Eye of Horus, 30,000 years and lots of paint.. The cave unlocked??

reply to post by Byrd


I do understand how different the Nile, or any body of water, can and does change over time.. Even the area that i feel could be Florida does look more like the bedrock below what we currently know as Florida.

I recall a programme once saying how much of a huge river the Nile was.. what we see in the cave painting could be the only parts that were there..and miraculously, still are...

Ok...water issue done and out of the way..

But what about the 3 dots? how comes they're in a very approximate position and layout, albeit back to front.

for all we know, these painters may have been seeing the future.. if so, they were very good at it..

Originally posted by Extralien
I recall a programme once saying how much of a huge river the Nile was.. what we see in the cave painting could be the only parts that were there..and miraculously, still are...

If they knew of the Nile (and it's doubtful their maps would look like modern maps) then they couldn't know what geological processes would shape it in the future. Heck, we can't predict what the Nile will look like in 20,000 years, and we have a good understanding of plate tectonics and what will happen to Africa. However, we have no idea what will happen to the climate (and a lot WILL happen to the climate.)

But what about the 3 dots? how comes they're in a very approximate position and layout, albeit back to front.

Any three roughly equidistant objects can be "aligned with the Giza pyramids", from the holes for my belt buckle on my belt to the buttons on my shirt, to the three dots for the letter "s" in Morse code, to the stars in the tail of the Big Dipper, to lunar craters, to dots on dominos, to the spots on a three-spot gourami, to dots on dice, the markings on the wings of the three spotted skipper butterfly, etc, etc.

I think that if (unlikely) they'd meant the Giza complex, they would have included all ten pyramids at Giza, and possibly the nearby pyramid of Djedefre as well. A more obvious sign (and much less subject to coincidence) would be if they'd accurately mapped all 218 (currently known) pyramids in Egypt. That's too large a number to be coincidental. I can't arrange my belt buckle notches to align with 218 pyramids in Egypt.

for all we know, these painters may have been seeing the future.. if so, they were very good at it..

Uhm... lines which can inaccurately be matched maps if you allow for a lot of mistakes, no drawings of the things they saw, dots instead of pyramids, no modern mammals or modern clothing designs, no machines, not even a drawing of a modern boat?

What would be the point of seeing things 20,000 years in the future?

I would agree that their shamans entered trances to try and see what was happening the next winter or next hunting season. I can see drawing crude maps with important features shown as symbols of places where animals could be found and trapped or where others lived. However, I can't see a reason to create a very badly scaled and warped palimpsest of a map of a land that would only show up long after they were dead.

You might find this recent article by a well-known paleontologist about "out of Africa" and the multiple types of humans involved to be an interesting read. it gives some idea about what we know of our complex human history.

BTW, the stuff in the article is pretty well known and accepted by scholars in the field. It's totally unknown to the average person, though (simply because they don't bother to sit down and read all about this kind of thing.)

Originally posted by masta12d

Originally posted by DENBY
Just a little aside about the Domestic Cat -

Cats have been intimately intertwined with Humans through all of recorded history. (And before)



Of all Domestic Animals the Cat is the sole Creature that Domesticated itself.



Although it never occurred to me that cats domesticated themselves and I don't disagree I simply don't know. However when you mention the Cat as the sole creature that domesticated itself, another animal comes to mind. The Lemur! I remember watching a documentary on how humans co-exist with the Lemur's in a small village. Not by choice mind you but due to limited available real estate.

Co-existing & having a mutually beneficial relationship are not the same.

Regarding the Human/Cat relationship I believe Cats got the short end of the stick.

To (sort of) quote Mark Twain - 'If Men could be cross-bred with Cats Man would benefit greatly. It would of course be detrimental to the Cat.'

S& F! I think the map making is a stretch, but some of the other correlations are completely fascinating. Excellent find OP

With regards to the "map"...

We know the water ways and coastlines have changed.. But we're forgetting and missing the point.

They painted these paintings with great care to hide and confuse everything.

What they did paint in to the "map" was landmarks.. When we think of Egypt and what symbolises it, we think of the Sphinx and the pyramids.

When we think of Rome we think of the coloseum.
London, the tower of London (these days we'vegot much more like the London eye)
New York was known for the Empire state building..
China...the great wall
Australia.. Sydney opera house...

Pirates.. oh those pesky pirates.. They give us the idea of how this map was designed.. It's not supposed to be extremely accurate.. it is to do with general location and landmarks to find the way..
see this picture shows more landmarks than it does the detail of the coastline..


Notice the design of the palm trees..
Now here in this cropped section from the "florida" side of the cave painting we see something the reasonably resembles a palm tree.. possibly on an island (doubtfull) but more than probably just to show there is land there..


