Taking oath on Bible as a court witness, but do not believe in God

Originally posted by Britguy
I personally see no point in having to swear on a bible to tell the truth.

Agreed.
I see no judicial point in discovery of the religious thoughts of a witness either.

Anyone, especially the guilty, are of course going to lie to try and get away with whatever they are accused of. After all, by not pleading guilty and avoiding the trial in the first place, they or their lawyers think they can possibly convince (lie a lot) a judge and jury of their innocence.

Agreed again.

From personal experience swearing on a bible, even as a credible eye witness and being honest and truthful means nothing to a slimeball defence lawyer who, through clever wordplay and innuendo can try to make you appear unreliable and untruthful anyway.

I am preparing myself for such an experience.

Bottom line, anyone who is going to lie will do so regardless of swearing on a book they have probably never read, and whose religious message means absolutely nothing or plays no part in their lives.

Agreed, the Bible oath is redundant and irrelevant.

I have been to family court in Ireland (ie. no public allowed) where it was up to me to impress a judge as to how much I loved my children and whether he decided I should be granted access to them or not.

I was handed a bible and asked to swear to tell the truth (the whole truth and nothing but..) on a book that spoke of talking snakes, burning speaking bushes, genocide, defiance of the LAWS of physics and dudes rising from the dead. They might as well have handed me a Harry Potter novel.

Despite being an atheist I did so solemly because if I had spoken the ACTUAL truth, that I don't believe in that nonsense then the sour faced little fat man who the state has decided knows best would have immediately deemed me a godless heathen and incapable of loving my children as a father should.

And they cannot understand why I don't take the judiciary seriously!

I hope that anyone who has had this dilemma can see through the crap and gain an understanding of how society and the system of law is organised and that justice is purely in the eye of 'The Holder' and is all a construct of whoever can benefit from it.

reply to post by HumansEh

I understand the issue of the forced question of faith and why you made the choice you did.
The victim in my case is not even related to me and I'm drawn to biting the bullet and swearing on their Bible - for my child though? Absolutely.

I am in Georgia - I have never seen a bible used, and I think I would have noticed it. My daughter is clerk of courts I will ask. You can always call the clerks office and find out what they do then you can decide. An affirmation that you are going to tell the truth is all that is required.

OP why wouldn't you want to swear on the Divine inspired Word of God past down without error from generation to generation ,no other book on this earth can claim that it is inerrant.

If a court asks you to pledge an oath on the bible to tell the truth, then they are admitting the existance of god, are they not ? and if they are admitting their belief in god then do they not have to accept that whatever you have done is to be punished by god, and not by any man ?
If that makes any sense

Originally posted by spyder550
I am in Georgia - I have never seen a bible used, and I think I would have noticed it. My daughter is clerk of courts I will ask. You can always call the clerks office and find out what they do then you can decide. An affirmation that you are going to tell the truth is all that is required.

I'm in the UK.
You are correct, an affirmation is all that is required, my concern is with the religious belief question being raised for anyone prior to giving evidence. An individual promising to tell the truth is making a personal affirmation to the court, religious belief information should not be required for such a statement.

Originally posted by TheChosenKing
OP why wouldn't you want to swear on the Divine inspired Word of God past down without error from generation to generation ,no other book on this earth can claim that it is inerrant.

As stated in the OP because I don't believe that.
The debate is the apparent state sanctioned situation where religion is involved in UK justice and an indication of ones beliefs or lack thereof is provided by forcing a choice between oath to God or affirm to the court.

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by TheChosenKing
OP why wouldn't you want to swear on the Divine inspired Word of God past down without error from generation to generation ,no other book on this earth can claim that it is inerrant.

As stated in the OP because I don't believe that.
The debate is the apparent state sanctioned situation where religion is involved in UK justice and an indication of ones beliefs or lack thereof is provided by forcing a choice between oath to God or affirm to the court.

Frankly I'm appalled that you don't believe in God ,you should be killed denying your creator.Hell is heating up for people like you.

