JINNS!!

Correction, from what i understand islam does not even believe in free will... so how do you justify saying some have it? Islam = submitting to god

I recently started to look into all this when a close friend advised he was going to "conjur a succubus."

"Whaaaaa? Wait... don't do anything until I can look into this"

I quickly bypassed the writings of the past centuries and went to some original source materials:

Apocrypha and Grimoires. I wanted to learn how these entities all got started. They go by so many names.

So far, all I have come across is Testament of Solomon, wherein he conjured demons to build his temple, and Enoch (the fallen angels/watchers and their offspring). That's as far back as I can find their origin.

So, then, from whence came the snake in the Garden? I do not know...

And where do all of these other demon entities come from, such as the Djinn, succubi, fairies, etc. Are they created entities from the other existing demons?

S&F, OP
I love to learn about this stuff...I hope we can stay on track.

reply to post by jhill76


Still trying to derail the thread? I could not care less who is and who is not Christian. Your posts in particular tend to push and pull in that direction very often and although I do enjoy Christian theology this thread is not the place for it. My assumptions as you call them are based on your past posts and whether or not you call yourself one your view points always direct to the Christian theologies, period. Like I said I want to learn about the Jinn and its place within Islamic tradition which is what this thread is for so PLEASE leave out the Christian theologies.

Originally posted by capod2t
I recently started to look into all this when a close friend advised he was going to "conjur a succubus."

"Whaaaaa? Wait... don't do anything until I can look into this"

I quickly bypassed the writings of the past centuries and went to some original source materials:

Apocrypha and Grimoires. I wanted to learn how these entities all got started. They go by so many names.

So far, all I have come across is Testament of Solomon, wherein he conjured demons to build his temple, and Enoch (the fallen angels/watchers and their offspring). That's as far back as I can find their origin.
k
Sko, then, from whence came the snake in the Garden? I do not know...

And where do all of these other demon entities come from, such as the Djinn, succubi, fairies, etc. Are they created entities from the other existing demons?

When Satan was above, his pair had the power to create. She created some whom are what you would call demons.

Originally posted by Agarta
It's interesting how an obvious Islamic tradition thread has instantly dissolved into another Christian debate thread. It started as a description of the 3 conscious creations of Allah/God and became a debate on the existence of Satan and the proposed limitations simply because "Devil" was used. In fact what was used was "Devil" not "The Devil" which denotes several other definitions and not the singular Noun the Christians use. I would actually like to learn something about the Jinn so if you Christians don't mind can we get back on the Islamic traditions? Please?

thanks for protecting this from derailing, you can ask if you have any curious questions.

reply to post by logical7


At this point I have no specific questions just a desire to understand their place and purpose within the tradition.
I guess I do have one, but it may be slightly out of order. How and or why did the Jinn become the Genie? If they were the first to acquire free will how and why were they enslaved in the proverbial lamp for mans servitude. I understand that the stories have been altered to 3 wishes but originally it was limitless making the Jinn the servants of man(or at least those that were captured and incarcerated).

Originally posted by capod2t
I recently started to look into all this when a close friend advised he was going to "conjur a succubus."

"Whaaaaa? Wait... don't do anything until I can look into this"

I quickly bypassed the writings of the past centuries and went to some original source materials:

Apocrypha and Grimoires. I wanted to learn how these entities all got started. They go by so many names.

So far, all I have come across is Testament of Solomon, wherein he conjured demons to build his temple, and Enoch (the fallen angels/watchers and their offspring). That's as far back as I can find their origin.

So, then, from whence came the snake in the Garden? I do not know...

And where do all of these other demon entities come from, such as the Djinn, succubi, fairies, etc. Are they created entities from the other existing demons?

S&F, OP
I love to learn about this stuff...I hope we can stay on track.

Solomon pbuh was given power to control djinns by God and he used them, same as Jesus pbuh was given power to drive out demons. but we as muslims dont ask help from djinns, they actually like that, but nothing is free, so they ask to commit immoral acts in return for favours, its their way of getting back at God because he made humans and they lost their favour with God. They'l ask to mutilate God's creating like animals etc, sacrifices, any other immoral acts that displeases God almost saying "look, this is the human whom You favoured, this weakling who cant even obey You"
.
Djinns have various levels from almost harmless poltgerist kind to powerful demons, i'l post more details.
Fairies maybe just fairy tales.
And you are right in being cautious. Dont do it! It starts with little demands and ends with blood demands/possessions and complete ruin of the one who conjoured. Also a place in hell, as thats what devil wants, more company. Not worth a little gain now or even just for curiosity.

reply to post by logical7


I don't think it was jinns or any sort of demon that helped him. I think that was just an excuse he used to keep curious townsfolk off of his back and an easy way to build mystique around the source of his power. When you ask a magician how he does his tricks, what does he usually tell you?

Exactly. Why the hell would Solomon reveal his craft?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Why the hell would Solomon reveal his craft?

I have to wonder if you have read the Testament of Solomon because he sort of stumbled into the craft in his attempt to resolve an issue with a child who was very dear to him.