The other landmark is the rough location of the lions eye in the "Africa" section.. It's marking Marakesh, or a long lost city close by. Then we have the thrre dots near the 'nile' possibly marking the location of the Pyramids and l;et's not forget the lions mouth on the west coast of 'Africa' representing the valley, whose mouth starts at Nouakchott.

Originally posted by Extralien
We know the water ways and coastlines have changed.. But we're forgetting and missing the point.
They painted these paintings with great care to hide and confuse everything.

Why? A map would have confused them.

There is reaso nable evidence (based on where the sunlight hits the walls) that they might have been painting astronomical images (and the 'spots" are actually fairly decent indications of where the stars are in a few of the paintings of bulls. The Pleiades, most notably, is recognizable.)

What they did paint in to the "map" was landmarks.. When we think of Egypt and what symbolises it, we think of the Sphinx and the pyramids.

The "landmarks" and geography weren't there at the time of the cave paintings. The people living in Egypt at that time hadn't developed the complex five-soul/afterworld/multiple gods/Osiris king religion that culminated in the pyramids. Nor did this group of people or their descendants travel back to Egypt and start a new civilization.

When we think of Rome we think of the coloseum.
London, the tower of London (these days we'vegot much more like the London eye)
New York was known for the Empire state building..
China...the great wall
Australia.. Sydney opera house...

Egypt doesn't symbolize anything. Many people find it significant for many different reasons (depending on which marketing idea has been pushed on them.)

New York's symbol was once the Brooklyn Bridge -- now it's "the Big Apple." London had many symbols before (and after) Big Ben was erected (including the Crystal Palace.) China's has had multiple symbols, including the five-toed dragon. Rome's official symbol was the imperial eagle (the Colosseum is just a sports stadium built by an emperor.) Egypt called itself the "Black Land" and not the "land of pyramids" -- even they didn't think of themselves in terms of the sphinx or pyramids. The sedge and bee was the symbol of rulers (not the pyramid or the sphinx) and they referred to pyramids much the same way we refer to modern cemeteries.

Pirates.. oh those pesky pirates.. They give us the idea of how this map was designed.. It's not supposed to be extremely accurate.. it is to do with general location and landmarks to find the way..
see this picture shows more landmarks than it does the detail of the coastline..

Uhm...that's not an actual pirate map. It's from a game.

Notice the design of the palm trees..
Now here in this cropped section from the "florida" side of the cave painting we see something the reasonably resembles a palm tree.. possibly on an island (doubtfull) but more than probably just to show there is land there..

No, seriously. Pirates didn't make their own maps-- if they used maps, they used the navigational charts that were published by their countries and were readily available to them.

The other landmark is the rough location of the lions eye in the "Africa" section.. It's marking Marakesh, or a long lost city close by. Then we have the thrre dots near the 'nile' possibly marking the location of the Pyramids and l;et's not forget the lions mouth on the west coast of 'Africa' representing the valley, whose mouth starts at Nouakchott.

They're European (Eurasian) cave lions. and they don't look like African lions. There were plenty of them in the area where the paintings were done, along with aurochs and elk that are painted on the walls.

I think in treating them as palimpsests, you've gone way off the mark -- the idea that they'd somehow make "hidden maps" of countries that they had no contact with and cultures and images that even the people of those places didn't find that important -- places that wouldn't exist for 10,000 years doesn't seem logical.

You may have better luck if you start looking at the dots on the animals as stars and then attempting to relate and orient them to the map of the sky at that time and the rays of light created by the sun (and the relative position of the sun, which would have illuminated (perhaps with a sun dagger) certain areas of the paintings.) I'd also recommend looking at the composition of the whole wall and grabbing as many new (restored) images as possible, because they've been retouching the paint where it was damaged by mold and fungus.

I must say, this was the most interesting documentary I have seen by far! I only wish I would have found it earlier!

Just noticed this (sorry)

Originally posted by Extralien

See the "hat" on the cats head.. it is two horns (the circle) encompassing a red spot with two 'feathers' coming out the top..
I think those feathers represent movement as we see depicted many times in the cave paintings, like a comets tail...

That's not a cat. It's the cow goddess, Hathor (as it says very clearly in the hieroglyphs that would be shown if you saw the whole painting. The feathers are her horns, and they are in all depictions of Hathor, whether she's full cow, cow-headed, or human form.

Sorry. As you know, Egypt and hieroglyphs are one of my fields of interest.

reply to post by Byrd


No worries Byrd...
Had a lot going on in my head whilst posting most of this so gonna be the odd mistake or two..

think the point was about the comparison of symbols relating to the sun.. How we find them in the cave and in many other locations.

Really old symbol..

The best one, though, has to be the hippo type creature with the long mouth and tongue.. for that to turn up in Egyptian art as well is rather fascinating..

I saw the documentary. A so-so presentation (IMO).

