Rationalizing Hell

Originally posted by guitarplayer
To begin with your primise that all non beleivers go to hell where is that found in Christian doctine?

There are probably as many "takes" on the question as their are "Christians"...but, just for starters, here are a few?

Southern Baptist Convention Tenets of Faith
www.sbc.net...
(under "Last Things")

Assemblies of God - 16 Fundamental Truths
ag.org...
(item #15 - ...Final Judgment...)

United Methodist Church
www.umc.org...
(3rd paragraph, beginning with - "The traditional Christian view...")

Indeed...rationalising hell...

Through the auspices of a Source, so loving of his/her creations (because coersion is not a loving gesture), one important mechanism was installed...FREE WILL...the 'rules' of this mechanism include the ability to imagine into ethereal 'existence' places, such as this...hell...others will tell you hell exists on earth...same mechanism, same result...

The Source does not intervene (except in exceptional circumstance) to remove this given (and unreclaimable) gift - (as we are all part of himself/herself, and doing so would be removing from himself/herself)...

Stories of people going to hell are stories of either thier own 'solidified' thoughtform, or that of others - in effect, they are 'real'...

Other cosmologies describe these loci, and impress the nature of them on the travelling consciousness...Bardo Thodol...

The christian perspective is tangled with the erroneous musings and deliberations of men and women of scant understanding of even the most basic teachings of even thier greatest prophet, who intimated all that has been said above...

A99

what does the bible say about the great white thrown of judgement? If your name is not in the lambs book of life then you will be judged by your actions. Those born before or have never heard the Gospel will be judged by their actions. Theological doctrine is built around certain supposed truths perceived at the time of the doctrine being introduced. Are all doctrines valid? That would be the topic of a different stripe than the one here about hell.

Originally posted by WanDash

Originally posted by guitarplayer
To begin with your primise that all non beleivers go to hell where is that found in Christian doctine?

There are probably as many "takes" on the question as their are "Christians"...but, just for starters, here are a few?

Southern Baptist Convention Tenets of Faith
www.sbc.net...
(under "Last Things")

Assemblies of God - 16 Fundamental Truths
ag.org...
(item #15 - ...Final Judgment...)

United Methodist Church
www.umc.org...
(3rd paragraph, beginning with - "The traditional Christian view...")

Originally posted by Raelsatu
I was unsure of whether I should post this in the religion forum or not; but it's more of an open question regarding the idea of hell. This is an inquiry for the religious, non-religious, and those that would consider themselves spiritual in some form.

Maybe it would have been much better if you didn't post anything about it, at all. There's nothing worse than a hell troll thread, nothing.

originally posted by: followtheevidence
The doctrine of eternal conscious torment is a totally fictitious man-made heretical doctrine that is found NO WHERE in Scripture.

I've written exhaustively on the subject after performing countless hours of exegetical and hermeneutical study, cross referencing, etc., ... perhaps I should post my essays on ATS someday. Again, no where in Scripture does it speak of some mythical place in the New Heaven and New Earth where the fallen will suffer eternally in some dark corner of His restored universe, conveniently and neatly stowed from everything else. This is an abominable, absurd, self-refuting concept - not in keeping with the character of God or His revelation. Not logical or even theoretically possible. It's a ridiculously insane notion. Contemporary and ancient Jew alike did/do not recognize hell in the sense that Western Christianity does.

Hell is not a place; it is an event.

It is eternal only in consequence, not duration.

That being said ...

Even if you don't believe Scripture to be the true word of God, you can be certain that it does not speak of eternal conscious torment of the fallen in some ghoulish torturous hellfire (regardless of who the author is). I submit to you the following:

Scripture makes it clear that those who reject God will cease to exist; will be blotted out of existence. Hell IS a punishment, but it is not eternal.

Please consider: the Almighty - absolute reality, beingness itself - has created corporeal, conscious beings capable of understanding that He exists, who He is, and with that knowledge the ability to freely reject or freely accept Him.

When one of God's created decides they want nothing to do with Him or His law or His nature or His eternity or His path - what is He to do? Is He to bind you to himself for eternity against your will? Is that just? Is that fair? Is that wisdom?

In the end He is left with no choice but your own.

Would you actually WANT to be forced into His fold after knowingly and willfully rejecting Him?

As such, He has but one choice left which satisfies His standards for both justice and mercy.

