USA has the most armed citizenry; with Yemen a distant 2nd.

The US,China, Russia, Germany and France are the worlds largest arms dealers.

Newcovenant a fact for you to consider
JFK was killed by the MOB NOT NOT NOT lee harvey oswald so you bringing that up is pointless
and yes at that time in American history you could order directly from a catalog with no background check etc....as soon as JFK was killed a knee jerk reaction happened(as usual) and they put all types of laws on the books
Here is another fact to consider....there are more laws on the books pertaining to firearms than ANYTHING ELSE even more than the tax codes So another law is NOT what we need, they need to enforce what they have

Originally posted by panicman66
Can't be bothered to get all the statistics. But Sweden as more guns per-people than any other country in the world, and yet they have nearly zero gun crime.

I suppose some one on here could get all the correct stats, but if not go check it for your selves.

You're thinking of switzerland, where every citizen is required by law to own a fully automatic rifle, a cache of ammo, and know how to use it.

There's almost no gun crime.

America doesn't have a gun problem, it has a crime problem.
You won't solve the crime problem by trying to restrict guns.

reply to post by newcovenant

Try to get a grip on where the guns that are made are going. We know where they all start out. How do they end up in the hands of criminals? WHICH private gun dealers are dropping the ball? When you find out and make them pay others will hesitate to do the same. Maybe they will find another way but it will be more difficult and more costly for them and that will slow them down long enough for us to change a generation of culture.

Good luck with that! While we're at it, maybe we can stop all the drugs and illegals from coming over our southern border, no?

Originally posted by newcovenant


40% of gun sales are illegal, unregulated, untraceable. That's almost half. We don't even know if these sales are taking place in the US. What is to stop US weapons Mfgs from selling to terrorists or our sworn enemies, or countries we may do battle with? Wouldn't a weapons mfg supply both sides? And if not, why not?

]

If the gun sales are untraceable, how do you know they make up 40%?

Yet another one of those lib statistics that has no teeth and contradicts itself.

Originally posted by Rise27
Militia is defined as the whole body of people who are fit to bear arms and fight.

"well regulated" is synonymous with "well trained" in colonial vernacular.

www.guncite.com...

In other words: the founders believed that an armed populace who knew who to fight was essential to the security of our freedom, and that it should never be infringed.

The moment you surrender your guns to the central authoritatian state is when you are at the mercy of whatever authoritarian regime comes into power.

edit on 29-12-2012 by Rise27 because: (no reason given)

This.

Wonder if the antigunners were caught in crossfire where would they run?

Originally posted by Rise27

Originally posted by panicman66
Can't be bothered to get all the statistics. But Sweden as more guns per-people than any other country in the world, and yet they have nearly zero gun crime.

I suppose some one on here could get all the correct stats, but if not go check it for your selves.

You're thinking of switzerland, where every citizen is required by law to own a fully automatic rifle, a cache of ammo, and know how to use it.

There's almost no gun crime.

America doesn't have a gun problem, it has a crime problem.
You won't solve the crime problem by trying to restrict guns.

edit on 29-12-2012 by Rise27 because: (no reason given)

Yes, Switzerland. Sweden's full of a bunch of hippie types...do they even have guns there? (Isn't that the country where you can go to jail for spanking your child?)

I'll go a step further...America has a morality problem. Get morality and God back into society and crime magically goes down.

Of course, we have just about gone to the point of no return in that realm.

Originally posted by newcovenant
USA has the most armed citizenry; with Yemen a distant 2nd.

reply to post by CristobalColonic


The irony is that sidewalk chalk contains more lead than bullets. And that the NRA is 4 times older than sidewalk chalk.

It's also the same age as the oldest cement based sidewalks in the US

It's also older than asphalt

And The Federal Reserve

Also that 8 presidents going back as far as Grant were members

George Bush Sr, John F. Kennedy, Dwight Eisenhower, Teddy Roosevelt, Ronald Reagan, Ulysses S. Grant, William Howard Taft and Richard Nixon

Originally posted by circuitsports
reply to post by CristobalColonic

 

The irony is that sidewalk chalk contains more lead than bullets. And that the NRA is 4 times older than sidewalk chalk.