Originally posted by sayzaar
If a court asks you to pledge an oath on the bible to tell the truth, then they are admitting the existance of god, are they not ? and if they are admitting their belief in god then do they not have to accept that whatever you have done is to be punished by god, and not by any man ?
If that makes any sense

Haha yep it does, I won't be making any presentations about that to the court clerk though

Originally posted by TheChosenKing

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by TheChosenKing
OP why wouldn't you want to swear on the Divine inspired Word of God past down without error from generation to generation ,no other book on this earth can claim that it is inerrant.

As stated in the OP because I don't believe that.
The debate is the apparent state sanctioned situation where religion is involved in UK justice and an indication of ones beliefs or lack thereof is provided by forcing a choice between oath to God or affirm to the court.

Frankly I'm appalled that you don't believe in God

Personal opinion that is hardly relevant to the issue of a forced religious belief question for UK criminal court witnesses.

you should be killed denying your creator.

Interesting assertion but again personal opinion unrelated to the OP.

Hell is heating up for people like you.

Another assertion irrelevant to this particular discussion.
However, if you have any comments on my specific points in the OP I remain interested and happy to consider them.

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by TheChosenKing

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by TheChosenKing
OP why wouldn't you want to swear on the Divine inspired Word of God past down without error from generation to generation ,no other book on this earth can claim that it is inerrant.

As stated in the OP because I don't believe that.
The debate is the apparent state sanctioned situation where religion is involved in UK justice and an indication of ones beliefs or lack thereof is provided by forcing a choice between oath to God or affirm to the court.

Frankly I'm appalled that you don't believe in God

Personal opinion that is hardly relevant to the issue of a forced religious belief question for UK criminal court witnesses.

you should be killed denying your creator.

Interesting assertion but again personal opinion unrelated to the OP.

Hell is heating up for people like you.

Another assertion irrelevant to this particular discussion.
However, if you have any comments on my specific points in the OP I remain interested and happy to consider

I rebuke you in the name of Jesus I have cured the atheist spirit before ,you need to go to your local pastor for divine help from God through my years of research as a pastor I have found out that Atheism is a result from demonic spirits who try to block out God. Repent or face the heat of hell.Read the Holy Bible pray and go to church.And this is no opinion this is scientific absolute fact based on the Word of God.

Swearing on a book to look better doesn't seem like a good start to me. Stay close to your true self. Don't try to look better than that. I would not swear on it, ever. It would be a lie to begin with.

Originally posted by TheChosenKing

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by TheChosenKing

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by TheChosenKing
OP why wouldn't you want to swear on the Divine inspired Word of God past down without error from generation to generation ,no other book on this earth can claim that it is inerrant.

As stated in the OP because I don't believe that.
The debate is the apparent state sanctioned situation where religion is involved in UK justice and an indication of ones beliefs or lack thereof is provided by forcing a choice between oath to God or affirm to the court.

Frankly I'm appalled that you don't believe in God

Personal opinion that is hardly relevant to the issue of a forced religious belief question for UK criminal court witnesses.

you should be killed denying your creator.

Interesting assertion but again personal opinion unrelated to the OP.

Hell is heating up for people like you.

Another assertion irrelevant to this particular discussion.
However, if you have any comments on my specific points in the OP I remain interested and happy to consider

I rebuke you in the name of Jesus I have cured the atheist spirit before ,you need to go to your local pastor for divine help from God through my years of research as a pastor I have found out that Atheism is a result from demonic spirits who try to block out God. Repent or face the heat of hell.Read the Holy Bible pray and go to church.And this is no opinion this is scientific absolute fact based on the Word of God.

edit on 8-1-2013 by TheChosenKing because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-1-2013 by TheChosenKing because: (no reason given)

This would appear to be a perfect example of the sentiment I have to consider could be in the minds of magistrates. I fear such a world.
I object to the forced choice of oath/affirm to reveal religious beliefs, or lack thereof.

Originally posted by D.Wolf
Swearing on a book to look better doesn't seem like a good start to me. Stay close to your true self. Don't try to look better than that. I would not swear on it, ever. It would be a lie to begin with.

