British forces to be equipped with Glock pistols for protection in Afghanistan

Thanks for the education on the pro's of this Glock over the Browning.

I must admit, despite the fact i don't shoot any more, the handgun is what i miss the most. When you had it with you daily for that many years, you felt naked without it.

CX.

Originally posted by Neocrusader
The Brits have been using the glock for years now
It just depended on who you were working for but more importantly your role
The browning 9mm ( high power in china ) has remained the standard side arm for many trades
With the sig 226 being phased in and issued to dismounted close combat troops ( combat infantry ) for atleast 7 years
But from what I can gather the contract isn't getting renewed with sig and your now going to switch to the glock

The Glock has never been issued as a military pistol apart from limited numbers to the men in black a few years ago as a trial thing when they were looking at a new pistol. The SIG was chosen by UKSF as the company did quite a good deal with Hereford/Poole, who have their own budget.

But it's just another expense on you guys
Not only the money spent on the sigs themselves but also all the ancillaries
Like cleaning kits
Simunition conversion kits
Moulded holsters
Drop legs
Ect ect
All kit that's gonna have to be re bought for the glocks

Cleaning kits were not bought specifically for the SIGs. They were the old Browning ones.
Simunition kits are part of the initial deal. Simunition is very rare in the British Army anyway outside the CQB course.
The current issue holster for the SIG is the Blackhawk drop leg, which fits the Glock. I only hope they replace it though as it is a bit of a nause to use.

Much of the kit for the pistols are supplied initially and are part of the maintainance deal.

Truth be told the pistols will probably spend their lives in the armoury until broken out for deployment just like our current ones. When not actively deployed or on specific courses most soldiers only see pistols to clean them for the monthly inspections.

reply to post by PaddyInf


Soz but I'm going to have to disagree with you

The glock has been issued to your SF but also personel on certain training and mentoring tasks, certain escort duties, in other theatres and a few other bits and pieces - admitadly not widespread .......but they are in the system and are used by conventional forces

The sig cleaning kits
They originally came with them in their case - the little slot in the bottom corner - it is a blue tube container - marked up as sig - with cleaning rod/tampon ancillaries contained within .......problem was they tend to get nicked
So replacements needed to be bought
Yes 1 9mm cleaning kit is much the same as the next ........and possible some units withheld the sig cleaning kit and issued the old browning one to prevent these losses/thefts

Simunition kits
Yep fair one not many required .......generally 40 per training establishment
But I was unaware that they were coming as part of the deal

The blackhawk dropleg for the sig will not accept the glock ......infact I just tried it to double make sure
If you don't get on with the serpas may I recommend a personal perchase of a fobus holster - very good
Infact that's what my 226 is in in my avatar ( left chest )

And I have just confirmed that the glock blackhawk dropleg holsters are coming as part of the package

I'm currently in the UK as an instructor/advisor in one of your new op Odin/CQB schools and an instructor/advisor on your new ITAT course ( insider threat awareness ) counter green on blue )

Loved your input before though....just had to disagree with you on these points


Big shout out to the WMIK/jackal posse
The only way to roll on ops

....and it won't really stop any more attacks by pissed off Afghans in army or police uniforms than the SA-80 will, which the article seems to hint at. If it's holstered, as you would expect, reaction time to drawing it and opening fire, as opposed to grabbing your loaded SA-80 is still going to be an issue when someone within a few yards suddenly opens up on you.

Why didn't they just report that the forces were retiring all the old Hi-Powers and replacing them with newer equipment, which is the actual story here, instead of going into explaining a particular scenario which is meaningless?

Must be another slow news day I guess!

Originally posted by PaddyInf

The Glock has never been issued as a military pistol apart from limited numbers to the men in black a few years ago as a trial thing when they were looking at a new pistol. The SIG was chosen by UKSF as the company did quite a good deal with Hereford/Poole, who have their own budget.

Our close protection units (RMP) have used Glocks too along with the SIG. If i remember rightly, some were using the P7M13 when i was in years ago. I know they used a lot of HK weapons.

CX.