It's also the same age as the oldest cement based sidewalks in the US

It's also older than asphalt

And The Federal Reserve

Also that 8 presidents going back as far as Grant were members

George Bush Sr, John F. Kennedy, Dwight Eisenhower, Teddy Roosevelt, Ronald Reagan, Ulysses S. Grant, William Howard Taft and Richard Nixon

edit on 30-12-2012 by circuitsports because: (no reason given)

Those quaint old days when it was a gun club, and long before they became a sales arm for weapons manufacturers.

And they had such a distinguished member list BECAUSE their Motto used to be:

"Firearms safety education, Marksmanship training, Shooting for recreation"

Then they were co-opted by weapons manufacturers.

Since that time their motto has been, (like any industry out to make a profit)

"Sell More Guns."

Whoa baby....lets take this down a notch.

Originally posted by lilmehere

Originally posted by Rise27

Originally posted by panicman66
Can't be bothered to get all the statistics. But Sweden as more guns per-people than any other country in the world, and yet they have nearly zero gun crime.

I suppose some one on here could get all the correct stats, but if not go check it for your selves.

You're thinking of switzerland, where every citizen is required by law to own a fully automatic rifle, a cache of ammo, and know how to use it.

There's almost no gun crime.

America doesn't have a gun problem, it has a crime problem.
You won't solve the crime problem by trying to restrict guns.

edit on 29-12-2012 by Rise27 because: (no reason given)

Yes, Switzerland. Sweden's full of a bunch of hippie types...do they even have guns there? (Isn't that the country where you can go to jail for spanking your child?)

I'll go a step further...America has a morality problem. Get morality and God back into society and crime magically goes down.

Of course, we have just about gone to the point of no return in that realm.

Look how THE MOST moral, and God and God fearing men protected thousands of little boys who put faith in them and the Catholic Church. They did such a good job impressing their own "superior morality" on these kids they have their own survivor - self help group, called SNAP

Survivor Network for those Abused by Priests

Yeah..Let's bring God back into things....
Let's try some common sense.

Originally posted by themutant
Newcovenant a fact for you to consider
JFK was killed by the MOB NOT NOT NOT lee harvey oswald so you bringing that up is pointless
and yes at that time in American history you could order directly from a catalog with no background check etc....as soon as JFK was killed a knee jerk reaction happened(as usual) and they put all types of laws on the books
Here is another fact to consider....there are more laws on the books pertaining to firearms than ANYTHING ELSE even more than the tax codes So another law is NOT what we need, they need to enforce what they have

Why isn't anyone saying that then?
Why is everyone saying
"Guns are great and we need more of them!"

I hear that message and it bites.

My response is... are you out of your friggin' mind?
No offense but this is a sick country...over medicated with a warped set of values, rotting from the inside.
We need some mental help and inpatient programs BEFORE we start arming every Joe and Jane Blow.

One freaking problem at a time. I think we are safe from a government takeover - for a while anyway...
You know? Solve a darn problem. Pick a problem and solve it. Don't make it worse and don't play devils advocate. Solve the problem. That's all I'm asking.

Originally posted by lilmehere

Originally posted by newcovenant


40% of gun sales are illegal, unregulated, untraceable. That's almost half. We don't even know if these sales are taking place in the US. What is to stop US weapons Mfgs from selling to terrorists or our sworn enemies, or countries we may do battle with? Wouldn't a weapons mfg supply both sides? And if not, why not?

]

If the gun sales are untraceable, how do you know they make up 40%?

Yet another one of those lib statistics that has no teeth and contradicts itself.

I'll go slow....

You start out with 100 guns.

You know that because you made them.
They have serial numbers. Within a year you can only account for 60 of them.
40 vanished from the face of the earth.

So people are saying, Why not keep better track of the guns? And you meet this with scorn?
As someone mentioned usefully above, enforce existing laws. Be a part of the solution anyway, not the problem. 8 kids die in gun related deaths daily. (I know you have your own set of facts) We don't need anymore devils advocates. Fix the problem. Otherwise your 2nd amendment freedom is getting about as cumbersome and useless as our 4th amendment freedom was. You may not know what it is, because you don't have it any more.

