Why Atheists are Unrelenting

reply to post by AceWombat04


I also find that knowing there is an order to the motion of the universe gives me a lot of peace. Knowing that we can give purpose to everything, even destruction. Knowing that we can take anything and turn it into something positive. Knowing that whatever happens to us, we have the power to come out on top. Not just knowing that we can, but knowing how to. And being strong enough to take it even when we don't.

Spirituality helps with all that, and more. But sometimes, you misinterpret spirituality. A man who is unfamiliar with a language will misread, misunderstand or misspeak many times before he masters it.

Originally posted by Nina2010
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I am trying to understand why athiest care. I am a christian and athiest seem to be more obsessed with God to the point where I think it is unhealthy.

There is a thin line between love and hate and I think that at any given moment athiest can become nutty religious people. they have all the tools and behavior traits that would make them perfect religious nutts.

I place nutty religious people and athiest in the same bag as they have the same irrational behavior.

This is the difference between an atheist and a religious person. I will tell you that you are pretty much on the mark. Psychologically, I think that those in law enforcement could've very easily turned to crime at some point in their lives. It's the same mentality, only on the right side of the law. It is said that love and hate are two sides of the same coin.

So, am I a fanatical atheist? Yeah, I LOVE debating it!

reply to post by jiggerj


So are atheists spiritual, or not? I don't think a god is required for someone to be spiritual.

Growing up with religious indoctrination in a rural community, I was quite smitten with the "good word". It made sense. It also applied itself perfectly to the need for righteousness and fairness that is probably inherent in any naive young person.
As I reached the ripe age of ~12 years, I began to have doubts.
Why would the good lord let the # happen that I started being aware of around me?
Was all that normal?
Is being almighty not impossible?

It took my grandfather dying and witnessing all the evil relatives swooping down like winged rats to finally make me see the light.
His death was not instant but also not extremely long and drawn out. At least I don't believe so, there is, after all, a special relationship of a young consciousness and time. I do not remember many details from that time of my life but one thing has and will always be stuck in my mind. My room was right next to his and I spent as much time with him in there, as I could. I always felt it was _our_ room.
There were all kinds of wonders in there. My grandpa was a miller and a self-taught electrical engineer. He was so far ahead of everyone in our one-horse town, its not even funny. He loved to make his own electric motors, disassembling and rewinding them to the specifications he needed, building winding rigs on the way. There was a whole 15 by 10 foot (5 by 3 meters) room with open lead-acid aquarium-style batteries for backup power on the ground floor of the house.
Then, one day, I was not allowed to go into his room anymore. He had become sick, although I did not realize. I had always thought, he would be there forever, as young people do. The one thing I will always remember is when I peeked into his room and saw him lying there, his skin was yellow and taut over his face. His mouth was open and his eyes closed. After that I was afraid to even go near the door. A few days later (Really not sure about the time frame) he died.
For the funeral my parents dropped me off at the house of some relatives who were very religious. Why, I don't know, but I always had a strong aversion towards these people. I might have just been scared of them because I had a hard time dealing with strangers or for lack of a better word 'new' people. I acted out and ran away but was found in short order.
When we went back home, after a while, I began to explore the room where my grandfather had died, always having a look at the spot where I had seen his dying face. I found, among many things that children will find weird and strange, some old and well used books. There were bibles and hymnbooks just like I imagine all the folks growing up at the beginning of the 20th century had. They might have been his wifes (She died fairly young)
I don't know if my grandpa was a religious man. He never told me anything about his beliefs. He never said I would go to hell or heaven for something I would do. If he was a believer, he kept it to himself. Why, I will never know.
One thing I can say for certain: He never forced his view of the world on me.

It might have been the way he was brought up, attaching import to other matters, he might have not cared at all, I like to think he wanted me to find out for myself.

And I did.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jiggerj

 

So are atheists spiritual, or not? I don't think a god is required for someone to be spiritual.

I don't understand? I explained what makes me feel connected to things other than myself. There is a goodness to this world that we can all tap into, and we don't need candles or incantations to do it.

I think "unrelenting atheists" are as such in reaction to the unrelenting religious views that have an affect on their lives somehow for what they would view as no reason at all.

And many forcibly outspoken, "unrelenting" religious folk are, in a large part, completely at fault for this.

If religious people would stop acting as if their theories are facts then the problem would disappear.

reply to post by jiggerj


Yes, the basic human good which can be tapped into by all. Ever read Shambhala by Chogyam Trungpa?

"It is the Shambhala view that every human being has a fundamental nature of goodness, warmth and intelligence. This nature can be cultivated through meditation, following ancient principles, and it can be further developed in daily life, so that it radiates out to family, friends, community and society."

