Christian Crusade against Christians? the Cathar extermination

Catharism had its roots in Armenia and Bulgaria sometime around 11th century AD. Cathar texts refer to fellow cathars as "good men" (bons hommes) or "good christians"

During the 1200s the pope (appropriately named Innocent III) launched "holy wars" the Albigensian Crusade to extinguish all Cathars then the Medieval Inquisition to finish the task. Apparently the movement was so ruthless that entire towns, villages regardless of faiths were destroyed in the name of cleansing Christianity of all cathars ("Kill them all. God will know his own"-Innocent III's words) and possibly securing the seat of the Holy Grail, with the Roman Catholic Church. Not sure, but seems like a rough death toll of Cathars would be at least half a million?

www.cathar.info...


^interesting lil series.

What a church! It isn't behind any modern day "crusades" or genocides.. is it?

The term Catholic Christianity entered into Roman law by force of edict under the Roman Emperor Theodosius on February 27 AD 380 in the Theodosian Code XVI.i.2:

"It is our desire that all the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation, should continue the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter, as it has been preserved by faithful tradition and which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness. According to the apostolic teaching and the doctrine of the Gospel, let us believe in the one Deity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title Catholic Christians;
but as for the others,
since in our judgment they are foolish madmen,
we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics,
and shall not presume to give their conventicles the name of churches.
They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of divine condemnation and the second the punishment of our authority, in accordance with the will of heaven shall decide to inflict."

from Wikipedia Portal ;Catholicism

the edict that started it all

reply to post by minnow


Not to defend the Catholic Church of the past for some of their atrocities, but you're not showing the whole picture here. The Cathars weren't Christian, by definition, being Gnostic-oriented non-Trinitarians. They were just another group that didn't believe in orthodox Christianity, they just happened to have Jesus as a part of their belief system. Secondly, there was a political aspect to the conflict in addition to the religious one, as was usually the case in that time period. Finally, the Pope attempted to resolve the issues diplomatically, but had his representative murdered by the Cathars, which is what led to the Albigensian Crusade.

Great thread OP , it is interesting how few know of the historical adoption of Christianity by the Sociopathic Roman Empire, in order to mind control and neuter the" barbarians".

True Christians have always been persecuted, and they continue to be executed today ie in Nigeria, Burma, ect,ect.

The Chinese do not allow Christianity, the Russians tried to exterminate all Christians.
Christianity is ridiculed in Hollywood productions and here on ATS, whilst the ridiculing of Islam, and Judaism is discouraged.
You will find the Christians of catholic persuasion who conducted the masacres were in fact just Roman puppets, as in the Spanish inquisitions.

Christianity is absolutely allowed in China.

I have lived in China for Seven years and there are various churches here. What is not allowed is using church gatherings to promote civil unrest or attempt to disrupt government. Christianity is one of the fastest growing religions in China and the government is fine with it as long as not used to promote unrest.

There is no evidence Cathars killed the Pope's envoy, but it would not have mattered. The Cathars represented a grave threat to the Medieval church and must be destroyed or Church would be suffer. Cathars did not believe in Wars, murder for any reason, and related pacifist beliefs. This conflicted greatly with the Church and its preference of conquering lands and killing those that did not accept their religion. Cathar was spreading very quickly and was a singular threat.
What we call the Inquisition, was the tail end of the mission to eliminate the Cathars. Once the Cathars were murdered and their writings and records wiped away, the organization in place set it sights on further threats to the church; trade guilds like the midwives, pagan religions, anyone deemed to be a heretic, etc.
We can read how Cathar assets and lands were confiscated, midwives lands and hospitals were seized, anyone that had assets the church would confiscate and take them after the accused was murdered.
It was wholesale slaughter that lasted for hundreds of years and made the church fabulously wealthy.

reply to post by JackMack

You seem to possess knowledge on this subject, I would like to ask you a question, and it is a serious one ok I could advanc e search google eit ect.
But do you think the term cathartic comes from , the group the OP mentions?