Originally posted by Neocrusader
reply to post by PaddyInf

 

Soz but I'm going to have to disagree with you

The glock has been issued to your SF but also personel on certain training and mentoring tasks, certain escort duties, in other theatres and a few other bits and pieces - admitadly not widespread .......but they are in the system and are used by conventional forces

Should have made myself clear - They are not in current use and were never on GENERAL issue to individual units. Until now there are no training publications or materials in the system for the pistol apart from the bit in the latest Non service weapon handbook which has a bit on the Glock. They have been issued in very limited numbers for small specific tasks and for trials several years ago, but have never been standard issue. Most units that did use them for anything standardised to SIG years ago. Any in the system will be older gen 1 or 2. The new issue pistol is gen 4.

The sig cleaning kits
They originally came with them in their case - the little slot in the bottom corner - it is a blue tube container - marked up as sig - with cleaning rod/tampon ancillaries contained within .......problem was they tend to get nicked
So replacements needed to be bought
Yes 1 9mm cleaning kit is much the same as the next ........and possible some units withheld the sig cleaning kit and issued the old browning one to prevent these losses/thefts

Standard (non-official) British way of doing things - make do with what you've got. The pistol cleaning kit issued to us is a cleaning rod, a brush and a larger size of flannelette for the barrel. The rest is scrounged from the rifle kit. I've been issued Sigs for my last 2 tours and never got my hands on a SIG cleaning kit.

The blackhawk dropleg for the sig will not accept the glock ......infact I just tried it to double make sure
If you don't get on with the serpas may I recommend a personal perchase of a fobus holster - very good
Infact that's what my 226 is in in my avatar ( left chest )

The UOR holster usually issued for Herrick isn't moulded - it is one of the Omega types. There are a couple of Serpas out there, but they are few and far between. Most guys bought their own on my last tour, (including me unfortunately). Now I have a lovely SIG Serpa holster on my belt and no pistol to put in it. Typical.

And I have just confirmed that the glock blackhawk dropleg holsters are coming as part of the package

If they are the moulded type then good news. Hope they're not the crappy Omega ones. Do you know if we're getting the little kits that let you rotate them for Osprey? Would be handy for chest mounting in vehicles.

I'm currently in the UK as an instructor/advisor in one of your new op Odin/CQB schools and an instructor/advisor on your new ITAT course ( insider threat awareness ) counter green on blue )

Loved your input before though....just had to disagree with you on these points

Big shout out to the WMIK/jackal posse
The only way to roll on ops

Might see you passing through, though the Bn aren't due for deployment for some time. Did ACQB prior to my last Herrick and teach it at Bn.

reply to post by CX


Again this was probably due to units seeing the lackings in the BHP and were looking for off the shelf solutions. I know that RMP CP are currently issuing SIG 226 and 229. I also believe there's a few P239s knocking about. They also use the C8 CQB instead of the SA80 just to be different.

The P7M13 - sod that. Has a grip like a dustbin.

Originally posted by PaddyInf


The P7M13 - sod that. Has a grip like a dustbin.

Yeah i know lol......i did have a go on one at a cop shoot (one of those affairs where forces from around the world gather and have a few days fun on the ranges which each others weapons), and yeah, the grip wasn't ideal. (small hands here).

CX.

Originally posted by CX

I have never fired a the new weapon, so maybe our US members can fill me in on why these are faster to use?

No external safety to manipulate.

Glock "safe-action" is like an automatic safety. It isnt fully cocked like a 1911 is. When you pull the trigger you are cocking and firing sort of like in a double action but it's striker fired rather than hammer fired and the pin is in a sort of 3/4's cocked position blocked from hitting the primer until you pull the trigger which removes the block and cocks the pin fully.

So it's double action mechanics with a single action feel.

Very popular among sport shooters.

By contrast another popular polymer pistol, the Springfield XD, is striker fired but it is carried fully cocked like a 1911 and has both a grip safety (1911 style) and a trigger switch so you cannot release the striker unless you have a good and intentional grip on the pistol.

Really the only thing that's "faster" is that you dont have to flip a safety on or off.