Originally posted by Propulsion
reply to post by newcovenant

 

Try to get a grip on where the guns that are made are going. We know where they all start out. How do they end up in the hands of criminals? WHICH private gun dealers are dropping the ball? When you find out and make them pay others will hesitate to do the same. Maybe they will find another way but it will be more difficult and more costly for them and that will slow them down long enough for us to change a generation of culture.

Good luck with that! While we're at it, maybe we can stop all the drugs and illegals from coming over our southern border, no?

Illegals are leaving the country in record numbers...have you noticed the price of fruit?

And if you legalized and regulated drugs,
gave stiff fines for public impairment you would
1. stop the reign of drug kingpins
2. and make the profits ourselves
3. AND clean up the streets,
4. and (most impt to liberals) give people their right to self govern, have liberty.
(essence of liberal thinking is people CAN do what they want, as long as they are not HARMING another.)

The NRA's mission is the same as it always was promote and protect the second amendment rights.

I guess you expect them to go up against the most well funded political machine in the world and countless special interest groups all with there own and sometimes nefarious agendas with a whole 1.25 to pay for it all. Of course they get manufacturer support, they can't live without it against a tidal wave of selfish morons who don't care about other peoples rights only there own opinions.

There are 200 million firearms at least in this country - the people have spoken and institutions like the NRA make sure the right people listen.

If you don't want to own a gun, don't buy one - the evil big bad NRA isnt forcing anyone to own guns - only that they have the right to choose.

Originally posted by circuitsports
The NRA's mission is the same as it always was promote and protect the second amendment rights.

I guess you expect them to go up against the most well funded political machine in the world and countless special interest groups all with there own and sometimes nefarious agendas with a whole 1.25 to pay for it all. Of course they get manufacturer support, they can't live without it against a tidal wave of selfish morons who don't care about other peoples rights only there own opinions.

There are 200 million firearms at least in this country - the people have spoken and institutions like the NRA make sure the right people listen.

If you don't want to own a gun, don't buy one - the evil big bad NRA isnt forcing anyone to own guns - only that they have the right to choose.

No it isn't.

It is to sell guns.

The NRA had nothing, ZERO, to do with the 2nd amendment, at it's outset and for most of it's existence. Look it up. The guns were for RECREATION ONLY. It was a group of sportsman and hunters.

Then the NRA was co-opted by gun manufacturers.

They decided they wanted to (effectively) form a "militia" of their own,
and used the 2nd amendment to do it.

I own a gun and won't give up the right to own one.
Nobody is asking me to. The NRA is doing me no favors.

But I certainly am not going to respond to recent events by supporting gun salesman.

I'm not an NRA promoter. Let them sell their own guns. I think instilling fear where it isn't, (like National Parks and Public venues) is a dirty way to sell guns, but hey it's free market Capitalism at it's best right?

Conscience free that is.

Originally posted by newcovenant

Originally posted by lilmehere

Originally posted by newcovenant


40% of gun sales are illegal, unregulated, untraceable. That's almost half. We don't even know if these sales are taking place in the US. What is to stop US weapons Mfgs from selling to terrorists or our sworn enemies, or countries we may do battle with? Wouldn't a weapons mfg supply both sides? And if not, why not?

]

If the gun sales are untraceable, how do you know they make up 40%?

Yet another one of those lib statistics that has no teeth and contradicts itself.

I'll go slow....

You start out with 100 guns.

You know that because you made them.
They have serial numbers. Within a year you can only account for 60 of them.
40 vanished from the face of the earth.

So people are saying, Why not keep better track of the guns? And you meet this with scorn?
As someone mentioned usefully above, enforce existing laws. Be a part of the solution anyway, not the problem. 8 kids die in gun related deaths daily. (I know you have your own set of facts) We don't need anymore devils advocates. Fix the problem. Otherwise your 2nd amendment freedom is getting about as cumbersome and useless as our 4th amendment freedom was. You may not know what it is, because you don't have it any more.

The reason he can’t figure out what you are talking about is because you won’t state exactly what “sales” you are referring to. You just kept coming back with the attention grabbing “40% illegal” figure, and not qualifying it in any way. It even had me scratching my head.

I was thinking that if any gun manufacture couldn’t account for the sale of 40 percent of their yearly stock, then it would be headline news across the country.

You are talking about private sales after the original purchase of the gun from the retailer.

