Why is it that people with no knowledge of communism are so against it?

reply to post by ANOK


Modern day "liberalism" and progressivism is FAR from Individualism.

Thomas Jefferson was a real Liberal. We need to clone him 100,000 times and replace all our officials with him.

I believe that not one person that lived under communism completely agrees with the system.

Under communist regime you can not have an abortion if you want to, well you can at home at your own risk for a lot of money. I am not pro abortion but sometimes in certain medical cases or situations is necessary.

You were going to work have a roof under your head some food was rationalized but you could grow your own food, there were not lazy people staying home waiting for government to pay for their kids and their lives not doing anything like you see in certain cases in America where women and even man live fully on food stamps.

There was not a freedom of travel is true and that is a big minus.

Families and friends were much closer together, people were helping each other in need a lot. There was a sense of unity, majority of the people were at the same level.

I remember being able to play outside till late parents letting their kids out to parks on their own, this would never happen today in my country and other countries it is not possible anymore. Never once ever happened to me never even seen anything violent on the streets.

Education was done seriously I learned a lot and i learned good as there were no other distractions.

Did I eat a lot of bread and butter , macaroni and sugar Yes I did as there was not a great variety of foods Would I change any of this now NO I WOULD NOT . I have traveled the world since then and I can tell you I am who I am today the kind , appreciative well rounded person I am today because of how i GREW UP AND NO ONE CAN TELL ME DIFFERENT. I have an idea as how it is to be poor and have only the basics and this is why I can appreciate everything 10000 times more than people I met today in western world this does not mean they do not appreciate at all but I can tell you it is not the same.

Life and communist experience made me the person I am today and at the very end we build characters in people not machines in any society I have a character modeled under communism and I can tell you that everywhere I lived and worked I have always been highly regarded.

If you know how to make the best of it to understand communism and take the experience to live your life in a capitalist / democratic world you can have a very distinct advantage.

Originally posted by NysgjerrigDame

You are correct. I am younger; under thirty. My greatest experience is owning a business of my own and only have 16 employees. You are correct that I am young.

If the Communist take over, you won't own your own business anymore.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by NysgjerrigDame

You are correct. I am younger; under thirty. My greatest experience is owning a business of my own and only have 16 employees. You are correct that I am young.

If the Communist take over, you won't own your own business anymore.

Also true you can not own your own business, there are no entrepreneurial possibilities.

Originally posted by openminded2011
I dont believe "communism" by definition has ever existed. The system that existed in Russia and remaining communist states are totalitarian regimes run by autocrats for autocrats, often killing millions of their own citizens to do so. . They used the guise of "communism" to gain control of the state and take total power. I personally dont believe communism would ever work because it depends on mass altruism and no such thing exists. People can be compassionate, but are inherently selfish. There is nothing wrong with a regulated capitalist society. The problem with our capitalism is not capitalism, its that its not regulated and has run amok. if we can re-regulate it, we can bring back jobs and a good standard of living, all without having to resort to communism.

Agree with you, I've explained much on an earlier post on this thread. People decide to ignore it and keep talking about how communism was when that never ever existed or was used anywhere in the world.

Star,

Cheers,

Andro

Originally posted by NysgjerrigDame
I believe that unless you've read the Communist Manifesot, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, State and Revolution: by Lenin, the Foundations of Leninism, The New Class: Djilas, Combat Liberalism (communists detest liberalism), I do not believe that you have right to talk about it.

edit on 2-1-2013 by NysgjerrigDame because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-1-2013 by NysgjerrigDame because: (no reason given)

Spoken like a true communist, someone doesn't have the "right" to talk about something unless they get approval from a communist to talk about it. I prefer a more Constitutional way of life. Communism is, was and will always be nothing more than post Industrial feudalism.

Originally posted by NysgjerrigDame

Originally posted by hellobruce

Originally posted by NysgjerrigDame
those of you whom have truly stuied the communist works, what is your argument against it?

It has never worked in any country, anywhere.

Actually it worked in Spain before Franco's coup. Care to explain how it did't work? Doubt it.

Then why is not in existence today in it's Utopian form if it were successful? It seems that if it were successful, it would still be practiced today.

