The Fallacy of "Honour" and killing your own children...

I wanted to put together a post on this subject to garner other members views.... I hope we have some posters here from countries such as India, Pakistan, Japan, Sri Lanka and other countries that still operate this sort of societal system...... whether intentionally or non-intentionally...

Over the last few years I have become more and more aware of these so called "honour" killings... whether it be a mother and father killing their daughter for dating a western man, or a mother beating her son to death because he failed to memorise the necessary sections of the Koran... a story from very recently in the UK....

"Violence on the basis of "honour" is spreading at a disturbing rate. The problem is not unique to Turkey or the Middle East. It is happening here, too, in the heart of Britain. According to the Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organisation (IKWRO), more than 2,800 honour-related cases were reported in the UK in 2010. Evidence from police forces reporting suggest an increase of 47% since 2009. Attacks are concentrated in London, the West Midlands and West Yorkshire. Women's organisations argue the real numbers could be four times higher because of the stigma of reporting. For some, such as Hanim Goren, who testified against her husband in 2009, it takes decades to break their silence. Her daughter Tulay, a Turkish Kurd, was only 15 when she was murdered in 1999 in Woodford Green, north London, by her father. Her sin was to fall in love with someone who was twice her age and from another branch of Islam."

Source link:- www.guardian.co.uk...

Please someone explain to me how it is not "hounourable" to allow your children to date a person of another religion/creed, or for your 7 year old son to not memorise the necessary ammount of religious text, but it IS "honourable" to murder your own children for doing/not doing so??!!

What sort of crazy logic is this....Man 1:- "Oh, my daughter was having ilicit relations with an infidel", Man 2:- Well, this dishonours your family greatly.... Man 1:- "But what if I murdered her?", Man 2:- Well, yes, that would restore your family honour".... which appears to be far more important than the lives of your own children....

I cannot reconcile this in my head....

Someone please explain the reasons behind this seemingly false logic which see's hundreds of innocent children murdered every year....?

PA

reply to post by PerfectAnomoly


Those people have been conditioned and brainwashed since they were kids. It's all they know.

Imagine what kind of mind believes that if he straps dynamite to his chest and blows himself to kingdom come, taking along with him dozen innocents...he will get 70 virgins in heaven (don't quote me on the number). Figure that.

If you reason about that, it makes no sense. Very few things tied to religious belief/dogma makes any sense.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly


I completely agree.... and you're right... it is conditioning.. I guess I just wanted to break it down into it's constituent parts and actually examine the issue logically, sometimes these issues coagulate over time and people never really see them for what they are ... and more importantly get some responses from people whose lives are affected by it...

Thanks for the input...

PA

Interesting thread. Will have to check in a few days, and see if you actually get any of the responses you were looking for.

In general, I think it's the same mentality that makes people believe what some cult person tells them. They can be so conditioned (especially if raised in such a group) by various methods that they become unable, in some cases, of ever learning anything different. If someone is taught that their eternal destination, or reward, depends on them doing some terrible thing, they can be scared into doing it. Fear is a very strong motivator. That sort of tactic can be used (and has been) across the board for various beliefs, systems, etc.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
Interesting thread. Will have to check in a few days, and see if you actually get any of the responses you were looking for.

In general, I think it's the same mentality that makes people believe what some cult person tells them. They can be so conditioned (especially if raised in such a group) by various methods that they become unable, in some cases, of ever learning anything different. If someone is taught that their eternal destination, or reward, depends on them doing some terrible thing, they can be scared into doing it. Fear is a very strong motivator. That sort of tactic can be used (and has been) across the board for various beliefs, systems, etc.

That's what happens when you're brainwashed. You become incapable of being able to correctly distinguish between right and wrong. Take honor killings performed by muslim, they will claim that only happens in certain nations, but that is in reality a faulty statement. It has been documented that muslim from different nations, even ones who claim they do no such thing, are found to have people who do this barbaric practice.

Take a look at David Koresh who was thrown out of the Seventh Day Adventist church. He had his followers so brainwashed the men would take their wives to him and let him have sex with them to "bless" them, and have sex with their underaged daughters. He also claimed to be Jesus, which should have sent some bells and whistles going off in his follower's minds if they had the presence of mind to actually read the bible. Manipulation is a form of witchcraft, 1 Kings in the OT is a prime example in a infamous woman who dubbed herself "Jezebel".

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


This is why after the Kobal (spelling?) towers bombing in Jordan(?) which killed a number of marines, Reagan said "These people are crazy" and left.