I think what I wear is irrelevant to the way I interact with others. I think the 'suit means professional' thing is shallow, superficial, and easily manipulated.
I pseudo conform in life where needed (including wearing suits where required). The risk of a magistrate sharing views as a previous poster draws me towards pseudo conforming in this case. I think this situation is unacceptable and could be changed with a single affimation to the court by all witnesses.

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by TheChosenKing

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by TheChosenKing

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by TheChosenKing
OP why wouldn't you want to swear on the Divine inspired Word of God past down without error from generation to generation ,no other book on this earth can claim that it is inerrant.

As stated in the OP because I don't believe that.
The debate is the apparent state sanctioned situation where religion is involved in UK justice and an indication of ones beliefs or lack thereof is provided by forcing a choice between oath to God or affirm to the court.

Frankly I'm appalled that you don't believe in God

Personal opinion that is hardly relevant to the issue of a forced religious belief question for UK criminal court witnesses.

you should be killed denying your creator.

Interesting assertion but again personal opinion unrelated to the OP.

Hell is heating up for people like you.

Another assertion irrelevant to this particular discussion.
However, if you have any comments on my specific points in the OP I remain interested and happy to consider

I rebuke you in the name of Jesus I have cured the atheist spirit before ,you need to go to your local pastor for divine help from God through my years of research as a pastor I have found out that Atheism is a result from demonic spirits who try to block out God. Repent or face the heat of hell.Read the Holy Bible pray and go to church.And this is no opinion this is scientific absolute fact based on the Word of God.

edit on 8-1-2013 by TheChosenKing because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-1-2013 by TheChosenKing because: (no reason given)

This would appear to be a perfect example of the sentiment I have to consider could be in the minds of magistrates. I fear such a world.
I object to the forced choice of oath/affirm to reveal religious beliefs, or lack thereof.

edit on 8-1-2013 by grainofsand because: (no reason given)

I will pray for you so you would turn from your wicked ways before you get thrown into the fire pits, I am only doing this because I want to see no man go to an eternal hell. If you want me to counsel you you can PM me I have cast out several atheist demonic spirits.

reply to post by TheChosenKing

I am only interested in remaining on-topic and shall no longer reply to anything otherwise from you.

*Edit*
Your comments demonstrate very well the religious elements which have no place in an 'unbiased' criminal court.

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by spyder550
I am in Georgia - I have never seen a bible used, and I think I would have noticed it. My daughter is clerk of courts I will ask. You can always call the clerks office and find out what they do then you can decide. An affirmation that you are going to tell the truth is all that is required.

I'm in the UK.
You are correct, an affirmation is all that is required, my concern is with the religious belief question being raised for anyone prior to giving evidence. An individual promising to tell the truth is making a personal affirmation to the court, religious belief information should not be required for such a statement.

I would think an attorney would rather not bring religion into it. Unlike the UK being an atheist in the US is a big problem. Just look at our political process.

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by D.Wolf
Swearing on a book to look better doesn't seem like a good start to me. Stay close to your true self. Don't try to look better than that. I would not swear on it, ever. It would be a lie to begin with.

I think what I wear is irrelevant to the way I interact with others. I think the 'suit means professional' thing is shallow, superficial, and easily manipulated.
I pseudo conform in life where needed (including wearing suits where required). The risk of a magistrate sharing views as a previous poster draws me towards pseudo conforming in this case. I think this situation is unacceptable and could be changed with a single affimation to the court by all witnesses.

edit on 8-1-2013 by grainofsand because: (no reason given)

You got me on the suit thing. I might consider wearing one, even though I never do (Something to do with despising suits). Would I dare to go to court wearing what I always wear? I might, if it was only me on the line, but you are trying to help someone else here. I think I would do the suit thing in that case. Pawing a book I don't go by is something else.

I don't think they let trolls to become magistrate, but you know your surroundings better than me. If you think you're better of with the gesture, paw it. It's part of the age old ritual anyway. It's like shaking hands with someone you don't like, wishing a happy new year.

No big deal. Give me a bible!

I'm surprised that no one has brought this up yet.
If you're really dead set against the bible in court, don't be AFRAID to "force" this verse "down their throats".

But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, -Matthew 5:34