Bolivia slams US over 'irrefutable evidence' of meddling

Next. I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain something to someone who is just going to argue with me.

Why should we bother to take any of your posts seriously if you're not prepared to back them up or elaborate on them?

Much as with American perceptions of the Middle East many of you seem to be wildly confused as to why governments in Latin America may feel hostile or distrustful of the United States.

Let me guess it's the usual run of the mill "they hate our freedoms" government parroted tosh?

Or perhaps some of you are of a certain age group and grew up in the age when communists were the boogey man of the day threatening NATIONAL SECURITY.

On the other hand it may also be down to sheer denial or just plain ignorance.

There is something about the word communist or socialist which seems to bring about bizarre knee-jerk reactions from Americans on this site. Much the same happens with other "trigger" words like "Nazis" or "Israel."

reply to post by Corruption Exposed

There are no facts on this entire topic. From either side. Just hear say.

reply to post by Gorman91

There are no facts on this entire topic. From either side. Just hear say.

Fair point. We'll have to see how this develops...if at all.

reply to post by Kram09


Like I said waaay back. The only way this would become anything at all is through Lithium. If Bolivia isn't doing anything through that, then this whole thing is a joke.

Compared to Lithium, drugs are literally candy money.

Originally posted by Kram09

Next. I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain something to someone who is just going to argue with me.

Why should we bother to take any of your posts seriously if you're not prepared to back them up or elaborate on them?

Let's just say that I have had enough people whose main argument consisted of telling me I don't know what Socialism is. It really gets tiring saying it over and over and over when I know already that those people's minds were already made up. You don't have to take any of my posts seriously.
Either you read the Antony Sutton explanation and it made sense or you didn't read it because it is too much of a bother.
Or maybe you just want to see if I read what I posted.I mean I just think that Antony Sutton explains it better than anyone else.
So since you are so set on being obtuse about this, let's pull out some key concepts from Antony Sutton's explanation.

First, he explains that Hegelian Dialectic was devised by Hegel and embraced by Marx and Engels in their philosophical ideology. Sutton also tells us in his books that some people at Yale University brought Hegelianism back with them when they went to the University of Berlin, and so it was taught and used extensively at Yale afterward. From there, the secret society Skull and Bones used Hegelian dialectical reasoning when they set up the ideology they now use to control dialogue.
Ok back to the article, so Sutton explains that Hegelianism is used by the Power Elite to manage conflict. They set up arguments involving two opposing arguments. It becomes the left/right paradigm so many people here talk about. Sutton says this is an artificial device and gives a specific example of Marx and Hitler as opposing teams. He then says that the ideologies of Marx and Hitler both spring from the same Totalitarian ideology, although they are presented as textbook opposites.

Sutton says that these arguments are used in politics to create conflict. The conflict is managed by them for their purposes.
Hegelian Dialectic is often described simply as thesis/antithesis/synthesis, or problem/reaction/solution.
Sutton tells us that the NWO is the synthesis of left and right and the political systems, neither right nor left. It is easy to see the confusion here when people can see the synthesis of the NWO manifested as neither right nor left, and then they insist that the right is the same as the left. That applies in the instance of Marx and Hitler because both were leftist anyhow. On the other hand, if you imagine that left and right or Republican and Democrat are printed on opposite sides of a coin, you can see that they are different pictures but both belong on the same coin. I heard this description in a lecture a long time ago.
Let's check it again. Marx nd Hitler were presented as textbook opposites but really come out of the same ideology.
The NWO stands now behind both Democrat and Republican....just look at the CFR membership, it comprises of members of both parties.
It is funny to hear people saying that Republicans should just be more like the Democrats so the party is not dissolved completely and to get it's relevance back. What a bunch of hogwash. We might as well just have one party then....but then it would be Communist. Of course I distilled that pov to it's simplest form since people said it in a slightly different manner, but the essense is the same, people think the Republican Party is boring and dull and Progressivism is getting more interesting to the public so they must now remake the Republican Party in a more Progressive form, the Republican Party must lose it's more conservative core to appeal to the masses.
Sounds to me llike the Communist Party finally got it's meathooks in the Republican Party.
Meanwhile the Shadow Party operates in the background, just like some programs on your computer.
So I have given you some main points of Sutton's article which was taken from his book, and I gave you a few of my own viewpoints.
What you do with that information is your own business.
So have a nice day and I hope this helps.