In ancient times, the warrior learned to master the challenges of life, both on and off the battlefield. He acquired a sense of personal freedom and power—not through violence or aggression, but through gentleness, courage, and self-knowledge. The Japanese samurai, the warrior-kings of Tibet, the knights of medieval Europe, and the warriors of the Native American tribes are a few examples of this universal tradition of wisdom.

Shambhala

reply to post by jiggerj

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jiggerj

 

So are atheists spiritual, or not? I don't think a god is required for someone to be spiritual.

I don't understand? I explained what makes me feel connected to things other than myself. There is a goodness to this world that we can all tap into, and we don't need candles or incantations to do it.

Nitrous oxide isn't necessary to make a car go fast either, but it sure helps a lot.

Candles are a concentration aid, as well as a vibrational medium through color. Incantations are little more than a gesture of intent. Intent drives everything in this world, and it is a powerful spiritual tool as well. God or no god, there are more subtle forces in this reality than any of us are aware of. It's those subtle forces that are the most powerful, because even us Homo Sapiens are too clumsy to notice the fine nuances that influence our universe.

There are different levels of spirituality, and some of the more profoundly spiritual can tap into these forces. Everything is composed of the same laws of nature, and these laws can be used to interact with each other. It has been scientifically proven, again and again. The more aware you are, the more you can use the world around you, and the more you understand the lack of necessity to do so.

The problem with humans these days is that they do not understand when to use power, and when NOT to use power. If there is power, it must be used. There is far too much we're not satisfied with to just let power sit around. To know our ideals of perfection and have the means in front of us...it is too much. We must prove we understand perfection before we are allowed the means to attain it.

Quite honestly, I can't decide which one is less likely to come to this realization - Christians or atheists. Atheists don't appreciate imperfection any more than Christians do, so both sides will have difficulty accepting what I'm trying to say here. That's one of the signs of lacking spirituality - the inability to come to terms with that which is necessary. And the inability to tell the difference.

reply to post by LightOrange


Exactly. One thing the religious fanatics don't get is that we simply don't like being lied to. I don't care if somebody is recycling an old lie, a lie is a lie is a lie.

Because they're presumptuous, pedantic (unimaginative), self-righteous jerks..?

At least that's the way many if not most of them come across.

And their favorite haunt is places where issues of theology and faith are being discussed, just to add insult of injury. It's actually pretty funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

The more aware you are, the more you can use the world around you, and the more you understand the lack of necessity to do so.

I have a vague memory of Mother Theresa stopping a war for a day in order to get the children out of harm's way. She had the power to get both sides to agree to stop. Is this the power you speak of?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Haha quite true, something you might enjoy:

reply to post by jiggerj

I have a vague memory of Mother Theresa stopping a war for a day in order to get the children out of harm's way. She had the power to get both sides to agree to stop. Is this the power you speak of?

No. That is power, but power is as clear cut as spirituality or perfect. Power is as you use it. I never before understood that sort of statement, but it's clear to me now. The defining factor is its effect.

Originally posted by jiggerj
The believers in a Grand Poobah in the sky want to know why atheists are fanatical in their attempts to shut down religion and stop unfounded beliefs.

Atheism could be said to have become a religion itself. There are atheists that are agreeable, that simply do not believe in the "beyond physical" and are fine with leaving others to their own beliefs. There are also fanatical atheists just as there are fanatical theists.

I know personally, one of these "fanatical atheists."

This individual's beliefs run directly parallel to the beliefs of a fanatical religious follower, as in there is no debating with this person, they will always be right, in the most absolute sense of right. To this individual, there is no alternative but to accept atheism because to do so would be to believe in something irrational, something that does not exist because there is all of this scientific "evidence." This individual states that a theist person's intelligence quotient tends to fall below 100, which is a bold statement to make, which was probably obtained from some biased statistical analysis, which from my experience, statistics are not to be trusted.

Fanatical atheists do not see the error of their ways because their way has become so supported by their scientific community, their church, if you will, which is itself a religion where alternative theories are rejected and those who might upset the current belief, the current doctrine, are ridiculed and discredited.

I too, was once an "unrelenting" atheist. That is not to say I am now avid religious follower, just that I believe that there is indeed more to reality than science in it's current state of being can ever hope to explain and to not be open to and allow others their different beliefs would be a waste of time and energy for myself. I believe in my own freewill, therefore I must allow others the same freewill.

reply to post by InfinitePerspective


Atheism IS a religion. Scientists have only been able to come up with reasons to think a god or a divine force might not exist, but they have not proven it completely.

The same goes for Christians. They have proof to support their theories, but they fall short of a concrete conclusion.

