SEAL Team Six Helicopter Crash: Let’s Debunk a Myth….

reply to post by spooky24


That's what I figured re: picture, but hope springs eternal.

Love the Marlboro analogy, btw

Also interesting about the base being on high-alert today. Does that happen often? If not, then something is clearly afoot, drill or otherwise.

Thanks for the info, and keep us posted as to what's going on with the alert if you find out anything about it.

reply to post by randomname


What exactly did Bin Laden do again? He was never officially wanted in connection with 9/11.

Back on topic. I believe that you have stated many facts here and presented them in a logical manner. The only "hole" I see is that, like you said, no one knows who was on the team that killed Bin Laden nor do we know for sure that they weren't the same people that died in the helicopter crash.

Conspiracies, like life, will find a way.

Great thread though!

Oh you're talking truth..
No wonder this was so well laid out.

I was wondering why the 68 replies brought 18 Flags.
(now 19) But then it hit me; you have no mention of
Obama killing and eating the special forces members .
That'll bring 70 replies 140 flags
Facts ? Meh.. Not so much.

reply to post by spooky24


I am not going to say you are wrong in anything you said because I know you are correct, I do however take issue with your response.

You have written the entire thing like you were arguing against something I was stating, This thread is just me pointing out that the guys who took part in Neptune Spear were not on that helicopter yet your response to me is like i have been saying "no the dog was not called Ciro" or making similar incorrect statements.

I have the utmost respect for your knowledge when it comes to this topic, but please, do not post like your the only guy who has a extensive library of 9/11 and Al-Qa'ida literature, dont just presume that I am wrong and you have the counter argument. Its incredibly arrogant of you to just assume I must be wrong and it comes across as very patronizing.

You are not the only one on ATS with a vast amount of background knowledge on terrorism, please do not treat me like of of those "9/11 was the jews" guys.

Like you I also happen to know what i am talking about, you and i have participated in enough threads together by now i would think to have some mutual respect.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


I'm still looking for where you debunked something ? Anything ?

I have another conspiracy theory. These men were "sheep dipped" for a covert unit so they had to "die" before they were deployed in that unit.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


I don't think you have debunked much of anything. You have proven how naive you are, however .
The bottom line is, the parents say they were SEAL TEAM 6....and VP Biden said SEAL TEAM SIX supposedly killed Bin Laden (I think Bin Laden was already dead and Obama staged the hit to make it appear he got Bin Laden when Bin Laden was dead years earlier.)

Oh and BTW-
That old guy you see watching Bin Laden on TV- that guy it turns out in reality was a man that came forward later saying it was his grandfather.

Why was there no suppression of the known enemy positions from which the fatal attack was launched? Extortion 17 attempted a landing 3 ½ hours into an intense firefight.
Why transport 25 Seals and special ops troops together in a combat situation in a Chinook helicopter, a slow-moving transport helicopter which was totally inappropriate for this type of engagement?
Why was no cover provided through support aircraft at any time, during the mission into a live fire hot zone, in violation of standard protocol?
Why did the U.S. Military invite a Muslim imam to pray over (desecrate) the bodies, pronouncing that the “infidels” are lesser than the Muslims, that the Muslims are the winners and that the “infidels” are damned to Hell for eternity?
Why is the obama regime silent on the desecration of bodies of American service men but outraged at Koran burnings or service men urinating on dead Taliban?
Why were all of the bodies cremated and the explanation given that the bodies were burned beyond recognition when there is photographic evidence that at least some of the victim’s bodies were easily identifiable?
Why were the seven Afghani troops originally on the flight changed at the last minute with seven others with no changes made to the flight manifest? Were they part of a plot that brought down the Chinook?
Who ordered the Afghani troop change and for what reason?
Why were the two flight data recorders supposedly not recovered from the crash site? A claim that a flash flood washed them away was given to the families. If these boxes can be recovered from an ocean bottom, how much of an obstacle can a desert flash flood, if it actually occurred, really be?
Intelligence had indicated on May 11th, ten days after the killing of Osama Bin Laden, that over 100 additional Taliban fighters were in the area of the crash seeking specifically to exact revenge for the Bin Laden killing. Yet the military still sent these troops in unprotected into a live firefight. Who made this decision?
Why do the rules of engagement place a greater value on the “winning of hearts and minds of the enemy” than on the life of the service man/woman?
Why do protocols require the admittedly Taliban infiltrated Afghan National Army, Afghan National Police and Afghan Security Ministry to be involved in all planning of all special operations including flight routes and landing zones? This is the same as giving our operational plans directly to the enemy.
What was the urgency that necessitated this last minute operation? Supposedly this was an urgent mission but no explanation or evidence has been provided to indicate why.
Why were no members of Afghan military questioned during the investigation or in the writing of the investigative report of the crash? If they are so valuable that they must be included in every planning, one would think they might be valuable in the investigation as well. Perhaps some light could have been shed on the seven mystery Afghan soldiers and the story around the switch.
How did Taliban know on May 11th, ten days after the killing of Bin Laden that seal team six or coalition force as they described it, would be an available target in Tangi Valley? Was it information provided by the Afghan military?
No pathfinders were available in advance of the crash and the drone eye in the sky quit working at the time of the crash. The U.S. military also claims it did not know the identity of the helicopter that crashed for ten minutes. What caused the multi-layered surveillance and communications black out?
After the crash, over one hundred U.S. military troops descended on the area, including pathfinders. Why were they not available before?