I am still contemplating the Painting/Age/Subjects/Style/Artistic Execution/Cultural Correlations/Cats/Hippos/Boys/Bears/Footprints... OY!

Curiouser & Curiouser.

Originally posted by Extralien
reply to post by Byrd

 

No worries Byrd...
Had a lot going on in my head whilst posting most of this so gonna be the odd mistake or two..

think the point was about the comparison of symbols relating to the sun.. How we find them in the cave and in many other locations.

I don't think it's that significant. People draw what they see. The sun looks like a glowing ball of fire, no matter where you are. Now, if they'd both used a scarab beetle to represent the sun and both of them were using this symbol during the same time period, you'd have a good case for contact.

In judging how closely related two things are, we look for unusual items that correlate. Two cultures drawing the sun as a ball is coincidence. Two cultures drawing the sun as a mammoth is NOT coincidence. Cultures that interact with each other or where one inherits from the other will have unique items (like the spearpoints or weaving patterns) AND will use material from each other. When Egypt and Spain began to interact (through the Roman culture) we found Roman items in both areas and grain from Egypt moving throughout the empire ... just as tin from Egypt went throughout the empire.

The best one, though, has to be the hippo type creature with the long mouth and tongue.. for that to turn up in Egyptian art as well is rather fascinating..

The reason that it's in Egyptian art is because those animals live there.

reply to post by Byrd


We may not find a scarab in the paintings.. there is a minimum of 20,000 years between what you know and learnt and the paintings.

I'm not trying to compare only two cultures. I think I've done at least four so far and am slowly progressing through as much as I can. The strongest links, so far, are with the Egyptians.

But of course that would be the strongest due to their proximity. We must not forget the difference in time, the slow and gradual change of thoughts and ideas ad ways to represent thing, but some things here seem to have stuck and stayed the same,.the hippo type creature is a prime example of that along with the symbol for the sun. And let's also remember how the cave paintings use that very same symbol for at least three stars.

No offence, but you seem to be thinking along a time line that relates to ancient Egypt (as we currently know it) where as the paintings relate to a time line tens of thousands of years before anything we've ever known.

From what I can see, these paintings are showing us something mind blowing. I'm determined to prove it too.

I feel so strongly that I'm right about what I can see. To me, it's as clear as day that there was a very highly advanced culture that more recent cultures have learnt from and carried on with certain traditions, beliefs and symbology.

Of course we may not find grain spread across the areas in question from those times as we've not been looking for them or they've long rotted and broken down or were simply never taken anywhere else.

30,000 years is a long time and to the best of our abilities these days we're still only scratching the surface.

We may not find similar items between the paintings and any other known culture due to the time difference. One thing is for sure.. anything related to Egypt in the paintings must have spread from an area that was well known, lived in and people explored from..
These paintings are in France after all.

I don't recall anything Egyptian travelling to France (maybe you do) unless it was brought there by the Romans, which again, is a different time line.

It has been shown that a papyrus boat can, and could have previously, cross the Atlantic.. but again, we're not looking back further into the past. We're all mostly going on what we currently believe we know.

In our history, we had arguments about how the world was flat..but it wasn't, never was and never will be. We also once believed the Earth was the centre of the universe and the planets, along with the sun, rotated around us..

how wrong we were..

Originally posted by Extralien
reply to post by Byrd

 

We may not find a scarab in the paintings.. there is a minimum of 20,000 years between what you know and learnt and the paintings.

Uhm... I also study rock art. Mainly rock art here in the Americas, but I've read up on rock art around the world, because its preservation is one of my interests.

I'm not trying to compare only two cultures. I think I've done at least four so far and am slowly progressing through as much as I can. The strongest links, so far, are with the Egyptians.

But of course that would be the strongest due to their proximity.

They weren't physically close. There's well over 3,000 miles distance between the two.

No offence, but you seem to be thinking along a time line that relates to ancient Egypt (as we currently know it) where as the paintings relate to a time line tens of thousands of years before anything we've ever known.

Actually, what I'm relating is the art (not the things that are formed by looking at sections of paintings) with other art in the area and of the same age (Altimira caves, Chauvet, Lascaux, Pech Merle, etc (partial list can be found here) with the paleolithic art of Egypt (Cave of the Swimmers, Qurta, El Hosh, etc (along with predynastic art.)

Both preferred styles and subject matter show that there's no real interaction.

I feel so strongly that I'm right about what I can see. To me, it's as clear as day that there was a very highly advanced culture that more recent cultures have learnt from and carried on with certain traditions, beliefs and symbology.

You would have to link it to all the examples I cited above, show the same images and same use of maps in art NOT found in that one cave. And it would have to be the SAME image, done the SAME way. (in other words, two bisons in the same position that form the "secret image." in multiple sites.)