They fail to realize that according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, the fact that star dust has coalesced into living breathing creatures capable of questioning the star dust from which they came...this is nothing short of a miracle. This world is full of miracles, considering the number of chances everything has had to simply collapse and reform and collapse and reform again, never growing beyond a certain limit because ALL THINGS TEND FROM ORDER TO DISORDER OVER TIME.

We are all the symptoms of a mass miracle. It doesn't have to be a god, but there is certainly something out there. A law or a principle. Something looked at the astronomical odds stacked against this world and said, "No, this is happening." Figuratively, of course.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Atheism IS a religion.

Sigh.........

Atheism is not a religion. Atheism rejects the hypothesis of a god.

About NonStampCollector
If atheism is a "religion",... then Not Collecting Stamps is a "hobby".
If atheism is a "religion", ... then Not Playing Football is a "sport".
If atheism is a "religion", ... then 'OFF' is a "TV channel".
If atheism is a "religion", ..........

"God" is the question, "Nope", is the answer.

I have many atheist friends and think atheism is a perfectly valid philosophical and rational position to hold. But with that said, while I don't go as far as to call atheism itself a religion per se, technically, I will go as far as saying that some who profess to be atheists have faith in my opinion, and profess that faith zealously at times.

On the basis of my previous post in which I concluded...

If you care about anything - family, your own children, etc. anything - and believe it matters beyond your brain's need to think so, you have faith in my opinion, whether you choose to term it such or not.

... because science reveals reality to be arguably quite nihilistic, and because it is thus entirely possible that everything we attach meaning to is objectively meaningless, I hold the opinion that those atheists who believe anything in their life matters beyond the brain's evolutionary tendency to attach meaning to it (for instance, the belief that it is important to lambast and criticize people for their religious beliefs) are possessed of and practicing faith, and using said faith to justify at times zealous condemnation of others.

That's not a popular opinion among atheists. I know this because my own atheistic friends have told me so in many a heated debate. Yet every one of them, without exception, has had to concede that they cannot prove that the things to which they attach meaning and significance in their lives actually possess said meaning and significance inherently, and that said meaning and significance therefore constitutes belief on their part. (With the caveat on their end that, "Our belief is still closer to whatever the objective reality is than religious people's." )

I'm not saying that to pour salt in atheists' britches. I have no argument against or problem with atheism (I myself am an agnostic skeptic which while not the same thing, should at least be relatable to and capable of coexistence with atheism.) I just like reminding my fellow humans occasionally that we are all - atheists included - capable of using belief and bias to attack others with differing views.

Peace.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by InfinitePerspective

 

the fact that star dust has coalesced into living breathing creatures capable of questioning the star dust from which they came...this is nothing short of a miracle.

An atheist would argue that this is not a miracle as it can be explained scientifically, you are simply viewing this concept in a spiritual, rather than scientific way and there is nothing wrong with that.

I feel that the conflicts that arise between atheists and theists is that one must be forced to make a choice between science or spirituality when the fact of the matter is that spirituality is very scientific and science is very spiritual. Human beings always have to categorize things as this or that when the truth is that it is both this and that.

With this in mind, science can only progress so far until spirituality must be accepted in order to progress just as in previous history, spirituality had to accept science in order to progress.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Snsoc

 

Therefore, you have said that there is no God. You cannot make such an assertion without evidence.

The atheist 'claim' is that YOU can't prove the existence of a god. WE cannot prove a negative with a negative because it can't be done on any topic. Until such time as you can do this, we will always claim the right to say that there is no god.

Of course you have a right to say it. But, for the 3rd time, let me say that you have no right to claim it as a fact. When you state that belief in God= belief in chocolate milk coming from brown cows, you are stating that God does not exist, because everyone knows that chocolate milk does not come from brown cows.

You are perfectly free to say you don't believe God exists, but you cannot say that you know he does not exist-and that is what you implied in your original statement.

The atheist claim might be that we cannot prove that God exists-but that is not the claim that you made.

Originally posted by Snsoc

Of course you have a right to say it. But, for the 3rd time, let me say that you have no right to claim it as a fact. When you state that belief in God= belief in chocolate milk coming from brown cows, you are stating that God does not exist, because everyone knows that chocolate milk does not come from brown cows.

You are perfectly free to say you don't believe God exists, but you cannot say that you know he does not exist-and that is what you implied in your original statement.

The atheist claim might be that we cannot prove that God exists-but that is not the claim that you made.

Then you have no right to claim that unicorns don't exist. We know horses are real. We know that creatures with horns exist. We know that creatures with wings exist. Even with ALL this evidence you would readily call it a fact that horses with a horn and wings don't exist.

Yet, there are no little creatures going around creating miracles, no creatures getting squished by cars and coming back to life, no squirrels forming nuts out of thin air... There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER, and you still claim to know that a god exists.