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“the only routes of inquiry there are for thinking:
the one that it is and that it cannot not be
is the path of Persuasion (for it attends upon truth)
the other, that it is not and that it is right that it not be,
this I point out to you is a path wholly inscrutable
for you could not know what is not (for it is not to be accomplished)
nor could you point it out… For the same thing is for thinking and for being”
Parmenides
The way can be told, but it is not the usually told way.
The name can be given, but it is not the usually given name.
It can be called absence, since it is before the start of the universe; it can be called presence, since it is the mother of all things.
Therefore, from the view of absence, it is possible to figure out its secrets. From the view of presence, it is possible to view its traces.
Presence and absence say different things, but are both from the same origin. This sameness is called the occult.
Originally posted by Son of Will
If we momentarily zoom our personal telescopes out all the way, of course, One Entity is all that is, whatever name one wants to give it.
However, in that context, individuality is nothing more than a subjective illusion caused by a less-than-permanent (inherently - the crest of the wave will dissipate before the wave itself) coherent awareness.
I suppose the way through that is to invoke concepts of fractal consciousness. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it, though. (hahah)edit on 6-1-2013 by Son of Will because: (no reason given)
Something and Nothing, they both have a single non-form origin that does not have a name but could be called "The Way" for the sake of reference.
"Love" is "Love" and "Hate" is "Hate", but even when you hate it is because you care about something, right? Otherwise you would be neutral.
That said, I have nothing against the experience of separation and individual being-ness, and enjoy it even with that "love" as the backdrop.....I don't see that level of reality as something I need to try to "wipe away". I incarnated to play the game and enjoy it, I am no "prisoner against my will" of duality.
Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
reply to post by ImaFungi
I was only using love as an example. Within the context of reality, we see that it is a word or a concept applied subjectively by whomever would use it. Love to you is different than what I would call love because we've come to our own conclusions on what it is. Objectively we know what it actually is—namely, a word—but we usually fail to admit that and sometimes wrongfully consider it something more than what it is.
ugh.., I was trying to ask.. do you not think the word 'love' relates to anything more then the word,, does the word describe real things? did you really not get my example? who care if anything is used subjectively.. is it a real phenomenon... for some reason you say no, it is not, it is only a meaningless word describing a non existing nothingness... I dont know your motive or proof in believing this, i tried to ask with my example.. but you seem to have your conclusion.
Does happiness exist? sadness? Do feelings exist? I know you will say yes, subjectively feelings exist... but i will say... those feelings are real products of chemicals and objective reality, therefore feelings exist, as objectively as a rock or a star... as there is a phenomenon of rock, there is a physical phenomenon of feelings... of course it is a complex area, and of course you can suppress,ignore, eliminate your feelings.. but that does not mean "feelings" no longer exist in the universe, just because youve spocked yourself.
I think that in reality if your parents had not loved each other, you would not have been born.
You are suggesting you understand Love and that this impression is absolute.
What is your basis???
Any thoughts?
Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
reply to post by ImaFungi
ugh.., I was trying to ask.. do you not think the word 'love' relates to anything more then the word,, does the word describe real things? did you really not get my example? who care if anything is used subjectively.. is it a real phenomenon... for some reason you say no, it is not, it is only a meaningless word describing a non existing nothingness... I dont know your motive or proof in believing this, i tried to ask with my example.. but you seem to have your conclusion.
Does happiness exist? sadness? Do feelings exist? I know you will say yes, subjectively feelings exist... but i will say... those feelings are real products of chemicals and objective reality, therefore feelings exist, as objectively as a rock or a star... as there is a phenomenon of rock, there is a physical phenomenon of feelings... of course it is a complex area, and of course you can suppress,ignore, eliminate your feelings.. but that does not mean "feelings" no longer exist in the universe, just because youve spocked yourself.
What I was getting at was that our ideas of love are different; but despite this difference, we can both agree that at the very least, or at the very most, 'love' is a word. That is my only point. I am not trying to refute love, or what you call feelings.
It isn't my hope to persuade you or take any meaning away from your words—that's the beauty and power of language—but here is my opinion on the 'feelings' you mention:
You said it yourself, 'feelings' are the result of chemical processes accompanied by sensations and stimulus from reality. Those chemical process, sensations and stimulus do indeed exist. But they don't produce a product called a 'feeling,' they develop an idea about what was perceived.
By associating those sensations, stimulus, and chemical processes with the perceived cause and effect, we form an idea, and call those ideas love, happiness, anger, etc. When we feel 'love,' we're not perceiving something called love, we're conceiving it. We're only perceiving the stimulus, sensations, chemical reactions, causes—those, and the idea of love are what are real.
If you want to abstract all those processes into some magical property called love and make it profound, by all means, I'm not going to stop you. Everyone has their own idea about what love is.
But aside from abstractions and by operating within the context of reality, love is a word connoting an idea. This cannot be denied and is objective and doesn't rely on lyrical abstraction. We can agree on this by looking up the word in the dictionary.
the reasons words exist and are different, are to describe different things.....
On the topic of love, specifically unconditional love, we can compare it to the same behavior exhibited by the base forces in the universe (gravity, magnetism). Essentially, it brings things together and changes them. Strengthens them with the right variables, destroys them with different variables. We see the same thing happen when one has unconditional love for another. They will want to spend time with them, just like Jupiter pulls things into its orbit. When it brings things together in a specific way, it can create life. We see this with the Earth (rocks being pulled together over time, etc) and we see this with the human couple becoming more of a single unit in many ways, as well as creating life through pregnancy.
There is a chance that although we experience it in a chemical interpretation (inevitably), that it has roots that reach beyond just our bodies chemical reaction. It may be based on a driving behavior for the very formation of most (if not all) objects in the universe. Bring things together and change them.
Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
Love, happiness, hate etc. are memories of the context, that is it. They are not a force or something tangible. Within the context of reality they exist as linguistic conveniences to help us understand the context better.
I think you are wrong... I think if you erased the word 'love' from all vocabularies and dictionaries.. and the concet of love, the word and meaning from the minds of all humans.... love would still be a thing that exists in the universe