Current and former US soldiers, if ordered to fire on your countrymen would you obey?

Originally posted by SlightlyAbovePar
Absolutely not. Period.

What if there Reports of Armed Civilians Killing Soldiers, and have a Unit boxed in and Ripping them to Shreds.

You would be Running as Fast as you can, Locked and Loaded.

No Man Left Behind.

reply to post by OmegaLogos


Super offensive post.

First, you talk about American soldiers and how they are bound to obey any order. That's simplify not true. I'm not going to explain lawful, versus unlawful orders here.

Secondly, you assume American DNA is somehow different than Australian DNA. Meaning there is something different about the character make-up of American soldiers. Wrong is wrong and the wonderful people I served with know what wrong looks like.

Lastly, the thought that my fellow soldiers (past or present) would gun down their own citizens with no cause is immensely offensive to my sense of honor. For instance, some jackass attacks a military installation - he's obviously getting shot. Regular citizens practicing civil disobedience; absolutely not. Are you not capable of recognizing the vast differences in my two fictitious examples?

American soldiers are moms, dads, daughters and sons. The idea they would turn their weapons on the very people they are actively dying to defend (spare me any judgement on Iraq/Afghanistan) is immensely repulsive.

reply to post by Tw0Sides


In that one-off, fictitious example, yeah - they'd get shot. Nobody signs up with the understanding their own citizens can murder them while expressing political beliefs. I appreciate the mental thought exercises -truly, but come on! Lets be serious here

Originally posted by SlightlyAbovePar
reply to post by Tw0Sides

 

In that one-off, fictitious example, yeah - they'd get shot. Nobody signs up with the understanding their own citizens can murder them while expressing political beliefs. I appreciate the mental thought exercises -truly, but come on! Lets be serious here

In that one off?

My friend, who are you expecting to show up? Redcoats??

It will be citizens, armed, who will be shooting at the Military/Police.

All this Bravado B.S. spouted in these threads is Amusing. The Gun Oil is rotting their brains.

Originally posted by Hawking
After seeing the reactions to Occupy Wall Street I have no doubt our own would eventually fire against us.

We all saw the rage and vitriol surrounding a somewhat aimless and sloppy "movement" just imagine how it will be when an individual with a message and some ambition steps in.

Like Assad said the other day, a revolution needs intellectuals

edit on 9-1-2013 by Hawking because: (no reason given)

You sir, are oh so right. Almost every damn person in here would willingly fire on his fellow Americans. I say this because they are currently viewing this post while they are sitting behind a computer in relative comfort. Put them under dire circumstance and give them the feeling of being morally just then watch the bullets fly. Already I see around me people doing the worst things to preserve themselves, preserve their jobs. "Please lord, let me keep all my stuff, let the other guy go down and suffer". They will do far worse under duress.

The individual with ambition? We aren't at that point yet. BUT WE WILL BE. And you are correct about his role also. Most people think life is a spectator sport and somebody should come save them. They will do nothing and are like cattle. When they get troubled and start to moo though there will be a person to step in and take advantage of them. This has been true always about humanity.

reply to post by Tw0Sides


So, in your non-fictitious example, I am under attack by armed citizens for no reason other than being in uniform? Yeah, someone's getting buried and it isn't me. The assumption you've made is that I would be attacking you. Without just cause, I simplify wouldn't.

What would be just cause? Shooting at me. When you fire that first shot, who's the traitor?

The colonists and redcoats were not on the same team, so to speak. The colonists were just that -colonists hacking out their lives one foot of forest and death at a time. The king used his army to enforce taxes (actually it started over an attempt to seize weapons from the colonists). The difference is, the red coats worked for the king and had no allegiance, respect or empathy with the colonists. Today's standing Army is the colonists army. I hope that makes sense.

There are parallels in the issues, but vast differences in the circumstances. Surely you can see what I'm getting at?

reply to post by Apollumi


Except occupy types weren't fired upon. Soldiers weren't called. Total straw man argument.

reply to post by SlightlyAbovePar


Explanation: :shk: ...

What you said I said ...

First, you talk about American soldiers and how they are bound to obey any order. That's simplify not true. I'm not going to explain lawful, versus unlawful orders here.

What I actually said ...

Yes! US soldiers must fire on their own countrymen if ordered to do so,... because they took an oath to uphold The Constitution of the USA. ... and The Constitution of the USA. is the only thing they have to obey!

What is the ONLY thing the have to obey?

What you said I said ...

Secondly, you assume American DNA is somehow different than Australian DNA. Meaning there is something different about the character make-up of American soldiers. Wrong is wrong and the wonderful people I served with know what wrong looks like.

What I actually said ...

Disclaimer: I am and Australian and I am legally insane! I am obviously a bitter communist! And I have never been in the armed forces. Use this information at your own risk ok, but I still remain legally responsible for all my comments as per the ATS T&C's.

What don't you understand about an upfront disclaimer?

Where did I mention genetics?

What you said ...

Lastly, the thought that my fellow soldiers (past or present) would gun down their own citizens with no cause is immensely offensive to my sense of honor. For instance, some jackass attacks a military installation - he's obviously getting shot. Regular citizens practicing civil disobedience; absolutely not. Are you not capable of recognizing the vast differences in my two fictitious examples?

What I said ...

POTUS's come and go ... Constitutional Policy is FOREVER!

The POTUS is outranked by the Constitution at all times .. even they are SUBORDINATE TO IT!

So if you see a superior officer breaking the law ... you are mandated by your blood oath to The Constitution of the USA. to bring them to justice asap no matter what the cost to yourself.

Anything less is cowardice!

What don't you understand about the fact that I am on your side comrade?

Because ...

What I actually said ...