From the documentary series: Secret Files of the Inquisition.

By 1308 the Cathars were already reduced to a network of fugitives.

However, in France the "heresy" persisted, until the Dominicans were directed by the Catholic Church to root out the last Cathars.

This is a clip from the first episode (first 14 minutes).



I'd think a Cathar society would have been more rural-based, with less people and overcrowding, and a more vegetarian diet.
They may appear more "noble" in hindsight due to the persecutions, but they were probably also quite dogmatic as a "church".

That may be speculation.
What is known is that the peasants (and even some clergy) saw them as spiritually "good men".

And who can say what is "Christian"?
The Protestants would later be considered as similar heretics.

Many "Christians" today would probably have been burnt at the stake as heretics when the Cathars were persecuted.

The whole Westboro church would have been one enormous bonfire.

reply to post by OrionsWitness

The Chinese do not allow Christianity, the Russians tried to exterminate all Christians.
Christianity is ridiculed in Hollywood productions and here on ATS, whilst the ridiculing of Islam, and Judaism is discouraged.

You may not have noticed, but Islam is insulted on ATS on a daily basis.
Fact.

reply to post by minnow

Christians ain't Christians.

Originally posted by halfoldman
And who can say what is "Christian"?

Well, Christians can. And it comes down to those who accept the Nicene Creed (in one of its forms) as being the basis of their faith. Non Trinitarians (like the Cathars) are not Christians, because they reject the Nicene Creed.

Many "Christians" today would probably have been burnt at the stake as heretics when the Cathars were persecuted.

Burning at the stake was largely a Protestant punishment, not a Catholic one.

The whole Westboro church would have been one enormous bonfire.

Well, there probably wouldn't be many complaining about that. Westboro is Baptist only because the Baptist church has a Congregationalist Polity -- each congregation determines what its theology is, so there's no way to "kick them out of the church."

reply to post by adjensen


Yes, I suppose the Nicene Creed could be used as a standard today.
It wasn't ubiquitously accepted at first, and many of the "Christian" Germanic lands continued as followers of Arius.
en.wikipedia.org...

Today groups who don't follow it are usually labelled "cults" by the mainstream churches, although many of those consider themselves Bible-based Christians (while they might in turn not consider Catholics as Bible-based Christians whatsoever).

In the documentary mentioned in my post it certainly shows people burnt at the stake (also during the Spanish Inquisition, mainly to root out continuing "heresy" amongst the forced Jewish converts), and they also boiled people in oil.
All the Nicene-based faiths were pretty inventive in how they roasted heretics.
Original Calvinism (of which I think Westboro is an off-shoot) had a particularly horrific start.

The Cathars were famed for voluntarily walking into the flames during the Albigensian Crusade.
gofrance.about.com...

reply to post by OrionsWitness




The word Cathartic does not come from medieval time period, it is Greek and refers to cleansing process, although it does seem to fit from the Church's perspective doesn't it.

We don't know what Cathars called themselves, we identify them as Cathars. The church burned almost everything the could find to stamp the competing belief system out of existence.

there is an excellent description of the Cathars on this site...
Anciet Quest

The Cathars of the Languedoc were dualist heretics who probably presented the greatest doctrinal challenge faced by the Catholic church in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries.

The word Cathar comes from the Greek katharos, meaning pure.

They were dissident, pacific Christians who would not accept the orthodox position that an omnipotent and eternal God could possibly have been responsible for the material world of matter, as to them, this world was the product of an evil creator, not a good one

The Cathars believed that matter was evil, and that Man (Humanity) was an alien sojourner in an essentially evil world. Therefore, the main aim of Man was to free his spirit, which was in its nature good, and restore it with God.

They did not believe in a Last Judgement, believing instead that this material world would end only when the last of the angelic souls had been released from it. They believed in reincarnation, and that souls could take many lifetimes to reach perfection before their final release.

