by being too, for the want of a better word, soft.

Im not a nationalist in the strictest sense, but our general nation pride is being diluted by immigrants and politicians at a steady rate.

50 years ago there were many people alive who had fought in WW2. They had something to be proud of, they had done something for the country...or at the least, knew someone who had. They had seen an ideal and stood against it. They were probably the last group as a generation to be proud.

Also, Immigration doesn't effect national pride. Immigrants get a bad press for being lazy and stealing jobs but in my experience, the same people are unemployed now as were 30 years ago...Immigrants have more pride than many homegrown Brits.

I don't blame them for wanting to come here...why shouldn't they. As I already said, I didn't choose to be born here as they didn't choose to be born where they were. Politicians should more rigidly enforce immigration laws but if I was born abroad, especially in a poorer country, and I saw an opportunity here that was available to me I would take it...wouldn't you?

reply to post by Jykan


Oh i did not mean that immigrants were lazy and that was a reason for a decline in a sense of national pride, many work hard and bring future generations up here - i have NO problem with this at all, however those that do do not know the history or political back and forth that got us to where we are. This lack of knowledge leans to the dilution of the national affiliation, its their future generations that add to the country's sense of nationality.

I consider my nationality British, but what that really means to me is slipping as the worlds populations shift around.

50 years from now if all goes "well", i expect people will be more proud to be human, rather than proud to be specifically affiliated to a specific country, and therefore a reduction in a need to feel part of one nation, and therefore the need to identify ones self with a nation.

Nationality is an interesting concept, its s not a “fake” construct it is a construct of society.

The notion of a “nation” does not have any true definition, in the way that a state does. The very nature of nationality means that its very much dependent of ones perception of the world around them. So for example yes you are a “British citizen” this is a fact however you may regard yourself as a “English” or “Scottish” national but then you might also class being a “Londoner” as counting as your nationality.

Although a true definition of nationality is elusive it is generally accepted that a Nation is a group of people who shear a geographical are (not necessarily the same as the area of the state) and shear a history, culture, language and religion.

I personally call myself “Scottish” as such I would say that means I was born in the land known as “Scotland” like my ancestors before me (Geography), it means that I where tartan on occasion and drink whisky listen to Scottish music go to ceilis (culture) visiting the castles know about the politics and so on (history), it means I speak English but also know a little bit of Gallic (language) and that I am Christian. The nation comes from a combination of all of these things that I shear with the people in my geographical location that I call “Scotland”. If however you where to ask someone who lives in the Shetland’s they may give you a description that says the regard themselves and being Scandinavian. They are still British citizens yet the see their nationality as Scandinavian.

As for what it means to be “British”….. I would say a passport.

reply to post by Jykan

People tend to confuse Patriotism with Nationalism (although they are related sentiments, they really are not the same) and, before you know it, with Racism.
National identity and tollerance / respect for diversity can not only coexist, but are even mutually dependent in my opinion.
How can I respect anyones traditions and history if I can't respect and honor my own?

National identity is NOT Racism.

I know it's important to a lot of ats members and I feel slightly guilty for not sharing the same same nationalism. It's just something that has never been really important, except at sporting events, Olympics, World Cup etc. I don't know why it is that I don't feel that nationalistic, just something that's never been that prominent in my life.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


I agree. But that's kind of my point. You didn't choose, you were assimilated at birth. We all are to one degree or another. Nationality defines us, not the other way round.

It means you had the distinct honor of being born between some lines someone once drew on a map. Nationalism is a disease.

Originally posted by Biigs
reply to post by Jykan

 

Oh i did not mean that immigrants were lazy and that was a reason for a decline in a sense of national pride, many work hard and bring future generations up here - i have NO problem with this at all, however those that do do not know the history or political back and forth that got us to where we are. This lack of knowledge leans to the dilution of the national affiliation, its their future generations that add to the country's sense of nationality.

I didn't mean to make out you did...was just poor phrasing on my part.

I work in a poorer part of the North East, and there however, that attitude is very common.

reply to post by Jykan


Well say you moved to China for 25 years, you got a Chinese passport, you learned to speak mandarin, started eating nothing bout Chinese food, reading Chinese history and you married a Chinese person.

If you felt like you were “Chinese” after that rather than “British” then I would say you are “Chinese” to some extent.

None can every have a choice on where we are born, I am happy I was born in such a wonderful nation and generous state. I could have been born into poverty in the Congo.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


I was just about to post that. Pretty much sums up my perspective .

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


I think you're missing my point. Why should I feel proud to be British? I do feel lucky...very lucky. But I had nothing to do with it, I didn't have to work for it, I don't really have a say in it. I have nothing really invested in it.

reply to post by Jykan


Are you talking about being a “British” national or a “British” citizen.

Define the difference.

reply to post by Jykan


That is quite a complex question, I am about to head off to bed but if I remember I might come back to this tomorrow.

You should find stuff on Google about it, the two are very different though.

Nationalism may very well be the death of us all.

Originally posted by Jykan
Define the difference.

One is driven by devotion, a high regard, awareness and respect for a people, their respective traditions, their history, their culture and their values in a specific region.

The other one is driven by ignorance and hatred and claims that one race is superior to all others and regards other races as less worthy or even unworthy to live.

That's a huge difference in my book.

I'm a Canadian but I identify myself as a Manitoban first, what benefits my life, my neighbours and my province trumps that of other regions of Canada and the rest of the world. I believe in small governments with mutual trade of goods and ideas between nations or cultural groups.