A logical problem with "Hell": Part 2

I've heard many people say God is Omnipresent / omnipotent... Meaning he sees all things that can and will happen in the past, present, and future, which I really have no argument about... Who am I to judge God

Though a curious thought comes to my mind with this idea...

I find many Logical Flaws with the concept of the Christian "Hell"... And while im sure there is a place for those that refuse to learn in this life, I don't believe for a second that Hell from the Christian perspective is one of those places.

Personally I believe Hell is nothing more then a fear tactic used for conversion... And while even Jesus mentioned Hell, he did not mean a place of torture where you'll burn for eternity. This concept makes no sense if one believes in a loving merciful Father of creation.

So I have yet another question for those of you who do believe Hell exists...

IF God sees all things past, present, and future... This means before a person is born his fate is already sealed... IF said person landed in Hell after his passing... God knew it was going to happen even before his/her birth...

SO the question is, what would be the point of letting a person incarnate into this life, if he is already headed to hell?

God knows this person will not learn... God knows he's headed to hell even before his birth... which means there is no chance for said persons redemption regardless of what he does in this life.

This basically means God just wants to toy with said person... stringing him/her along like a puppet only to cut his strings and toss him into the fireplace?

This is yet another logical flaw in the Christian concept of Hell

Just my opinion of course... for what it might be worth

Hell is a lie used to promote fear... Fear equals control... Which is exactly what the religions of the world want from YOU.

Control over your life... and your death, and all things in between

reply to post by Akragon


I am a Christian and believe that the bible has been translated over and over and over again and by men who did want to control the masses.

I like jesus' love and compassion.

Hell in my point of view is maybe just a burning desire to be with god and you can't.

Just my opinion.

Increase the peace
-nat

I do not go to church, I would like to just to have fellowship with people that believe the same thing I do, I'm looking for a non-denominational church, but am still scared to go.
I'm an honest sinner,and try so hard not to be a lying hypocrite


Religion has really messed up a lot of things. I don't believe in everything the bible says, so much is metaphors and also like I said translated so many times over. But I feel that Jesus is the man they speak of and all he promoted was love, and that's what I strive to do, spread love.

I agree Akragon. Hell is a fear based dogma that exists only to force people to convert, lest they burn forever.

God knew all along that Eve would bite that apple, so it seems to me god created humans only to condemn us which doesn't really fit in with a loving god.

reply to post by Akragon


No where in the bible does it say man will burn in hell forever.

This notion was brought upon via the church to cause fear.

But, it is possible Father could have said person here to teach others in an indirect way. For without evil, how could one appreciate good.

I haven't read the OP yet, but I have to say that that's the funniest and most insightful thread TITLE I've ever seen, Part 2 - ya gotta be kidding "A logical problem with "Hell": Part 2" that's freaking hilarious! I love it!

Personally, and as a true Christian who understands that God loves ALL his children, I'd rather not read or participate any further other than to say that, I hope you'll forgive me..

I will say this much. A lot of people are in hell already, even in this life (if that weren't bad enough). By the grace of God, somehow, to the degree that I've been forgiven, forgive them also in the name of Jesus Chrsit, and if need be, re-institute the karmic circle, which is a good law and the one that Jesus really preached, but with an arrow pointing heavenwards, and from heaven, earthwards. Yes there are quotes of him warning us about destruction, but in making himself the substitution, and transcending it, and sharing the whole treasure with us, for free, tell me where is the hell in that? And it's not an exclusive proposition either. "Love one another as I have loved you." That's a reasonable, all-inclusive invitation to join him in his love. There is no hell there nor the possibility of hell, and it's formative and functional no matter what you believe or think about it, the only difference being that those who receive it and appropriate it (grok it) get to leave hell right away! He outdid himself don't you see? What's the word.. Hallelujah?

God Bless,

NAM

Several years ago, I was suffering from severe depression. I was 20 years old, hated my life and had thoughts about suicide on a daily basis. Eventually, I when to "Jesus Christ" for help. I prayed everyday and initially felt better about life. My depression was still a problem and the daily prayers were not helping. At that moment I was suspicious about Catholicism and quickly removed it from my life.

reply to post by Akragon


Brilliantly sad.

I have often argued that, because of God's omniscience, he knew before he created the universe that someday hell would exist.

In fact, he knew before he created the universe that someday I would exist and that I would reject his teachings thereby sealing my fate in hell.

He knew this and still created the universe. So my fate was sealed either way. It cannot be a "choice" on my part if God had prior knowledge of what would take place.

His act of creating the universe set in motion the singular path the cosmos would take to arrive at my birth and eventual damnation. For me to have had free choice, then God would have to have no pre-existing knowledge of the path the universe would take. But, then he would not be omniscient, and if he is not omniscient...he is not God.

The Christian religion is not grounded in logic.

reply to post by jhill76


Well said...

But, it is possible Father could have said person here to teach others in an indirect way. For without evil, how could one appreciate good.

IF that is the case, wouldn't said person earn some sort of respect/reward for indirectly teaching others?

This of course is also saying that God plays some people like pawns in a chess game...

Religion teaches its followers to fear God, but how does one love something they fear?