They were successful healers and doctors, and knew a great deal about herbalism. Overall, the Cathars had a large number of followers, and the greatest success in southern France and northern Italy. Soon, with such radical beliefs and large numbers, they became a definite threat to the Catholic church, and the Inquisition was finally launched on them, culminating in one of the bloodiest, ruthless crusades the world has ever seen.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by minnow

 

Not to defend the Catholic Church of the past for some of their atrocities, but you're not showing the whole picture here. The Cathars weren't Christian, by definition, being Gnostic-oriented non-Trinitarians. They were just another group that didn't believe in orthodox Christianity, they just happened to have Jesus as a part of their belief system. Secondly, there was a political aspect to the conflict in addition to the religious one, as was usually the case in that time period. Finally, the Pope attempted to resolve the issues diplomatically, but had his representative murdered by the Cathars, which is what led to the Albigensian Crusade.

Peter and Paul! Has a lot to do with some theories about the Catholic Church forming Islam because their type of Christian, the Peter ones, ie. The Nazarenes and Gnostic ones, had spread throught the lands....

They were proberly the true or real Christians. Hence the holy roman empire gang, wiped them out. Didnt want competition, or the real truth coming out about their own version of the spirit in the sky.

reply to post by JackMack

Christianity is absolutely allowed in China.

Well it depends on how you define Christianity, my understanding is that the government took the idea of protestantism and created its own Christian sect in China, ministers are ordained by dictate of the government.

I'm not an expert but that was the idea I got from the info I have seen about the subject.

reply to post by Panic2k11



The Christians ive met here are pretty much the same as in the USA or Europe, Africa and South America and Canada and anywhere else.

What you read is False, the Government of China does not involve itself in religion, and would certainly not be organizing or supporting or involving itself in a religion.

reply to post by JackMack

What you read is False, the Government of China does not involve itself in religion, and would certainly not be organizing or supporting or involving itself in a religion.

That statement is wrong, I will not comment further on the Christian aspect but I have seen not contradiction of what I stated, the structure of the Christian church in China is state controlled it does not come from the Vatican or an quasi-independent structure like the Church of England (Crown) or other independent sects.

In fact looking on how the Chinese state responds to religion in general denies any validity to your statement look on how they attempted to replace the Dalai Lama or have suppressed several sects, even Mussulman minorities. The state is clearly extremely involved in social control and that includes religion.

reply to post by Panic2k11




I live in China and can tell you the State does not involve itself in religion, its organization or supporting one over another. I know many people that practice religions openly; Buddhism, Christianity, Tao, Hinduism, etc...Government does not care as long as the practice does not involve civil or government unrest.

As far as the Dali Lama, it is when people attempt to organize civil unrest the government cracks down. If people live and let live there is no problem.

reply to post by JackMack


I do not know if you are intentionally being obtuse or do not really know the big picture beyond what directly may surround you.

From wikipedia's article Religion in China

Christianity

Religious practices are still often tightly controlled by government authorities. Currently, Chinese over age 18 in the PRC are permitted to be involved with officially sanctioned Christian meetings through the "Three-Self Patriotic Movement" or the "Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association". Many Chinese Christians who want to avoid the state-controlled religious movements meet in unregistered house churches – "risking fines, imprisonment, torture, and even, in some cases, death."

we could then extend more on what I have already said and prove that what you claim is clearly not mirrored by evidences, even if I would agree that the government only takes action if there is a risk to an increase in social unrest, but then we would have to consider why such unrest arises or why isn't China's government able to deal in a more open way (like for instance in increasingly social repressive UK, half-joking).

Take also the example of the Falun Gong

Falun Gong’s departure from the state-run Qigong Association corresponded to a wider shift in the government’s attitudes towards qigong practices. As qigong’s detractors in government grew more influential, authorities began attempting to rein in the growth and influence of these groups, some of which had amassed tens of millions of followers.

There is a large number of examples that contradict your observations, in regards to Tibet and the Dalai lama, I agree that it goes beyond simple religious issues but ultimately its a religious issue.

I think that at the core the issue the government has problems with religions is because it forms distinct social groups, and they understand that groups have more strength than single individuals to make demands. This is also why there are no unions in China.