Communism and dictatorship are very different in all aspects, political as well as economic ideologies.

In communism, the society or the community is on top of everything while in dictatorship, society or community is only secondary and it is the dictator who governs everything.

Furthermore, in communism, the profit is shared equally in the community whereas in dictatorship, the profit is accumulated in only one person.

Makes you kind of wonder... Especially the part about sharing.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

The NWO stands now behind both Democrat and Republican....just look at the CFR membership, it comprises of members of both parties.

Sorry what? I appreciate your trying to explain, but you've gone off on a strange tangent about the New World Order?

I do feel in some respects that Republicans and Democrats are in a way two sides of the same coin but frankly I don't understand what that's got to do with this thread or how it fits into everything you said.

Sorry but I don't understand.

reply to post by Kram09

why governments in Latin America may feel hostile or distrustful of the United States.

Since you probably have not read the Antony Sutton piece(he was originally from Britain), let me explain again that dialectical reasoning is set up and conflicts are created and managed by the Power Elite. Does it matter who or what country? Right now America is being set up as the bad guy because we seem to be generating the most money and warfare, but really, why does America have to be blamed when even the allies go in with us? Or when we go in with France as we did in Libya. It has to be understood that the Power Elite consists of powerful and wealthy people from all over the world. Who goes to the Bilderberg meetings? Why, Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands, Queen Noor of Jordan, George Soros, people from Spain, France, Sweden, Denmark, even China.

Look at this list

www.infowars.com...

These are the current movers and shakers and people who are being recruitedi to take positions in the grand scheme.
Bill Gates is said to have attended, Gore, etc.
The Power Elite are International and have their hand in every activity.
So when people just suggest that the US is the evil guy, it is just plain uninformed.
The average person here on ATS is aware of the Bilderbergs as part of the Elite set up, but there are a few who seem to believe that the US is behind it all. All one has to do is look at the scope of how the UN Agenda 21 is implemented in so many countries, and I did find a page just for Bolivia. That shows how International and worldwide is the scope of the Power Elite.
The International Bankers are very powerful, and many of them are European.
So let's go back and find out why the US is the fall guy for the NWO. Likely because we are the Superpower at present, but Georgey Soros is working real hard on that to make China the new SUperKid on the Block and desperately wants to crash our economy. But he was a Bilderberg attendee, so let's just assume he has all the bad guys with him on this.
So they send in a guy like Barry Soetoro with a shady past and a fake Birth Certificate from Hawaii, with Communist parents and grandparents and mentors like Frank Marshall Davis. Ms Pelosi says he's legit so everyone goes with that.
Stuff comes out about him, but he's not white so everyone just says oh you are just racist, because we can't simply disagree with his Marxist policies. Then everyone on the left says oh you are just clinging bitterly to your guns and your religion.
Who else said that...oh yes it was Karl Marx, who said religion was the opiate of the masses and vowed to get rid of religion altogether to bring in his Marxist economic system based on the Communist model.
Now the Left is trying very hard to manufacture reasons to take away guns from the people so they cannot resist the NWO. They have been doing this worldwide. Do you think this is just a matter of gun violence in the States? They started with places like Britain and Australia, and even earlier in Germany. They want this gun ban to be worldwide, and that is why Hillary and Barry were busy at the UN pushing for the Small Arms Treaty.
Suddenly Boehner and RINOS are caving to the Democrats and die hard pro gun people are suddenly deciding they don't want to look like child killers to the public.
Now comes Morales from Bolivia. He knows the NGO's are all about Agenda 21 Sustainable Development, but he lies and says it's all US spies and says how awful the US is for it's meddling with his coca crops.
He is likely in very think with Barry Soetoro from Kenya/Indonesia and they are both in thick with Chavez from Venezuela. But Morales knows he has to pretend. He has been propping up Communism in his country and nationalizing industry, all the while Agenda 21 has set up shop for Green Socialism.