Hell from a Christian perspective has no logical aspects to it, unless one considers the fact that there was an agenda behind the use of said pit of despair

reply to post by Akragon


Or, he just creates some to be evil for said reason, just as a cow serves its purpose.

Father controls more than others give him credit for. But, it is just used as a teaching tppl.

Good is always good for goodness' sake, so to speak. It's it's own intrinsic reward. I just don't see the evil there either.. in other words we don't then need to go searching for the evil by which to know the good as good. We all know quality when we see it and feel it. Even Socrates would have agreed with this

To carve up the whole of existence in this way (good vs. evil) is utterly absurd and patently ridiculous.

Love conquers all simply because it's reasonable, and the only thing worth doing when you come to the unconditioned ground of all being and becoming, it's the only thing that makes sense, but not because it's the opposite of hatred. That's funny.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

I haven't read the OP yet, but I have to say that that's the funniest and most insightful thread TITLE I've ever seen, Part 2 - ya gotta be kidding "A logical problem with "Hell": Part 2" that's freaking hilarious! I love it!

Hmm... Im glad I amuse you... any chance you might be drunk? Or perhaps im just tired, but I don't see the humour in my title...

Personally, and as a true Christian who understands that God loves ALL his children, I'd rather not read or participate any further other than to say that, I hope you'll forgive me

Of course, you're forgiven... Not sure why im forgiving you honestly but there it is...

I will say this much. A lot of people are in hell already, even in this life (if that weren't bad enough). By the grace of God, somehow, to the degree that I've been forgiven, forgive them also in the name of Jesus Chrsit, and if need be, re-institute the karmic circle, which is a good law and the one that Jesus really preached, but with an arrow pointing heavenwards, and from heaven, earthwards. Yes there are quotes of him warning us about destruction, but in making himself the substitution, and transcending it, and sharing the whole treasure with us, for free, tell me where is the hell in that? And it's not an exclusive proposition either. "Love one another as I have loved you." That's a reasonable, all-inclusive invitation to join him in his love. There is no hell there nor the possibility of hell, and it's formative and functional no matter what you believe or think about it, the only difference being that those who receive it and appropriate it (grok it) get to leave hell right away! He outdid himself don't you see? What's the word.. Hallelujah?

God Bless,

NAM

LOL... Seems like you had plenty to say after all...

So can we agree to just say "the hell with hell"?

Good is always good for goodness' sake, so to speak. It's it's own intrinsic reward. I just don't see the evil there either.. in other words we don't then need to go searching for the evil by which to know the good as good. We all know quality when we see it and feel it. Even Socrates would have agreed with this

To carve up the whole of existence in this way (good vs. evil) is utterly absurd and patently ridiculous.

Love conquers all simply because it's reasonable, and the only thing worth doing when you come to the unconditioned ground of all being and becoming, it's the only thing that makes sense, but not because it's the opposite of hatred. That's funny.

And you didn't want to participate....

Originally posted by LewsTherinThelamon
reply to post by Akragon

 

Brilliantly sad.

I have often argued that, because of God's omniscience, he knew before he created the universe that someday hell would exist.

In fact, he knew before he created the universe that someday I would exist and that I would reject his teachings thereby sealing my fate in hell.

He knew this and still created the universe. So my fate was sealed either way. It cannot be a "choice" on my part if God had prior knowledge of what would take place.

His act of creating the universe set in motion the singular path the cosmos would take to arrive at my birth and eventual damnation. For me to have had free choice, then God would have to have no pre-existing knowledge of the path the universe would take. But, then he would not be omniscient, and if he is not omniscient...he is not God.

The Christian religion is not grounded in logic.

Unless, unless it's an all or nothing uncompromising, all-inclusive invitation only i.e.: something that's already been done for you, unconditionally, or regardless of what you might believe or not believe.

"Forgive them father for they know not what they do."

that was addressed to the very people who put him on the cross and watched him there, think about that..

Therefore, the problem in the logic isn't with Jesus himself, but with a modern evangelical bent which makes the belief the condition for salvation, but what if the salvation goes the whole distance and never comes up short, by far exceeding the proselytizing Christian "hoard". They might be wrong and have misunderstood Jesus' farthest reaching agenda and mission.. by underestimating it so, while making themselves part of an exclusive club (who would want to belong to that kind of club? where everyone ELSE is "going to hell"?! how disgraceful! That's not the least bit "Christian" at all! LOL).

Thus, you are employing that condition of belief to suggest that damnation for simply not believing is an outcome God has freely made available to you? C'mon, don't be absurd, that's ridiculous and neither makes any sense nor is it the least bit congruent with God's love and the freedom he makes available as a first/last cause and prime mover "who causes his sun to shine and his rain to fall on both the good and evil alike, and who is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked". This is the reason why we too must love and forgive our enemies and pray for those who persecute us, in this case, it would be the Christian (from the POV of the non-Christian), now that makes sense, and that it's humorous only increases the likelihood that it's true because then we're dealing in the knowledge of understanding through personal experience.

Forgive us - non-Christian, for we (Christians) did not know what we were doing, or most if not almost all of us. Please?