Originally posted by Agarta
reply to post by logical7

 

At this point I have no specific questions just a desire to understand their place and purpose within the tradition.
I guess I do have one, but it may be slightly out of order. How and or why did the Jinn become the Genie? If they were the first to acquire free will how and why were they enslaved in the proverbial lamp for mans servitude. I understand that the stories have been altered to 3 wishes but originally it was limitless making the Jinn the servants of man(or at least those that were captured and incarcerated).

edit on 9-1-2013 by Agarta because: Spelling

djinns can be enslaved and made to do one's bidding thats whats called black magic.
My opinion is they are a form of energy with intelligence and conciousness, obviously they may show gratitude to anyone who liberates them from "lamps" but the 3 wishes idea is mostly just tales.
Nobody likes to be enslaved, the same with them, the ancients knew the art/science to do it but not without consequences of its own. Maybe that occult knowledge is still present. Islam forbids it strictly.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

I don't think it was jinns or any sort of demon that helped him. I think that was just an excuse he used to keep curious townsfolk off of his back and an easy way to build mystique around the source of his power. When you ask a magician how he does his tricks, what does he usually tell you?

Exactly. Why the hell would Solomon reveal his craft?

In Islam he is a prophet, and prophets get some powers, how did Jesus pbuh drive out demons?
The djinns were not particularly pleased to serve Solomon pbuh.

reply to post by logical7


What is your take on hell, for humans

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by logical7

 

What is your take on hell, for humans

do you have any questions on Jinns?

reply to post by Agarta


All shall be allowed to share and contrast viewpoints. All can learn from each other.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by logical7

 

What is your take on hell, for humans

do you have any questions on Jinns?

It is one and the same. I will clarify.

Does man and jinn share the same fate in the end

You mentioned three entities in your op.

Originally posted by jhill76

Originally posted by capod2t
I recently started to look into all this when a close friend advised he was going to "conjur a succubus."

"Whaaaaa? Wait... don't do anything until I can look into this"

I quickly bypassed the writings of the past centuries and went to some original source materials:

Apocrypha and Grimoires. I wanted to learn how these entities all got started. They go by so many names.

So far, all I have come across is Testament of Solomon, wherein he conjured demons to build his temple, and Enoch (the fallen angels/watchers and their offspring). That's as far back as I can find their origin.
k
Sko, then, from whence came the snake in the Garden? I do not know...

And where do all of these other demon entities come from, such as the Djinn, succubi, fairies, etc. Are they created entities from the other existing demons?

When Satan was above, his pair had the power to create. She created some whom are what you would call demons.

I cited my references.

Where are you getting your information?

reply to post by capod2t


This is common knowledge from above.

If you require of a book, I believe it is in one of the books not in either religion.

I believe the gnostic texts, it gives a small overview of it.

reply to post by logical7


I understand that one can force control over the Jinn through what is known today as the Grand Clavical of Solomon and a vessel made by sacred means(both of these are known to me as they are both used in possession removal when exorcisms are unsuccessful a last ditched effort if you will) I was curious of the origins and stories held within Islamic tradition. I also understand it is strictly forbidden within Islamic tradition which is what confuses me about the origins of their use, I guess.

Originally posted by jhill76

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by logical7

 

What is your take on hell, for humans

do you have any questions on Jinns?

It is one and the same. I will clarify.

Does man and jinn share the same fate in the end

You mentioned three entities in your op.

yes they do
Qur'an surah 15

26. We created the human being from clay, from molded mud. 27. And the jinn We created before, from piercing fire. 28. Your Lord said to the angels, “I am creating a human being from clay,
from molded mud.” 29. “When I have formed him, and breathed into him of My spirit, fall
down prostrating before him.” 30. So the angels prostrated themselves, all together. 31. Except for Satan. He refused to be among those who prostrated
themselves. 32. He said, “O Satan, what kept you from being among those who
prostrated themselves?” 33. He said, “I am not about to prostrate myself before a human
being, whom You created from clay,
from molded mud.” 34. He said, “Then get out of here, for you are an outcast”. 35. “And the curse will be upon you until the Day of Judgment.” 36. He said, “My Lord, reprieve me until the Day they are resurrected.” 37. He said, “You are of those reprieved.” 38. “Until the Day of the time appointed.” 39. He said, “My Lord, since You have lured me away, I will glamorize for
them on earth, and I will lure them all
away.” 40. “Except for Your sincere servants among them.” 41. He said, “This is a right way with Me.” 42. “Over My servants you have no authority, except for the sinners who
follow you.” 43. And Hell is the meeting-place for them all.

and

“(Iblees) said: ‘Because You have sent me astray, surely, I will sit in wait against them (human beings) on Your straight path. Then I will come to them from before them and behind them, from their right and from their left, and You will not find most of them as thankful ones (i.e. they will not be dutiful to You)’” (Quran, Al-Aaraf: 16,17).
“O Children of Adam! Let not Shaitan (Satan) deceive you, as he got your parents (Adam and Hawwa’ (Eve)) out of Paradise,” (Quran, Al-Aaraf: 27).
". . . and follow not the footsteps of ‘Shaitan’ (Satan). Surely he is to you an open enemy" (Quran, Al- Anaam: 142).

reply to post by chadderson

Correction, from what i understand islam does not even believe in free will... so how do you justify saying some have it? Islam = submitting to god

Why the hell is every religion about submitting to "God"? We spend every day screaming about our rights and condemning the government for attempting to oppress us, and every night thanking giving all of our rights to the "Lord" and thank him for taking our souls in exchange for immortality.

Seriously, WTF?!?! Has anyone here seen the movie Priest? There's a moment where literally EVERYONE turns toward the church symbol and crosses themselves. And all the time they are walking in the city, you hear a recording reminding everyone that confession is a mandatory ritual, and to go against the church is to go against "God".

It was a Christian 1984. And you know what? I can see it happening to us. We would gladly sacrifice everything for a reason to never again be afraid.