These Socialist/Communists would do whatever it takes even if it's lying through their teeth.
These guys are all left Hegelians in the dialectic.
Now do you get it?

Originally posted by Kram09
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

 

The NWO stands now behind both Democrat and Republican....just look at the CFR membership, it comprises of members of both parties.

Sorry what? I appreciate your trying to explain, but you've gone off on a strange tangent about the New World Order?

I do feel in some respects that Republicans and Democrats are in a way two sides of the same coin but frankly I don't understand what that's got to do with this thread or how it fits into everything you said.

Sorry but I don't understand.

It only seems a strange tangent, because you yet do not understand that the proponents of the NWO are behind practically every conflict we see in the world today. When you begin to understand this process you will see it in action in the big picture. You will begin to view every conflict as having the NWO behind it. It may look like this Marxist guerilla faction, or that Al Qaida terrorist cell, but it is all manufactured by the Power Elite, or at least facilitated by the Power Elite when they see natural long term conflicts like that between peoples. This is why Sutton called it "managed conflict".

Didn't you ask me to explain about Hegelian Dialectic? So I explained it.

reply to post by WhereIsTheBatman

the community is on top of everything

That may seem true in theory, but in practice it is never the case. Have you ever heard the phrase that groups don't do things, individuals do. So in practice in Communism, a ruling elite still has to run things from the top, while giving the appearance that the Proletariat is in charge.

Herding a bunch of stray cats? Who is making the decisions what rat to hunt or what direction to go in? Herding cows or sheep is so much easier isn't it? You just have a little dog circling the herd all the time and they all think it was their decision. This is why the shepherd uses the dog to gather all the sheep up in a bunch and make them go in the direction he wants. The Shepherd can be an evil guy like Soros or benevolent like Jesus.

Communism is never really a group of Proletariat workers making decisions, it is always a Ruling Elite running things to make the Proletariat think they are running stuff.
But look to the former Soviet Union to see how the Politburo worked. If you made the wrong decision....you are in big trouble, get demoted or killed. The workers just did all the grunt work for the Elite. Who was in charge? Lenin, Stalin, Kruschev...

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Corruption Exposed

 

There are no facts on this entire topic. From either side. Just hear say.

There are plenty of facts on the topic. It's a fact that US/Bolivian relations have been pretty crappy over the last 5 years, and that's only what they admit. It's a fact that diplomacy in the form of representation has been limited if not totally non-existent due to this relations.

It's a fact that Bolivia has made accusations, and they claim they have irrefutable evidence, which has not been proven so that part is not a fact yet.

There are other facts as well, as minor as they may be, but to say there are no facts on the topic whatsoever may be a bit extreme considering that there are various facts, but there are also many unproven things as well.

reply to post by WhereIsTheBatman

in communism, the profit is shared equally in the community

Even Capitalist corporations use something called Profit Sharing. I know, because my Dad's company did it. Not because he had to but because he was benevolent. Company profits were distributed among every worker no matter what level. He even once gave up a $10,000 dollar bonus to the workers. But that was just him. I don't expect that all CEO's do this.
Is it Communist?
Well it was a privately owned corporation and he ran it his way, so not Communist but clearly benevolent and privately owned.
When Corporations or an industry such as oil or electric are centrally owned by a State....such as in Russia, it becomes the Communist thing you talk about, and the people depend entirely on a govt bureaucracy for their very sustenance.
I don't know why Communists try so hard to glamourize it. It takes away freedodm, liberty, creativity, self governance.
People used to describe Communist Russia as being gray.