Do that, and you shall be counted a son of the most high God!

Seriously.

Cool thread, glad I participated after all, thanks.

Originally posted by Akragon

And you didn't want to participate....

Couldn't help it. Stakes are much too high!

I believe in hell. Not exactly the christian one but ok.
Let me try and explain how i see it, but God knows best.
Say God made 100 souls, and send them on earth, their free wills will interact and give rise to say 10 ending up in hell, God knew it, but if He doesnt make that 10 then the 90 will interact and 9 will still go to hell.
The free will leads to hell.
But God cant be blamed, everyone gets a fair chance, just God knows who will choose what.
So the only way to avoid hell was not to give free will or not to make humans at all.
The ones going to hell cant complain after they reject God, deny doing good, commit sins etc after being warned as to what it will lead to. They are literally choosing Hell. And God gave free will dint He?

reply to post by logical7


Or, you get another chance to learn of your mistakes the next go around.

Well I was thinking about this too, after I read another persons thread.... You can also tie this whole argument in with free will, you can make the choice yourself but God would know the answer even before you made the choice, so is it really free will if the outcome is already known?

Originally posted by logical7
I believe in hell. Not exactly the christian one but ok.
Let me try and explain how i see it, but God knows best.
Say God made 100 souls, and send them on earth, their free wills will interact and give rise to say 10 ending up in hell, God knew it, but if He doesnt make that 10 then the 90 will interact and 9 will still go to hell.
The free will leads to hell.
But God cant be blamed, everyone gets a fair chance, just God knows who will choose what.
So the only way to avoid hell was not to give free will or not to make humans at all.
The ones going to hell cant complain after they reject God, deny doing good, commit sins etc after being warned as to what it will lead to. They are literally choosing Hell. And God gave free will dint He?

IF God never made hell in the first place there would be no need to avoid it...

You say the ones going to hell reject God... Which God?

I fully reject the God of the OT... and all his maniacal rantings... will that land me in said place?

Even the word is a litteral place.... Not a firey lake where the devil as the warden of the jail...

Again there is no logic in this concept... God is love right?

Torture is not love... Nor is fear...

There might be a place for people that don't learn their lessons.... but hell isn't one of them...

Originally posted by Akragon
IF God never made hell in the first place there would be no need to avoid it...

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Not hell, oblivion - hell 2.0.

But since we're working on "A logical problem with "Hell": Part 2" perhaps isn't never too late, and thus if God is a loving God at some point down the line he puts hell wherever he likes (I would say "where the sun don't shine" but that would sound like I'm giving God # which I'm not! lol) and place humanity back onto the karmic wheel, if there ever was a hell that some might have fallen into, for them the 2nd death and it's all over.

Therefore I propose that we declare this very thread the beginning of the end of hell, here at the end of all evil and the beginning of love as the only reasonable thing worth doing in the final analysis, and to hell with hell! Ouch! that was hot!

That it's cute and amuzing and playfully loving, tells me that it's true.

And so therefore, to avoid a karmic cataclysm of bad people reincarnating, ever lower, and good people rising ever higher, I present to you - the cross, of Jesus Christ.

So it's a whole new type of judgement, employing a type of logic many of us might never have considered, still capable of rendering a Just verdict while also liberating us to learn from our mistakes, without the possibility of condemnation i.e.: intercessory grace whether you like it or are even aware of it, or not, and a perfect judgement situated at the "apex" of the karmic wheel, there's the great work, for all who wish to freely drink from the living water that flows therefrom, like an eternal fountain and wellspring, of reason and logic, unto infinite intelligence, and infinite love which is synonymous with the mind and the sacred heart of Jesus Christ. Ah to finally "grok" of it, how utterly satisfying..

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

~ Revelation 22:17

With Love,

NAM
Your brother, and a bride of Christ. (and no I'm not gay)

The end.

The beginning..

"I am the Alpha and the Omega--the beginning and the end," says the Lord God. "I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come--the Almighty One."
~ Revelation 1:8

reply to post by Akragon

God is love right? Torture is not love... Nor is fear... There might be a place for people that don't learn their lessons.... but hell isn't one of them...

yes God is loving, forgiving, merciful, would anyone care to repent and ask?
God of OT, God of NT? i believe in One God. Not any historical accounts written by scribes with motives.
Also devil is not incharge of hell, he will be in hell.
Back to love, how you keep free will intact if devil chooses hell?
If devil wont stop doing wrong?

And why are you worried? If you believe in God and do good, hell is not for you.
Dint Jesus pbuh tell to cut a sinning hand rather than burn the whole body due to it. Moral? Dont sin.

reply to post by Akragon


You pretty much summed up the major inconsistencies...hell does NOT make sense, and could never be part of the intelligence of an omnipresent, omnipotent, loving creator...what does make sense is that, being the 'chips off the old block" we are able (through FREE WILL) to thought-form such a place into existence...on some level...Stories of people going to hell are stories of people visiting this construct, and seeing pretty much what could, has, and will be imagined by anyone subscribing to this - satan, the thought-form manager of this thought-form locale is what people who tell stories of going to this 'locale' see...all Created by thought...

Imagine what you could create...by thought...

A99