Imorovised methods for taking out light armor

I was thinking about light armor today after reading a thread here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

If an occupying force were to over run your neighborhood and the army was not around to stop them what you we do? Would go and wait in your homes for them to go door to door kicking in doors confiscating firearms and arresting you or your neighbors that were known to be in a local neighborhood watch or some other defensive agent like off duty police or military personnel.

There are of course a lot of limits to our potential responses. For one thing you can not possess a true anti armor weapon except for the BMG 50 or Russian equivalent 12.7mm. These weapons are unlikely to be around in great enough numbers to be effective for repelling an armored rapid attack force.

Historically you can look at the tactics employed against similar light armor used by the occupying British Army units against the IRA. One of the most common street battle tactics was to use smoke to get in close enough to the vehicles to throw fire bombs. These while simple are pretty effective. Those tires were still rubber on most of the vehicles and the gun ports or hatches were often not kept closed tight enough to prevent fuel from entering the vehicle and igniting.

Another common tactic was to increase the distance by using old tire tubes like a sling shot to lob the fire bombs further and from cover with indirect fire. Of course the IRA had weapons even heavy weapons that were donated by various supporting factions including some from the US.

Any thoughts on this. What would you or what could you do without breaking existing US laws of course.

Ingredients to make thermite are usually readily available. Same for napalm, thought probably not as effective against armor.

I'd say you'd want to speed read Sun Tzu and hope comprehension level matches reading speed for what decisions would be required with very real consequences almost immediately.

Also, as stated in OP, if the armored vehicle really isn't sealed that well, chlorine gas can be made very easily using household cleaners. Seems like a dangerous route to go though.

reply to post by danneu89


I think the potential for collateral damage would be too great to consider gassing I think. It also should be noted that a standard of these rapid attack forces is they carry gas masks so they can to tear gas on entry. Also edited to add that the ingredients for thermite / thermate are common materials but if you put them together in a device you are pretty close to the line on building an infernal device as they call this. Having the ingredients and putting it together quickly as needed would work perhaps.

For delivery I am going to have to give that some thought.

reply to post by exitusstatuquo


Yah, that's why I said the gas would be a dangerous route unless you had a gas mask on hand. Thermite would be easy to make, given you had access to the materials. You basically only need rust and aluminum. Igniting would be a taller order but possible with a torch of some kind. Thermite could be made into a paste using playdoh or clay. Just run up behind or in the smoke, slap it on the track, wheel, or other weaker component, torch it and run for your life. With more time, you could come up with a way to detonate it remotely I'm sure or with a fuse. Sparklers (with magnesium) would work, and be aesthetically pleasing as well.

here are a few ideas i used in a book ive been writing for a few years in my part time
thermite is handy and home made sticky bombs using cans of black powder shoved in a sock and it on fire and placed on the tracks might take that part of a tank out(ala tom hanks style)

if of the tired variety you could buy or make your own caltrop's or improvised road spikes like the cops use just make sure that the spikes are hollow otherwise they might not deflate the tires

i hear the iraqi's are quite fond of ied's but would have no idea how to build one and im unsure as to how many people could do this safely

if your more chemically inclined you could try to make or acquire some pure sodium and leave it near where you know armored vehicles are going to be then wait for them to drive over it and add water to the mix or do it using binary containers

the Russians in ww2 evidently trained dogs to run under such vehicles wearing explosives but as a dog lover i am not a fan of such methods

if you were a miner or some form of structural engineer you could abandon and then try to rig a building to fall and land on such vehicles or dig under areas you know they will be approaching from and dig traps that they will fall into when they drive over it

best way would be to try to limit it resupplying and refueling as with out gas its just a pillbox

if they have open hatches you could put acid or other corrosive elements or Molotov cocktails into crew areas or open hatches or what not.

a whole bunch of stuff from pool supply stores can be used to make a variety of highly dangerous and volatile gasses but those are probably more dangerous then they are worth

in snowy areas or passes you could try to set off an avalanche,in a swampy area or area with a dam take it out and flood where they are ,woods perhaps try ewock style falling timber/dropping trees on them?
cant remember any more that i used as i dont have it in front of me at the moment but thats what i remember putting in the book

reply to post by danneu89


How about a thermic lance that is delivered by a self reloading ballista made from truck springs and steel cable with a winch to act as a reloading mechanism. The thermite / thermate tamped into simple steel pipe and ignited and fired indirect so it impacts from above. The thermate would be burning at about 5000F and if a thin zinc rod were tamped into the center it would form a forward cutting spray of the hot metal penetrating the armor vehicle.

www.liveleak.com... its in german but it shows a few methods(some are just hilarious) that i guess the German army used to teach its infantry the crowbar part on the turret was kinda funny. another thing you could try is to set up electricity traps so when the vehicle drives over a set point it completes a circut and any one touching bare metal in the tank might get shocked? or make your own rpg out of a suitably strong amount of pipe,launch it with black powder charge and put a different type of explosive in dog food can or soda can add fins and i think it might work,i seem to remember reading about something simaler the IRA used back during the troubles

www.pbs.org... list of the stuff they got imported when fighting the British more then a few on that list could take out its fair share of armored vehicles

news.bbc.co.uk... talks about the effectiveness of semtex so if people fighting tanks have that it gets a bit easier and these guys got all these weapons in the uk an island you can just walk into like people can the usa from Mexico or Canada

Its very easy to make improvised plastic explosives from common store bought items.

I would not have any problems making a shaped charge heavy enough to punch through a light armor APC.

You can also take the tracks off a tracked APC with steel pipe jammed into the track next to the drive sprocket.

Getting a tracked APC stopped is the first step then throwing a 5 gallon bucket of jellied gas/diesel on it over the engine compartment will finish the job.