News flash!!!!!!
Logical fallacy here.
“Illegal” is mutually exclusive of “unregulated”
The only way you can make an illegal sale is if selling that object is regulated. If an action is unregulated (no regulations) then it is impossible to break regulations that don’t exist.

You are trying to imply that any weapons transfers that are not registered/recorded, are illegal, when they are not. You, in a round about way, are basically saying we should have a national gun registry. That is the only way you could achieve “legal person to person sales” in your book. Where all firearms are accounted for throughout their life.

The problem is, what you classify as illegal, is not what the government classifies as illegal. I could go around complaining that 90 percent of cars are not legally equipped because they don’t have a CB radio in them. But the problem is the law doesn’t require people to have CB radios in their car. So all I am doing by running around and saying that is making myself look like an idiot.

And here is another news flash. The number of weapons made and sold in the US that still belong to the original owner, or an owner that purchased them through an FFL is probably far less than 60%. I would doubt if it was even 20%

Originally posted by Mr Tranny

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by Mr Tranny

 

How can you balance the deaths of children with your fear of government takeover? I think there has to be a way to prevent both but you have given up already. Its reprehensible.

There is no way to balance two mutually exclusive things. The only way to obtain any of one, is to totally throw away all of the other. If you have any freedom at all, you will have people that will do bad things with that freedom no mater how little of that freedom they may have.

The only way you can prevent people from doing bad things, is by taking away their ability to do things in private, and to take away anything they can do anything bad things with. To take away all their rights in so many words.

If people have a right to do things in private, then they have the ability to plan bad things in private, and to set things in motion to carry them out. Even if you take away the stuff they can do bad things with, if they have privacy then they can reconstitute them on their own. There is no way in the modern world to prevent someone from making something dangerous. It’s too easy. The only way to stop it is constant surveillance of everyone. Every second of every day. Look at the UK, they are already trying to go down that road.

The trampling of the 4th that you so decry is one of the very thing that helps the government to stop things like this from happening.

It is a basic logical relation. No mater how badly you want 2 + 2 to equal 10, it is not going to happen. The only way to fix one, is to break the other. There is no way to get around it. It has been tried time and time again.

In your quest to stop one thing, you give so much of another thing up (rights) that you set yourself, and everyone else, up for something far worse than those kids experienced. You set yourself, and all your descendents up for a life under tyranny.

There is no way to “solve this problem”. The only thing you can do is try to minimize the damage one crazy person can do. The only way to do that is to kill that person when he starts to do something like this, not after he has already finished shooting everyone he wants to. The only way you can do that is make sure that the people defending themselves has the ability to fight back. The right to bear arms like the constitution stipulates.

“If a problem has no solution, it may not be a problem, but a fact, not to be solved, but to be coped with over time.” -- Shimon Peres

Do not ignore the wisdom of your forefathers. They have already been through this, and learned the lessons the hard way. Do not repeat their mistakes, just to relearn the same lessons.

This isn't true. None of it. It is all incorrect opinion without a fact in it.
In fact we are in some kind of "opposite world" here above.

Originally posted by newcovenant
This isn't true. None of it.

Nice concise retort. You just disproved it all with that well written statement.

reply to post by Mr Tranny

About 40% of gun sales are made without a background check to see if the purchaser is a criminal or otherwise prohibited from buying guns.

www.bradycenter.org...

In 1993, Congress passed the Brady Bill, named for President Reagan’s press secretary James Brady, who had been critically wounded in the assassination attempt on President Reagan. The Brady Bill created a system of background checks that helped to make real the purpose of the 1968 law. Unfortunately, incomplete records and loopholes in the law have stopped background checks from doing their job: • The Columbine killers got around the system by using guns bought at a gun show from an unlicensed seller: no paperwork, no questions asked. • At Virginia Tech, a killer got a gun he should have been prohibited from buying because his records were never reported to the FBI’s gun background check system. • The shooter in Tucson also got a gun he should have been prohibited from buying because his records weren’t in the database – and then got a second gun because lax federal regulations frustrated the intent of the law. Most murders that take place with illegal guns do not make the headlines. Every day, 34 Americans are murdered with guns, and most of them are possessed illegally. Since, 1968, more than 400,000 Americans have been killed with guns.

www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org...