You simply cease to exist - a bleak enough prospect, to be sure. But it's either that or forcing you against your will to join His kingdom. It is God, our Creator, framer of worlds ... honoring your free will in the highest degree imaginable.

And so it is ...

God decides to honor your free will in allowing you to reject Him, reject life itself ... or God decides to bind you to Himself for eternity without your consent.

Which of the two options is the higher justice? The higher mercy?

The idea of eternal suffering seems implausible to me as well. But I don't quite understand your alternative, either.

Why did He create unbelievers at all if he just ends up annihilating them when they do not believe him?

I guess this this is not really a punishment, I agree with that. He just erases them. But still...

What about all the people who could have been, but never where? Are they equal to the ones who he blotted out of existence? If not, how do these two classes differ? Is there some sort of divine office of records: these never where, but these are no longer?

Surely they still are, compared to those potentials who God never even imagined?

Or am I way off here?

originally posted by: Logmafia
If we assume that there is a God, then I believe that he is our father and loves us as a parent loves a child.

A loving parent doesn't punish a child just to be mean, but instead uses discipline as a tool to help the child learn and grow. And, like any loving parent, God will always welcome back a child who is ready to behave and follow the "house rules."

In my mind, then, hell would come into play when people decide that they don't want the things that God wants for them, but instead want to do their own thing.

So, I don't believe that God thrusts people down to hell, but that there is a natural separation (barrier) between the souls of people who want to be good and become like God and the souls of those who don't.

Why do you believe a potential God would love us as a parent loves a child? I do not see the connection. Yes, traditional religion seems to build on this parent-child relationship, but it seems to me this is dreamed up by man himself. A real Creator-God could have a different attitude towards mankind, as far as we know.

You say that hell comes into play when people want different things than God, their own things. But do we punish a child when he wants different things than we do? Well, I guess we do. Up to a point. But, we are no Gods, are we?

You say there is a natural separation or barrier between God and the people who do not want to be good?

Is nature created by God? Is nature God?

originally posted by: smwoop

If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. (Albert Einstein)

I don't think that a God that promotes all-loving, would turn his self-imaged creation into an eternal slumber of torture. The bible says to love your enemy, so I assume God would do the same.

This is my way of thinking as well. I do believe Hell exists because it does have it's purpose, but I don't believe it exists to confine a soul to eternal suffering.

Rather a purification process for the souls who go there, a scraping off of impurities so the soul can advance to whatever next stage there is. I do believe God is pure and just, and I don't believe he would allow his creation to suffer eternally either. Just the concept of eternity is....frightening. This is how I have to rationalize it. If I have to rationalize it as a human being, how much more do we think God would?

originally posted by: Wookiep

originally posted by: smwoop

If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. (Albert Einstein)

I don't think that a God that promotes all-loving, would turn his self-imaged creation into an eternal slumber of torture. The bible says to love your enemy, so I assume God would do the same.

This is my way of thinking as well. I do believe Hell exists because it does have it's purpose, but I don't believe it exists to confine a soul to eternal suffering.

Rather a purification process for the souls who go there, a scraping off of impurities so the soul can advance to whatever next stage there is. I do believe God is pure and just, and I don't believe he would allow his creation to suffer eternally either. Just the concept of eternity is....frightening. This is how I have to rationalize it. If I have to rationalize it as a human being, how much more do we think God would?

How does suffering purify a soul?

What are these impurities? How are they scraped off? Some sort of spiritual scab?

I agree that eternity seems frightening. So, you think sinners would only suffer for a year or so? Then their sin is burned off? After a year of suffering, they are clean?

originally posted by: Subnatural

How does suffering purify a soul?

This is one of the biggest misunderstandings that religious people have.

How can suffering be good if God brings Peace, Love, and Joy (Galatians 5:22-23)?

People can suffer when following God because it hurts (for some) to go beyond their selfishness, to stop seeing others as "higher" or "lower" than themselves but as equal, to stop being mean and trying to harm others...

some people are addicted to their behaviors and it can be painful to break free from that for some. This is the "suffering" that comes from "Following Christ and bearing your Cross" and this is what is meant by "denying self". It is not denying your Spirit, but denying your Body (self-gratification) for The Spirit (peace with self and all - loving others as yourself).

Wow .... old thread dug up ....