How do you deal with people that kill their own children? Happily? Whether it's bombs strapped to them, or because they looked at some other kid in the "wrong way"?

You can't rationalize that.

It's just like abortion in our country. How can you seriously talk with people who don't understand that a fetus is a child?

reply to post by Happy1


Also, look at the recent gang rape of a woman in India. One of the rapist "pulled her intestines out with his bare hands" And there are some saying she deserved this? She was out with a man?

Judgement is coming.

I find the whole idea disgusting. I do have thoughts though.

To these people it is right. To them it would be seen as strength of character to be able to carry out justice on your own blood. Pakistani courts at times have been sympathetic to the practice. There is also some very robust memes within religious doctrines such as the law of God being above man which help support the practice despite very few (to my knowledge) texts opaquely endorsing such acts. I can see that a parent might actually even see it as the right thing to do, to put their own son or daughter to rest; preferable to letting others in the tribe carry out the sentence. Furthermore, killing prevents creating blood ties that will dilute the family line and create unwanted responsibilities with 'enemies'.

It's not just a single practice either. Other practices follow similar patterns - such as this one where a person asked to be whipped. There are similar traditions in aboriginal cultures that endorse spearing in the legs etc ... and corporeal punishment to family members.

I imagine in tribal cultures this would be seen as 'keeping order' in your own house, but it is at a disconnect with western life styles, and arguably becoming less common elsewhere, too.

It sounds odd but in some ways there is no difference between someone who religiously and blindly believes in the US constitution and someone who believes spearing you in the legs for dating a heathen is justice. I'm not saying it's right, I am saying there is a large chunk of the people pie that will blindly follow whatever traditions they're indoctrinated with as 'justice' at an early age.

One of my colleagues at work has been to stoning and beheadings. The first time he told me I spat water all over myself. Is a scary world, and I feel lucky I got indoctrinated with my culture. I wonder sometimes if they feel sad that they were indoctrinated with theirs?

Originally posted by PerfectAnomoly
"Violence on the basis of "honour" is spreading at a disturbing rate. The problem is not unique to Turkey or the Middle East. It is happening here, too, in the heart of Britain.

This is islam (intermixed with arabic culture) and it's backwards ass philosophy in a nutshell. What the hell do people (or should I say sheeple) expect when they're welcoming these barbarians?

And you are surprised it's spreading to the West! Did you really think these barbaric neanderthals would adopt the fair and just culture of the West as soon as they landed on British (or Swedish/German/Norwegian) soil?
No, the western culture isn't perfect but it's a hell of lot better than most of the rest of the world.

You reap what you sow. Multi-culturist supporters are traitors to their own people and you can all rot in hell for all I care.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
That's what happens when you're brainwashed. You become incapable of being able to correctly distinguish between right and wrong. Take honor killings performed by muslim, they will claim that only happens in certain nations, but that is in reality a faulty statement. It has been documented that muslim from different nations, even ones who claim they do no such thing, are found to have people who do this barbaric practice.

Take a look at David Koresh who was thrown out of the Seventh Day Adventist church. He had his followers so brainwashed the men would take their wives to him and let him have sex with them to "bless" them, and have sex with their underaged daughters. He also claimed to be Jesus, which should have sent some bells and whistles going off in his follower's minds if they had the presence of mind to actually read the bible. Manipulation is a form of witchcraft, 1 Kings in the OT is a prime example in a infamous woman who dubbed herself "Jezebel".

Very true. These days, people are so gullible, they will believe anything that is marketed well. Some of the threads here.....

We have these "honor killings" happening in the US, too. People don't want to talk about them, but they happen. Yet, no one is supposed to say anything negative about those that do such things. Then, others want to claim that they pray to the same god? Not my God, they don't! We were told, though, that these things would happen.

Judgment is coming, alright!

reply to post by PerfectAnomoly


I think this issue is separate from cults as Islam is no more a cult than Christianity. This is a culture issue. It wasn’t that long ago that Japan followed Bushido they had different class of citizens where a samurai had the right to take anyone life in a lower class. It wasn’t that long ago that slavery was permitted in the US. This is not a religious issue in my mind but a cultural issue. In no way does it justify any of these acts but the problem is tradition and years of culture and stigmata. I have no idea what the answer is to how this can be solved. London already has laws against murder but that only means it is carried out in secret. In Muslim countries this issue is probably common and goes un noticed. Dear god they still stone people to death. In my opinion Middle Eastern countries are still very barbaric and uneducated. Many of the more advanced Muslim countries do have a more civilized and educated populace however many things are still considered taboo and in our eyes are considered archaic.