The grayness is the dullness of centralized control and lack of freedom and ingenuity.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by Nina2010

 

What country has Independent thought? Just look at how many countries are signed onto the whole Sustainable Development thing from Agenda 21, Bolivia included. You imagine that is independent thinking? It is indoctrination and brainwashing.
But just a thought, the US feeds more mouths than any other country.

I am well aware of agenda 21. where in agenda 21 does it say "WE empower the USA to meddle in bolivia's affairs" It doesn't and that is why you keep avoiding the question and trying to get me off topic.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


Those are facts yes, but those are facts that don't lead to any conclusions, so they are more accurately questions.

Please understand that anything involved with Bolivia is going to probably revolve around Lithium. It more or less comes primarily from Bolivia's Lithium mines. So that's why I'm focusing on that. Because Bolivia could easily shut down the western world by embargoing the west from its Lithium. In a single day they could literally quadruple the price of Lithium based technology.

So when a leader totes about irrefutable evidence without anything to back it, and tries to focus on drugs, it's like Saudi Arabia saying that the primary economic concern and woe they have against America is bananas. It's sort of silly. Everyone knows its oil.


Bolivia owns the Lithium market. 43% of the world's reserves. Anger could be simply over wanting more money behind closed doors.


(Yea that's the sucky part. We all think green technology means liberation from Foreign markets. Nope. From oil reserves to Lithium reserves.)

the U.S meddling with Bolivia is just the tip of the iceberg.. most countries have the U.S meddling in there affairs..

They need to release this to the press ASAP. we HAVE to find away to STOP this kind of back room influences on other governments.

I wouldnt be suprised if the u.s is trying to destabilize another country, but Bolivia hasnt shown any solid evidence.

reply to post by Nina2010

I am well aware of agenda 21. where in agenda 21 does it say "WE empower the USA to meddle in bolivia's affairs"

Where in the US Constitution does it say that the UN can meddle in American affairs? The UN is meddling in every countries' affairs. What proof is there the US is even meddlilng in Bolivia? It is Russia Today and the OP's opinion and another thread he started.

If you are for a UN World Govt then you must be for someone policing the drug trade? Or do you think Bolivia should be allowed to run drugs into the US?
Morales is either running drugs into the US illegally or there wouldn't be a need for controls.
One more thing, if you are an American, you may be kidnapped for ransom and held in some horrid camp. Are you ready for that to defend Bolivia? It's happened in other South and Central American countries.

Some people will hate the US no matter what we do. And I know there is corruption at all levels, but in generality, no more than any other country.
This is also apparently an issue from at least the Bush Jr era

excerpts from 2009 article

Bolivian President Evo Morales, the first indigenous leader of any South American country, has been for many years, and remains, head of the federation of coca growers. The Bush administration accused Morales of failing to stem the tide of coc aine production and distribution. In turn, Morales accused the U.S. of meddling in Bolivian affairs and plotting with his political enemies to overthrow his government.

Both countries expelled each other's ambassadors. The U.S. ended its preferential trade terms with Bolivia, citing the country's lack of drug enforcement cooperation. In retaliation, Bolivia threw out U.S. government employees of the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), and the Peace Corps. Morales and some U.S. officials have expressed a cautious optimism that relations between the two countries may improve in the Obama era, but recently the Bolivian president accused the U.S. of complicity in the Honduras military coup.

www.zcommunications.org...

But naturally, the same people who want to protect our children from evil right wing gun nuts also want to protect them from the coca drug trade of bolivia

Here is something newer though....hope you don't like Obama

"I hereby designate Bolivia, Burma, and Venezuela as countries that have failed demonstrably during the previous 12 months to make substantial efforts to adhere to their obligations under international counternarcotics agreements," President Obama said in the determination.

www.alternet.org...

Funny how Hugo Chavez is one of Obama's best buds...why would Obama suddenly declare Venezuela as not complying with US drug enforcement policies?

The scary part is that this is only one country that is actually saying somehting... even though the msm wont pick up this story