Originally posted by NysgjerrigDame
I agree. Most so-called communists just use that fact that communism is most logical and makes the most common sense to become dictators. Examples are the USSR, cuba, North Korea, etc. But nobody ever talks about Spain before Franco's coup. I believe that unless you've read the Communist Manifesot, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, State and Revolution: by Lenin, the Foundations of Leninism, The New Class: Djilas, Combat Liberalism (communists detest liberalism), I do not believe that you have right to talk about it. There are many more works that ought to be read on the matter. Most of ATS believes the lies of the West, but if any, those of you whom have truly studied the communist works, what is your argument against it?

edit on 2-1-2013 by NysgjerrigDame because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-1-2013 by NysgjerrigDame because: (no reason given)

Stealing is immoral. That's the only argument you need.

Or are you going to try and tell everyone that it's ok for a government to take everything you own by force? I personally don't support theft and monopolized power, but hey that's just me.

Originally posted by NysgjerrigDame

Please give me the name of a communist country and I will go there.

If you live where I presume you do according to your avatarname and question, I would like to ask you a question too.

Do you seriously believe that the socialist system of Denmark encourage people to work. Why is it that even before the economic crisis there was a large group of young people in Denmark who decided for themself that it's not worth the time/sweat, when you can get "bailouts" from your government in form of a social aid (ugidelige bistandsklienter)

Two of four current government parties in Denmark got old ties to communism, could that be the reason why they think it's ok to constantly "invent" new taxes, rules and regulations. Tax-money that they afterwards want to send as social wellfare or foreign aid to other countries (Denmark may not have communism, but were not that far away. Talking about Enhedslisten and SF's links to communism)

Why is it that if I work some extra hours or like You aid society with a company that create jobs should be "punished/robbed" for doing a little extra....why am I not allowed to own some blingbling if I do an effort to get it .....please explain to me how communism without exercising power encourages people to aid their society instead of leeching on it - like we've seen in Denmark?

To the OP, after carefully reading your original question again, I have some thoughts.

First, based on your question and some of your reply posts, I would assume that you do have a knowledge about what true communism is. Having that knowledge then, you would know before even asking the question that so many people confuse the "Communist" nations like the USSR and people like Stalin with what the true theory of communism actually is.

You would also know that communism is itself a theory. A philosophy even? You would also know that there is a progression that, according to the theory, must occur in a particular order. You can't skip a step. You can't force a step. It happens when it happens and the time is right.

I guess that in a way what I am getting at here is that, to answer your question, there is no actually being for or against communism. And by communism I mean the true, non perverted theory that was laid out so long ago. I think someone could be a believer in the theory. A believer that someday all this will come to pass, when the time is right. Someone could also believe the theory is flawed and could in no way come to pass. But to go and proclaim the virtues of communism is in itself actually forcing a step. Forcing something that must occur naturally and in it's own time. In a way, it's almost like what happened in Russia and China, when a perverted theory was pushed upon the most vulnerable in society in order to achieve a goal that had absolutely nothing in common with the true theory of communism.

One last thought, I do not think there is any being For or Against communism. I think there is Belief in the theory, or Disbelief in the theory. And neither belief nor disbelief will matter, because true communism will happen when the time is right and nobody will be able to stop it. Or, if the theory is flawed, then it won't ever happen, whether you believe in it or not.

reply to post by chrome413


best response in the whole thread.

I mean it. Sir/ Maam, that is just really well thought and logical, very good.

Nice.

reply to post by NysgjerrigDame


Why? Because they know that communists were always #ed by the government, and because they know that they can be awarded for such a tipp...

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by NysgjerrigDame

 

In a perfect world........
There would be no greed. If there was no greed, then everyone would contribute equally to society and each would be taken care of by that same entity. They would do their respective jobs, smiling all the while, then go home to their apartments, always being careful to limit their child making to the appropriate number of children determined by the government. The Doctor next door would collect the same benefits as the garbage collector in the apartment above him. Yes, utopia. Until.........DUN DUN DUN!!!! someone gets greedy and thinks they deserve just a bit more than others. Then it all starts to unravel quite quickly. The Doctor sees the shop keeper revolting about his wages being the same as the garbage collector! He should be paid more, he has more responsibilities! Then the Doctor starts to think about all his training and hard work. He thinks he should defect and move to a capitalist country and make some real money. Then all the other doctors jump on that bandwagon. Soon after that everyone dies a horrible death. See why communism just doesn't work?

I wouldn't call it "greed" though. I'd call it self interest. It is natural to want to reap the benefits of your own labor.