I own and compete with several versions of both. There are some ergo differences. The XD's slides are heavy and tall and you can feel it sort of push over the top of your hands. The Glocks slides are fat and short and the energy comes more straight back into your hands.

reply to post by PaddyInf




Rodger dodge dude
I've only experienced the moulded holsters and steer clear of the omegas
But with regards to the new holsters, as far as I know they will only come in the drop leg format however they do unscrew at the rear to allow for rotation of the holster and removal of the holster from the platform ........it can then be fitted to a molle adapter if you buy one

I prefer chest draws - cuts down on my draw time and is easier access in the seated position like the wmik example you used
And I'm a bloody devil worshiping left hander so to draw from the kneeling ..........in modern body armour........proves a problem
So I always go for a chest holster

May see you around dude though I'm back round my mate stans place soon

Originally posted by NorthernThird
Ok by my simple arithmetic, the British government are paying GBP£360 per pistol. A quick tour around US gun websites suggests a retail price of apprximately USD$575 ...... or GBP£356 at today's exchange rate. Just about bang on the nail.

So where's the discount for such a massive order ?

British Ministry of Defense procurement ... they're so hopeless they can't even get Tesco reward points. Always paying over the odds. I wonder if the trade off is a maintenance contract or something along those lines.

My sentiments exactly, although it's even slightly worse than you say.

First result I got was $549 which is £341. So even if they made 25,000 separate single purchases without a bulk buy discount it shouldnt cost more than £8.5 million.

I don't think a discount of 15% is too much to expect. So at the very least:

£341 - £51 (15%) = £290 per gun times 25,000 guns = £7.2 million at the most. Now a saving of £1.8 million doesnt sound much but applied across all military procurement should bring savings of billions.

Unfortunately its not a case of inept procurement, but rather back handers and corruption. Thankfully our military purchase prices aren't as high as the US who get even more ripped off than us.

reply to post by merkins


There is a lack of understanding of basic equipment procurement here. When kit is bought it is not as a stand-alone item. There is a whole host of after market support and infrastructure behind each purchase. The spares, extra magazines, technical support etc all runs into the hundreds of thousands if not millions for these purchases. The numbers quoted for a contract are never just the cost of the individual items.

reply to post by CX


If it is the Gen 4 Glocks, you and most will hate them.
They will feel clunky and akin to holding a 2x4.
It will take some real training to get used to.

I have carried the Glock 22 & 23, but both were Gen 3.
I liked them.
But I have fallen in love with the HK USP line.

The good thing, is that their failure rate is extremely low, unless you limp wrist, which will get you a stove piped round.

They are simple to field strip and clean.

Decent guns for issue based weaponry

reply to post by macman


Why would they feel chunky? The gen 4 pistols have adjustable/changable back straps so should be able to fit most hands.

Are you sure you weren't using one with a back strap too large for your hands?

reply to post by PaddyInf


To me, as compared to the USP, the Gen 4s feel chunky, regardless of the back strap in place or not.

Plus, Glocks use of more Plastic components for the Gen 4 has me turned off from them.

To me it seems like a waste of money and too little to late.

We'll provide them with a new side arm when we're planning on leaving.

Originally posted by Kram09
To me it seems like a waste of money and too little to late.

We'll provide them with a new side arm when we're planning on leaving.

Actually, from a training aspect, it makes perfect sense.
Why introduce and train a Military on a new sidearm, which is the last ditch weapon for defense besides the knife, while running current major military theaters of war.


Major changes in training, like firearms, tactics and such, unless life essential, should be performed during down time.

Plus, deploying units with mixed armaments, like say half with the browning and half with the glock, makes it so each member can't readily share Mags and spare parts.

You got to love the light weight and the trigger seated safety mechanism but it takes some getting used to the feel of that weird trigger. If you draw and drop your pistol as often happens in a real fire fight when people are pumped up on adrenalin you don't end up shooting your foot off even if you have one in the pipe.

reply to post by Kram09


Well it's not like the army is disbanding just because we're leaving Afghanistan. We will still need weapons and kit for any future conflicts.

reply to post by PaddyInf


Talking out of the wrong hole.