Personal Disclosure: As for shooting my fellow citizens inside my own country, if I was a soldier, NO FREAKING WAY ... I would never allow myself to become a oppressive and tyranical tool against my own countrymen ... who the bloody hell am I defending?

It is WE THE PEOPLE!

And ...

What you actually said ...

American soldiers are moms, dads, daughters and sons. The idea they would turn their weapons on the very people they are actively dying to defend (spare me any judgement on Iraq/Afghanistan) is immensely repulsive.

What is the difference?

You wound me!

Please improve your aim ok!

reply to post by OmegaLogos


reply to post by OmegaLogos


Personally I understood this perfectly and was not in any way offended, as far as whether or not you are insane or communist is not for me to judge, besides as an American myself, most Americans are unaware of the original terms of communism. It wasn't a bad idea until our government demonized it. They like to do that, along with other activities the constitution would not condone. Wait, US government officials disobeying the constitution?! No way!

It seems this thread has created quite a few misunderstandings. First of I'm pretty sure I said second revolutionary war, I do not see anything about a second civil war. Since it seems a few hear are not familiar with the difference, allow me to clarify. By second revolutionary war I meant the following. Tensions are high between us (the citizens) and the government (corrupt political wealth mongrels that control the country). Now we can sit here and argue sublantics until we die from sleep deprivation.

Alas, the point of the matter is; us Americans with half a brain see what the government is doing to OUR country, and it makes US sick. You see we are sick of being pushed around by our governing body, just as our ancestors were sick of being pushed around by their governing body, great Britain. Do you get it yet? I'm not talking about us attacking our soldiers, I'm talking about us standing up to our corrupt government. Now, since their seems to be some level of illiteracy, I also made a comparison to the revolutionists reveling non violently, and the red coats fired on them. I did not suggest any sort of terroristic actions, such term is used ever so loosely these days. Well hell I guess we're all terrorists in that case. What I asked, evidentially not clearly enough is; if we rebelled ( non violently, maybe "illegally" but without violence) and the government ordered you to kill us would you? It seems that the answer is yes since I observe an failure to recognize the difference between upholding the Constitution versus protecting the corrupt officials who use it as a shield.

I could be a corrupt official, and let's say hypothetically I've done some pretty shady crap, and the people find out and aren't happy so they protest or attack or what not. Well I deserve it because that would mean that I myself did not uphold my oath. Thus civilians exacting justice on me for my crimes. So, I play the terrorist card on them, and order soldiers to take care of it. Now, in said hypothetical situation these soldiers are acting on my orders without true knowledge of why I was being attacked, or my crimes. They act obediently because they think that protecting the constitution means protecting me. Innocent people die under my corrupt orders, and I walk free. I and my fellow officials who also took part in my crimes create a false flag diversion to demonize the rebels and hide my trail.

Now, there are many officials that are horrible people, no one knows what hellish things they've done to get in power and wealth. Very few people ask, and soldiers questioning these motives or these officials of whom are their superiors could be found as disobediant. Is it becoming clear now? I would have no wish to harm a soldier or the constitution, what I want to know is, in the end who would the soldier choose? Me or some corrupt superior. Personally I would disobey before trusting the say so of some dirty politician. I know the contents of the constitution, and I know enough to say our own government isn't following it, their hiding behind it. I'm a 16th generation American, something few can say, and I'm a patriot. I say this because a true patriot wouldn't choose a corrupt government before his own people. I would choose my people over any official just on instinct, because I know it's right. I had a best friend once who shared similar ideals, then he joined the army, I dunno what happened. All I know is it changed him, we're now exact opposite, and he would choose and official over a citizen, he said I was a terrorist. Needless to say we're no longer friends. oh and P.S. the term the British used 300 years ago to describe my ancestors actions against the government was and equivalent of today's loosely used word "terrorist." the Brits called him a terrorist, and he was one of our founding fathers, guess what that'd mean George Washington was also a terrorist. There's a vast difference between the words "terrorist" and "revolutionist." LEARN THE DIFFERENCE!! - Peace

reply to post by JohnCreed777


P.S.S only the first paragraph was directed to Omegalogos. The remaining paragraphs were meant to be a seperate post but I'm having computer issues.

Yeah, is there not another thread some where around here, based on this same general subject matter?

Deja vu...

Is it me, or am I seeing things?

*draws a sip from his flask*

M mm, absinthe, a wonderful natural anti parasitical.

reply to post by OmegaLogos


Brother, I don't have time for a tit for tat, line by line 9-11 sub forum style of "debate" with you. I tried to explain how your post came off to me. Accept it or flush it, I don't care. If you can understand the broader points of opinion I was trying to make, great. If not - clearly the case - that's okay too.

reply to post by JohnCreed777


I was asked if I'd fire on my own citizens. I said absolutely not. Then, a hypothetical question was put to me regarding my fellow soldiers being attacked by ordinary citizens. My answer was still no, but with self defense qualifiers. For having a contrarian opinion, you've labeled me illiterate.

If talking back and forth to yourself in an echo chamber is interesting to you, have at it. One thing I've learned is ATS is becoming more and more contentious with people who really have no idea what their talking about endlessly speculating about pure fallacy.

The royal you asked a question and meeting the qualifiers of the question I answered. My answer remains. Your inability to understand that answer, or accept it, isn't my problem. I know what's in my heart and I answered honestly. Your "friend" calling you a terrorist has nothing to do with me or any of the wonderful people I served with.

In addition, I don't need a history lesson - really.

Lastly, been there, done that. Your sideline understanding of who and what makes up the American military is sophomoric and simply wrong based on my actual experience, with actual soldiers in the actual real world. You're certainly entitled to your opinion but, don't confuse your anecdotal "understanding" of the military with reality.

ATTENTION - Please keep the conversation civil and directed at the topic and not each other. Knock off the bickering.

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