Originally posted by exitusstatuquo
Any thoughts on this. What would you or what could you do without breaking existing US laws of course.

I am a retired SF Officer and when Enlisted I was a Special Forces Engineer Sergeant. One can easily make effective thermite with two common components (one is a waste product, filings form machining a certain metal and the from the oxidation process of iron). Out of responsibility, I'm not going to link or give specifics or formulas but homage thermite device tossed onto the thin covering over the engine block or the drivers hatch or ideally the main gun tube will work wonders.

For infantry to effectively fight armor without conventional ATW's you need to negate advantages the armor has:

Maneuverability - get them to engage in urban terrain or wooded area with trees larger than 10" in diameter, use tank traps even engineer stakes and barbed wire will foul the tracks which will eventually make the tank an immobile pill box.

Standoff range - never engage at range always screen movement to get close enough to use IED's and improvised thermite and other type devices. Even a simple Molotov can take away vision unless they unbutton and then snipers can take out the TC.

Once a tank or apc is buttoned up they frankly can't see diddly... Ideally they are supported by infantry but it is hard for infantry to keep up with mech. That and any mech infantry are notoriously lazy and don't like to get out of the vehicle.

I would suggest studying the armored vehicles very closely before hand of course but all armor platforms have weaknesses that really should be exploited if one were to need to fend off an attack for example if a you are talking about a track vehicle that is heavy I would say that a trench with dimensions that fall between the cracks of the vehicles capabilities would be where I would start if the light armor vehicle can't move or is stuck even temporarily you have penetrated a part of its defensive and eliminated its offensive ability

When light armor is immobile it is far more vulnerable than if it could just drive away

Now take that same trench and fill it with a thermite mix add some gasoline a pinch of diesel and you have one heck of a show also don't forget gasses like propane are heavier than air and when released they sink to the lowest available point so in light armor that would be the floor of the vehicle in a boat it would be the bilge


Even if you don't disable the vehicle permanently you will effectively burn out the inhabitants of the vehicle

Oh we'll maybe that's to much sci-if or to much king fu thinking but I'm big on exploiting weaknesses in anything it so very important in every facet of life

reply to post by exitusstatuquo

You can get a 20mm anti tank gun but it has to be registered as a "destructive device" (due to being "non-sporting" and .50 or larger in bore diameter).

reply to post by CosmicCitizen


I am thinking more field expedient than this. It has to work for the average military or police trained agent. Off duty police, ex-military and the like the folks who can actually respond to these type of situation. I think that many of these vehicles used for fast attack and have tires instead of tracks are the most vulnerable. They work great against anything up to say 7.32 x 51 but would fail at 7.62 x 54 or larger with armor piercing incendiary rounds which are widely available. I also think concentrated fire at vulnerable points with say the 30-06 with armor piercing incendiary rounds would defeat most of this type of armor. These have a stand off range in excess of 500 meters in the hands of a competent rifleman.

Most of the American light armor has a ring inside the tire that is iron or something along those lines that allows the vehicle to be driven even if the tire is flat just sayin


I misread the above post disregard

reply to post by geocom


True but believe me when the tires light they will soften the asphalt under the vehicle and light it on fire adding to the flames. In fact a bit of extra bitumen on the road way lit up with thermite for instance would block the progress of the vehicle at least.

reply to post by exitusstatuquo


Agreed like I said I misread that I have no idea how I got that sidetracked when I made the post lol sorry

reply to post by geocom


We posted at about the same time so I did not read your latest before I posted. No biggy.

reply to post by RalagaNarHallas


Thanks for the link. It gave me some ideas for the use of fast setting epoxy for anti armor applications. How about a shotgun round made from a fast setting 2 part epoxy with some wadding so that upon firing the epoxy mixes and is fired into gun ports, door seams, and any moving parts? Cheap and effective when used with concentrated fire of other types of munitions.

reply to post by exitusstatuquo


Well I dont think this would be strictly legal, but if the road you are on is narrow enough that a vehicle would be forced to use the centre of the road, say due to parked cars lining the sides of the road, you could plant a shaped charge under a man hole cover, designed to blast the cover upward and into the bottom of the armoured vehicle, with the intention of flipping the vehicle over, creating a blockage in the road. You could develop various strategies from that point, either using the exposure of the weakest points on that vehicle to destroy it, or use that blockage to impede the progress of the advancing column, giving your people more time to either get out of dodge, or prepare defenses of thier own.

You could find a town planner, or utility engineer who knows where the gas main lines are, and sabotage certain sections of the main line with the intent of catching armoured vehicles in a crater creating detonation, which would serve largely the same purpose as the first plan, but be far more brutal in its execution. The confusion caused by a massive gas blast would be pretty comprehensive, and if the crap has REALLY hit the fan, a retreating citizen force could, if faced with overwhelming light armour numbers, evacuate thier street or neighborhood in the face of that advance, then detonate the whole area, the idea being to deny the enemy the shelter of your homes, while costing them lives and armour as they advance. If every street and hood costs the advancing enemy enough men and machinery, it will scupper thier efforts in the longer term, because armour they might have used to consolidate thier gains, will be in smoking ruins, not guarding against a counter attack.

Obviously, using parked cars, or more precisely thier fuel to create sheets of fire under armoured vehicles, will not be very effective in terms of preventing an advance, because most armoured vehicles have toughened tyres and so on, but it does prevent the troops inside those armoured vehicles from being able to deploy until they have passed over that area. This tactic could be effective for forcing vehicles to move toward an ambush point, and again, give evacuating residents time to escape, while the vehicles move off to find somewhere safer to deploy thier contents.