Well, Doc, in UTOPIA, greed is the same thing. Since Utopia is a mythical place and could never exist, there is no need to make the American dream sound dirty. It's capitalism plain and simple. If you want more, work harder and smarter and you will get more. Sadly, we have a system in place that rewards the lazy folks too. I suppose if I could be happy in that environment, it would be as close to the "Utopian dream" as I could get. Self respect and past experience keeps me away from that trap though.

I don't know why because I'm not such person. What I could say is that I was born in communist country. In PRL today its called Poland and even that we didn't have so bad comparing to Cuba or North Korea I could say from my perspective that Communism in Poland was a complete crap. And I could explain why?

1. Central planing - Officials in capital are deciding for the rest of the country what to produce and where and what amount. It leads to the point where you cant buy any meat, chocolate, fruits, cars, rtv etcetera. In the worst moment there was only mustard and vinegar available. The rest you have to get in different ways, black market, family in other country, own illegal production. This is central panning.

2. Restriction or lack of private property - Everything belong to everyone. This leads to situation when no one feels responsibility for common good. This have terrible influence on everything and specially on public space. Devastation, lack of conservation etcetera. Example - your flat in the building. Its not really yours, it belongs to everyone so its not your matter to worry about conservations or repairs anything because it's not yours. In fact no one cares if you don't care because common property doesn't work at all.

3. Lack of competition - maybe the worst of all things. This affect everything. If you don't have competition you have no real choice or goals. One model of the car in the market, one model of tv, radio. No competition. Factories could produce one and the same model of #yproduct for a decade and you have no choice. You are happy if you could get this. Other example - No matter how good you are in what you are doing you get for your work the same reward as your colleague in work even if he is doing nothing. No one cares who from two of you is working better. If your labor can't be appreciated so why you have to go after. In fact you don't have to and efficiency of the work is abbot 20% or less comparing to capitalism.

And this all belongs to the very core of communism. It even don't have to be not democratic dictatorship to be a complete crap but show me real communism without dictatorship. This is not possible. Communism is such surrealistic world that you couldn't even imagine. Man is tired of living in something like this because the whole time he sees this lack of any sense and you even can't protest against this.

I know that capitalism have so many disadvantages and sometimes this could be very unjust to single people but communism is unjust to majority of people. It is funny but even our former communist officials are happy that previous system collapsed.

reply to post by marbles87

For communism to work it would have to be called something else also to much red fear in general.

It is being called something else now. It is being called "Agenda 21", and "Sustainable Development". They are using lots of neat words to describe their complete Totalitarian takeover of all the lands they can get their grubby hands on. They are using words like "Vision", "Green", "Sustainable", "Stakeholder", "Liveable", "Bikeable"(because they don't want us to use cars), "Public/Private Partnership(because fascism is such a dirty word), and many others.

Originally posted by Bearack

Originally posted by NysgjerrigDame

Originally posted by hellobruce

Originally posted by NysgjerrigDame
those of you whom have truly stuied the communist works, what is your argument against it?

It has never worked in any country, anywhere.

Actually it worked in Spain before Franco's coup. Care to explain how it did't work? Doubt it.

Then why is not in existence today in it's Utopian form if it were successful? It seems that if it were successful, it would still be practiced today.

This ones easy:

We've never had true Communism and the PTB will do everything in their power to insure we don't. Reason being: They will have to work just like everyone else, not just sit ahigh.

I'm surprised so many here at ATS fall so easily for the illusion?

I repeat: TPTB will INSURE Communism NEVER works because they would no longer be elite, they will have to WORK like everyone else.

They insure communism never works by placing and supporting tyrant psychopaths in countries that even THINK about communism. They then allow these sick people to install statist systems yet call themselves communists. To top it off they are SURE to broadcast the atrocities committed and highlight how lucky American citizens are. After all this they then send our soldiers to kill the tyrants they first supported and placed in power.

We may not have the technology to implement communism on a grand scale yet. It would have to be implemented in a ALREADY FREE country. That's what's been missing from the equation.

We need a tech where we can account for and hold responsible EVERY individual in society. That way sick people wouldn't obtain positions of power in the government and then skew the economic system of communism.

If communism was what you have been taught, we would have it here in America. What better way to control your populous? The next best thing to a statist government is a capitalist society. Not as much overt control, but they make money hand over fist.

IN A COMMUNIST SOCIETY WE WOULDN"T HAVE ELITES...THEY WOULD BE WORKING RIGHT BESIDE US!