I am rather sick of naive people saying there is nothing here- when clearly there is- but- please just go back to your sheep duties, and kissing Obama's butt.

reply to post by Lorna



I don't know where you copied that from but it rambles on and on about things that are meaningless or simply made up. I have an idea for you-why don't you memorize all that and and stand in front of the visitor center here at the base-the home of the 101st-and spout out all that nonsense and disrespect for the Commander in Chief.

You will get there attention for sure!

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin

I saw this for the first time and wanted to add support. A squadron in a regiment is the same as a battalion in a brigade. A squadron/battalion in any regular line unit could be anywhere from 300 to 800 personnel. Even if DEVGRP squadrons are much smaller there is no way the entire squadron was on a chinook or participated in a single raid. It is presumed that DEVGRP is equivocal in size to the Army's CAG. If accurate that would put the group at 200-400 at any point in history, or 50+ per squadron! not counting support assets.

reply to post by bonecrusher321


Thanks for the support dude!

You seem to know your stuff which makes you one of the few who does know the difference between DEVGRU and Seal Team 2 for example. I joined ATS not long after the events of operation Neptune spear but i was about when Extortion 117 crashed, the lack of understanding that members had of tier one units amazed me. I think it is a testament to Richard Marcinko's vision that even in 2011 the name "Seal Team Six" seemed to confuse people. Members at the time were talking about it like a soccer team, as if Seal Team Six was a "team" of twenty or so guys rather than essentially a full regiment and did not have a clue what DEVGRU actually was. As a result when they heard about the crash they (and many others online) assumed that it was this same "team" of 20 or so guys who where killed that took out Geronimo, its understandable when you account for there ignorance regarding the units structure, which is not surprising when talking about such a secretive group.

Thanks again.

A squadron in a regiment is the same as a battalion in a brigade. A squadron/battalion in any regular line unit could be anywhere from 300 to 800 personnel

That is very true however many details of the forward, support and rear positions were never released to the public. I understand the importance of not presenting the framework of the assault for public consumption-as I'm sure you do as well.

In footnote 181 in Bergen's work the possibility that, as a concern for President Obama "end up having some 2 dozen Navy SEAL's in a Pakistan prison" The forward 'defense position' (that was not released to the public) consisted of 8 Chinooks and related teams. This was certainly a squadron however the raw numbers will never be known. Where ever these staging areas were they were without a doubt in an area of absolute nothingness that makes up most of Pakistan.

reply to post by spooky24


It likely would not be the whole squadron. An element that size does not move without support elements. There would be a number of para rescue for SAR, mechanics for air assets , SOAR support, interrogators from 3 letter organizations or the Army and/or the Corps, analysts and other MI personnel, legal and behavioral health for interrogation, a number of "s" shop personnel, and the basic command structure and staff that are not operators. Even if the mass of the squadron went forward a QRF reserve of their own personnel would be staged at a larger base, as has always been SOP. They would have a contingent of support remain with them. Even a small A-team, like the one I worked with, had a mechanic and a couple of non 18 series support staff. Whether regular unit or SMU, an element that size cannot function without support personnel.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin

Hey no problem. Since I've had to cover it, sorta, I'll add in something else for the readers. Any U.S. Military unit has support personnel numbering from around 20% to over a 100% of the personnel used in that units main mission. In this case operators. In other cases could be MI, MP, infantry, personnel etc. in SMU they usually belong to a support company and are sliced out accordingly, as needed. This could easily double the strength, by numbered personnel, of any type of unit. For ex., back in the late 90s the requirement to fill an infantry company was 129 men. 27 of them were support personnel. In a unit with any type of vehicle or aircraft, that number becomes greater. That's just internal, about 20%. Once you add in motor pool mechanics, "s" shops etc. as in the case being discussed, the percentage becomes far greater.

reply to post by bonecrusher321



OK I see what your getting at. The forward, middle and rear-we can call them 'companies' would also have logistics support. That makes sense however these somewhat secret companies were formed because the Commander in Chief did not want the interdiction squads left in a situation in which they would have to fight their way out. So, these back up companies were supported enough by I guess 'field teams' so that they could-and this would have been a nightmare-fight their way in and bring the SEAL teams out by whatever force necessary.

Since you seem to know just how much would be required of these companies to "fight their way in and bring the SEAL teams out"

I mean a Pakistan military base was a half a mile from the extraction teams. Lets say the forward company was told the interdiction squads are trapped and hunkered down-how would they have approached the mission?

Something I have always wondered about.