There are many facets to this and I believe this has strong ties to religion. Islam is a relatively young religion followed by Christianity and Judaism. If you exam these three religions they all have strong ties to one another but if you put them on a timeline and if you were to place them side by side looking at each from their inception examining the first 500 to 1000 years out will see they all were bathed in blood during those periods. It could be that Islam is simply still in its infantile period. This is merely an observation I have made. One thing you will find with Islam is the word of the Koran is absolute teachings like evolution could earn you death. This is not so far off from how the Catholic Church viewed many science fields at one time. The bible if filled with stories of more ancient times where heretics were put to death unruly children were stoned to death and women were forced to marry their rapists.

Many find religion today as a positive thing and it has transformed quite a bit over time to be positive but you must remember its roots were created as tools and laws to subjugate he masses. Supposedly handed down by a source god creator. Most people in the western civilized world only loosely follow the bible or its counterpart but for those in the middle east it is still the middle ages the Koran is law and unquestionable. The true test will be if and when they come to terms like the rest of the world with their faith and use it as an outline and focus on the positive in it and not take it literal. This is a very real problem the US is a country of laws yet we still have factions that wish to incorporate biblical law. Those are the devout blind followers some of which hold seats in the senate and congress.

We have a congressman who wrote a book where he feels that parents should be able to have a unruly teen be put to death because the bible says in reference to stoning in ancient times this is insane and hypocritical because the same man is condemning planned parenthood. Basing laws off religion is a recipe for disaster. We have another congressman who sits on the science board stated that global warming cannot be real or dangerous to mankind because in the bible god says he would never let another catastrophe like the flood ever happen he also stated along with another congressman that said Evolution, embryology and the Big Bang theory are major underpinnings of mainstream science. And Georgia Republican Rep. Paul Broun, a physician who sits on the House Science, Space and Technology Committee, says they are “lies straight from the pit of hell.”

I am not very familiar with the Jewish community however I know they have had their own instances however of all the Abrahamic religions they are the oldest and they seem far more advanced in respect to accepting science and what I call natural laws. Like human rights. Where at the moment in many Middle Eastern countries slavery is alive and well. Women there are property and have little in the way of rights.


Contiued

My Rant Continued

It leads me to believe the problem isn’t just one particular religion because all three of these have gone through there fazes and held sway and influence the way Islam does now it seems that they have to go through a period of time to find balance. This does not mean I condone this because I do not. This is an international problem that infiltrates many facets of our lives. As for the Muslim countries part of the problem is because it is still such a young religion taken far too literal maybe they hold to it more so because living conditions are far harsher there than the rest of the world but in my opinion because they do issues such as Iran acquiring nuclear weapons I feel is akin to giving children hand grenades to where everyone involved will wind up injured to some degree. Religion can be a positive thing but it certainly has a history in producing atrocious inhumane acts. Maybe one day the world as a whole will find an even keel but I am afraid it will not be in my lifetime.


Thank you for reading my rant. It is early and if I offended ayone that was not my intention. Ido not believe this is the only reasons things are the way they are but I feel this is firmly roooted as a large part of the cause for many of the social problems we are dealing with.

reply to post by Happy1

How do you deal with people that kill their own children? Happily? Whether it's bombs strapped to them, or because they looked at some other kid in the "wrong way"?

You can't rationalize that.

It's just like abortion in our country. How can you seriously talk with people who don't understand that a fetus is a child?

There are a couple things you can do. Pray for them is one, and attack the indoctrinations that lead them astray to do evil. Exterminating them isn't the answer, because that turns you into them and then you're no better. This is why it is so important to establish true morality. The objective is to save them, not destroy them but as in the case if Islam, it's an infection you have to quarantine or it'll sweep across the world because you cannot reason with fanatics and it's not a case of where you have 1 or 2 out of millions, but rather you have tens of millions even hundreds of millions of fanatics and this is where freedom of religion in the U.S. is going to come back and bite us in the ass in the end.

In the case of abortion, people have lost all sense in that regard of right and wrong. Abortion is the new face of Moloch worship, when in ancient times pagan peoples would burn their children alive for prosperity, wealth and maintaining lifestyle. When they murder and unborn child because they don't want to pay the price for their sin, they force that child to pay for their indiscretions and then it's a matter of common sense. If you don't want children don't have sex, abstain from having sex. But nowadays people have gone from having sex to purposely make a family, to treating sex as a recreation instead of it's intended purpose which was to create the nations. So now they use scientificly modified words like "abortion" and "termination" to diguise what they do so they feel no moral obligation to change their ways.