Think on this for a minute, and reevaluate what you believe about commuism.

It is also closest in "feel" to an ultra right winged conservative country.

Unfortunately, you fail to understand that fascism is just national socialism with a public/private partnership, which blurs the lines between public and private. It is still State run and a huge police to enforce it, and spies to turn people in. This is left wing ideology. Sorry to have to inform. Fascism, Communism, and Socialism all come out of the same left wing ideology, they are just in varying increments of control.
How is fascism in Nazi Germany any different than the Communist Politburo in Russia? They both put people in prisons, spied on people, starved people, controlled people for the common good, and used extensive police force to enforce their rules.
Who in the US is demanding the most rules and regulations to be enforced? Obamacare...HITECH Act...EPA..Environmental Activism...Agenda 21 proponents...demand for people to pay for other people's abortions....forcing people to purchase insurance products or be fined...gun control efforts...liberals in general....

Really, see if you can refute that.

Originally posted by NysgjerrigDame
I agree. Most so-called communists just use that fact that communism is most logical and makes the most common sense to become dictators. Examples are the USSR, cuba, North Korea, etc.

Just to clarify, most communist INDIVIDUALS are not minature dictators, and are very upset at the way that what should be a perfect system of government and way of life even, has been usurped by gangsters and fascists over the years, which has lead to the negative and skewed view of the whole political ideal that it promotes, in the eyes of the watching world.

But nobody ever talks about Spain before Franco's coup. I believe that unless you've read the Communist Manifesot, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, State and Revolution: by Lenin, the Foundations of Leninism, The New Class: Djilas, Combat Liberalism (communists detest liberalism), I do not believe that you have right to talk about it.

People have the right to say whatever pleases them, but they have a responsibility to make thier contribution count. It only reflects poorly on them when thier opinions are clearly un-informed. It is not for anyone to dictate who may, and who may not comment on any given topic. Dictatorship is not acceptable to a true communist after all, and silencing debate, no matter how intellectually valid, is not therefore acceptable either.

There are many more works that ought to be read on the matter. Most of ATS believes the lies of the West, but if any, those of you whom have truly studied the communist works, what is your argument against it?

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edit on 2-1-2013 by NysgjerrigDame because: (no reason given)

I have no argument against communism, as I personally respect many of its principles, including the focus on the needs and hopes of the working man. But, I personally believe that communism should FREE people, not bind them, and therefore I do not believe that it is appropriate for you to be so harsh about peoples poor information. Free them through education, rather than binding them into silence, and perhaps communism may have a chance to flourish.

I remember when I was in high school I was a huge fan of communism. I read all the books I could about it. Hell, I even tried to make my own city communist party. But, I was quickly turned off by something.

My senior year, I teamed up with a fellow comrade to complete a project for a class, a programing class Java I think. We did a simulation program that would simulate countries ran by different types of government. It was a long and tedious process to get it right, and still may have not been perfect since we were still kids and had yet to gain a better understanding of governments. Shockingly for us, communism had a low success rate. We tweaked and tweaked, thinking we didn't make the variables specific enough, but nothing seemed to make it better. In fact, things got worse. Sometimes I want to revisit the program and implement my knowledge now to see what the outcomes are. Someday. Got an A on the project and later used it to get an A in my economics class. Haha.

My biggest belief is that the one factor to communism never working is human nature.

Originally posted by NysgjerrigDame
I agree. Most so-called communists just use that fact that communism is most logical and makes the most common sense to become dictators. Examples are the USSR, cuba, North Korea, etc. But nobody ever talks about Spain before Franco's coup. I believe that unless you've read the Communist Manifesot, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, State and Revolution: by Lenin, the Foundations of Leninism, The New Class: Djilas, Combat Liberalism (communists detest liberalism), I do not believe that you have right to talk about it. There are many more works that ought to be read on the matter. Most of ATS believes the lies of the West, but if any, those of you whom have truly studied the communist works, what is your argument against it?

edit on 2-1-2013 by NysgjerrigDame bec ause: (no reason given)

edit on 2-1-2013 by NysgjerrigDame because: (no reason given)

Study it by reading up on it? How academic of you! Isn't academia nice?

I studied communism from the wrong end of their guns. I saw what it did to the people who it steamrolled.

Sure, I hate communism - for cause. I'll go to my grave hating it. There is nothing you can read that will erase what I've seen.