A wise old nun told me that people go to hell because they want to. The people who end up in hell wouldn't want any part of heaven. They hate god. They hate and hate. If the gates of hell were thrown wide open and people from hell were allowed out, they'd be screaming for someone to close the door and leave them alone. the thought of heaven is torture for them. They want no part of it. So God lets them have exactly what they want ... no part of Him for eternity.

a reply to: arpgme

I agree with these things you say, but truly my question was about hell. In general, hell is thought to be eternal. The suffering is eternal. How can you improve in eternal suffering? There is no way.

I could accept the thought of suffering as going out of God. Out of his thinking, out of his ordained place for you. Out of his creation, through different sins. Going out of you own nature. But still, it is suffering? What is the difference?

And how can this continue for ever? The point of punishment is learning a lesson, right? Why punish someone for all eternity? This defeats the purpose of punishment. In fact, it defeats every purpose man can imagine, as man can not imagine eternity. So, how do you feel about eternal punishment in hell? How can we go out of ourselves for all eternity? Willingly? And still be punished?

This seems impossible to me.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
Wow .... old thread dug up ....


A wise old nun told me that people go to hell because they want to. The people who end up in hell wouldn't want any part of heaven. They hate god. They hate and hate. If the gates of hell were thrown wide open and people from hell were allowed out, they'd be screaming for someone to close the door and leave them alone. the thought of heaven is torture for them. They want no part of it. So God lets them have exactly what they want ... no part of Him for eternity.

I don't believe in not digging up old threads.

But I like this thought of people going to hell because they want to, because they cannot handle heaven. In their sin they hate God, and they can't stand to be close to him. It seems to bring balance to this whole system. But it is no explanation. It only seems.

You say they hate and hate. But no matter how much they hate, they still hate. And we all hate. How can you measure hate? Would God measure hate? Is this a property of God? To measure hate?

And if, as you say, the gates of hell were thrown open... why would they not run? Why would they scream to close the doors instead? Isn't the whole point of hell to be locked in punishment? To be locked in a place you do not want to be? What is the point of hell if you want to be in hell? This idea you sell to me is human, not divine. If you want to be in hell, then you are NOT in hell. Who would go against this?

Even if the ones in hell are evil, they are what they are, and God made them as much or as little as he made you and I.

And if they are desperate, then all the more reason to let them out and forgive them.

And if God is almighty, then why did He put them in hell?

If God is almighty then how can He judge his creations?

Can your father judge you and put you in Hell?

tl;dr:

What is the point of hell if people are not forced to go there?

Whatever state Hell is, it is the loss of God. Don't you want to go to Heaven.

a reply to: colbe

Most certainly.

originally posted by: Subnatural
a reply to: colbe

Most certainly.

A hug for you Subnatural.

originally posted by: Subnatural
I don't believe in not digging up old threads.

I enjoy digging up old threads. That wasn't a dig to you. Just an observation.

Would God measure hate?

'Gods ways are not our ways'. He measures hate. He judges what is hate and what is human frustration at not understanding something (which is different). You'll have to ask God how he measures hate ... when you see him in the next life. I can't answer.

And if, as you say, the gates of hell were thrown open... why would they not run?

Why would they run out? They are exactly where they want to be. Getting out would mean facing God. They hate God. So they can hide from His face in Hell. They want to be there.

And if they are desperate, then all the more reason to let them out and forgive them.

Who said they are 'desperate'? Who said they want forgiveness? They are rock solid in their hate. They aren't sorry for it.

And if God is almighty, then why did He put them in hell?

He didn't put them in hell. Their own hate put them there.

If God is almighty then how can He judge his creations?

How can He not? Why shouldn't He?

Can your father judge you and put you in Hell?

My human father? No. My Creator in Heaven? Yes.

What is the point of hell if people are not forced to go there?

God gave humans immortal souls. The humans in hell chose to abuse their immortal souls and hate God. Having immortal souls means they have to go somewhere ... and heaven isn't a place they want to be and it's not a place that God wants them to be. So it's like the damned souls themselves created Hell. A place to spend eternity separated from God.

originally posted by: colbe

originally posted by: Subnatural
a reply to: colbe

Most certainly.

A hug for you Subnatural.

A hug for you too, colbe.

a reply to: FlyersFan
I am grateful for this in my own small way, I will reply to this shortly, hopefully. This really made me think.

a reply to: FlyersFan
I am grateful for this in my own small way, I will reply to this shortly, hopefully. This really made me think.