Anyone have any thoughts on my previous couple posts on the subject? I know it's been a while, but I thought I laid out some pretty strange things that happened that day, all of which could not possibly be a coincidence, and yet nobody has even touched it.

Well thought out theory Op.And more possible than many presented here.I myself still have a problem believing that someone hit one of our copters in flight with an RPG?Not a stinger mind you,a RPG??

reply to post by TDawg61


It is the same weapon that brought down Super 61 and others in Somalia in the 1990s. And they were orbiting. This helicopter was about to land when it was hit so it was almost in a hover.

reply to post by JohnnySasaki

Some family members believe the Americans were betrayed by the Afghan government, that someone tipped off the Taliban.

I guess you could say that is possible however war is like that. I just have a hard time finding any rational comment to all you posted. Try to remember that armies always speak a different language that those they are protecting. I don't expect to be told every single detail about every single mission by black operators, CIA squads, infiltration teams or any other covert action.

The two rules of war are clear.

rule 1 young men die.
rule 2 there is nothing you can do about rule number one.

There is so much supposition in the post it's really hard to comment on.

spooky24
reply to post by JohnnySasaki

 

Some family members believe the Americans were betrayed by the Afghan government, that someone tipped off the Taliban.

I guess you could say that is possible however war is like that. I just have a hard time finding any rational comment to all you posted. Try to remember that armies always speak a different language that those they are protecting. I don't expect to be told every single detail about every single mission by black operators, CIA squads, infiltration teams or any other covert action.

The two rules of war are clear.

rule 1 young men die.
rule 2 there is nothing you can do about rule number one.

There is so much supposition in the post it's really hard to comment on.

Well there's going to be supposition just due to the nature of the topic at hand. However, I find it odd that you pick one of the few (if not only) comments from the families, which are of course opinions (but if you look at the facts, they seem to back it up anyway).

As you seem to have a difficult time deciding which of the myriad of "suppositional" points/facts I presented, I'll give you a quick list you ca skim over and if you find one that peaks your interest, you can go back to my original post again and read up on it further.

0. First off, not even entirely on the topic at hand, but I posted a video (from the Pakistani news service) from a witness to the Bin Laden raids, and he (and apparently multitudes of others) says it didn't happen the way we were told it happened. But again, slightly off topic, but I believe I was referring to a theory someone else had on the "accident".

I'd also like to state that I posted a lot of content to back up my points, and also a link to the original article from the washington post.

1. The mission did not require Team Six in the first place (not even close). The Rangers, already on the ground, requested an immediate reaction force to gather up some taliban they were after. As it turns out, the guy they were after "Oari Tahir", wasn't even in the same village that night anyway. (There's a full write-up on it on my previous posts)

2. They rarely scramble a Immediate Reaction Force, especially for situations like this. What's more, if they do, it's probably not likely to be a Tier 1 unit. (again, a full quote that explains it much further in my previous posts)

3. They used the wrong chopper, and it wasn't flown by Nightstalkers. They used the CH-47D Chinook (you know; huge, slow, twin rotors, giant target, etc, etc), when we now know damn well they have stealth blackhawks, or (as I assume they don't have a whole lot of them available at any given time) just a regular blackhawk, or a little bird, either of which should have been flown by spec ops aviators. Even if it was, the Chinook might as well have a giant bulls-eye painted on the sides for would be launchers of RPGs. I say that because it's slow and a huge target.

4. Extortion 17 had no escorts. Usually, especially when you're flying a giant, unarmed cargo ship into a hot landing zone, you have Apache helicopter escorts. Not only were there no escorts, but the Apaches already on the scene didn't divert to clear Extortion 17's landing zone.

5. There were 7 Afghan soldiers on board Extortion 17, and all of their names in the manifest were wrong.

6. As if by some huge coincidence, the Taliban fighters shifted locations to a spot overlooking Extortion 17's landing zone (only 150yds away) just minutes before it arrived. A landing zone never used by the Americans before.

7. On top of all that, some soldiers were cremated without authorization and seemingly without being needed to.


And there's probably a lot more too. Like I said btw, my other posts have the quotes that back up my claims, as well as the link to the article.

No Conspiracy here , just another day in the warzone.. you know , the zone where the ENEMY CAN SHOOT BACK ..

Here's a real world example based on historical fact :

how many of you remember the world war 2 incident where a battalion of US troops exhausted from the day's march set camp in between hedgerow in france without setting a night guard.. on the hedgerows were the experienced german infantry company who silently form an L shaped ambush and when everyone asleep they iniitiate the ambush and destroyed the whole battalion.

complacency ? laziness ? overconfidence ? underestimating the enemy ?

it is war and the enemy also human being who can think like you. underestimating them will lead to such incident.

US military infanty cannot perform without their usual air support and altilery support. Unlike the freedom fighters of afghanistan even with their lack of arms , no airsupport and no arty they still defeat the US military at the end.

lesson learned here ? no matter how much material and stuff your soldiers got, the most important thing is MORALE which the taliban got aplenty.. NEVER UNDERESTIMATE YOUR ENEMY