Seeing one image in the rock that's not explicitly drawn may be "paraidolia" -- the same sensemaking process we use when we see faces in clouds or trees or rocks. Proof is finding the same thing in multiple places and done in the very same manner.

Of course we may not find grain spread across the areas in question from those times as we've not been looking for them or they've long rotted and broken down or were simply never taken anywhere else.

That belief isn't supported. Very ancient trade routes can be documented (including the trading of things like shells) and are documented.

[quote[I don't recall anything Egyptian travelling to France (maybe you do) unless it was brought there by the Romans, which again, is a different time line.
Exactly my point. At the time of the paintings, people didn't have the roads and structures (towns, wayside inns, food resources) to travel thousands of miles away from home and then back again. Nomadic people do move around quite a bit, but nomads on foot cover a fairly small range with known resources... not thousands of miles.

You can only prove your point if you find these same things using the same symbols in other paintings... and then they'd be in absolutely every cave in and around France.

Originally posted by Byrd

what I'm relating is the art (not the things that are formed by looking at sections of paintings) with other art in the area and of the same age (Altimira caves, Chauvet, Lascaux, Pech Merle, etc

iunderstand what you're trying to say here, but unfortunately you cannot compare the chauvet cave paintings with the others due to the gap in years between them

The art of the other caves is very similar and just as colourful, but the chauvet has a signature all of its own.

There is at least a 2000 year gap between the others and chauvet. The oldest being estimated at around 18,500 (Altamira) whereas chauvet dates up to 32,000 years (cave collapse was around 20,000 years ago)

This does cause a problem. Either there are lots more caves undiscovered with the progression of this art yet to be seen or the ideas of cave painting were passed down from one generation to the next. That and the possibility that cave art was forgotten until someone eventually decided it was a good idea again.

With the chauvet we are seeing a method of painting that surpasses the others. There are objects and pictures hidden whithin the art. The other sets do not seem to have this similarity, so this could prove my idea that the chauvet was painted in a way that only a certain intelligence level would reveal the entire picture.. anyone else would simply see animals (which they may have seen and copied the idea of painting the animals.)

This may be why we do not see a continuation of such extraordinary art work.

I am looking at the other cave paintings and also further afield but nothing has yet stood out and led me on a merry chase like the chauvet has. After all, several images from chauvet have taken me to a crater which has a striking resemblance to the eye of horus/ra, a creature that turns up in Egyptian star charts and, oddly enough, is almost identical in the cave. Plus a load of other stuff previously presented.

What purpose did the Cave itself serve? Was it a Temple a Meeting Room a Nursery where Children were set loose with charcoal & such to artistically express themselves in much the same way today's Kids fingerpaint?

One is not allowed to walk about so as to not disturb the floor. Bear-Tracks & the Foot-Prints of an 8yo Boy are found. Why an 8yo Boy. Was He perceived as Divine? Was He a Scribe in Training? Was He Revered/Feared? Was He a Medium? Was He an Offering/Sacrifice?

Did the entryway collapse or was it collapsed?

Much to consider beyond the Art itself.

I am trying to go over the other caves..

Using the pictures online is not good enough. i need the flowing movement of a video so I can cpature a wider view of wht is on the walls.

I think I may have found something in one of the pictures from Lascaux, but again..neeed a documentary to go over as part of the image in the photo is missing and I cannot determine an exact image.

That said, I'll post whatI think may be a profile of a human face.
If it is, then it does suggest that the artists of Lascaux were using similar techniques with which to hide things..

A lot of Lascaux paintinga are very faint, seem to lack accuracy and do not (yet) seem to have the same instant recognition that Ihad with Chauvet...

Like I said, this is a bit 'off'... it's right at the edge of a photo from online so I'm only posting to show it as a possibility rather than stating what it is. Even for art, it's a bit of a crude profile..


Time will tell..

reply to post by Extralien


They were capable of painting images of humans... there's no need to hide them by palimpsests. They were capable of painting all the animals that they saw (no need for palimpsests.)

Again, you would have to find the SAME image presented in the SAME way in other caves to make a case for "this is something other than seeing shapes in clouds."

"Cave Of Forgotten Dreams"

full length



a very expressive thread EA
i will comment when ive watched the film

reply to post by GezinhoKiko


Thank you for adding the documentary.

I am still working on this.. It's not something I've forgotten or given up on so easily.

As it currently stands, from my search of other documentaries and pictures, there is a very small amount of similarities with other cave paintings. Some of the other caves are showing signs of artistic progression, moving away from paint onto actual rock carving and then a combination of the two... which we know is a trademark of most Egyptian decoration.

The Chauvet caves have their own unique signature. The paintings and presentation are different from most others that I can see at the moment. There are overlaid images in the other caves, but none of them 'stack' animals like we see in Chauvet, but we see the stacking in Egyptian art..

It may be possible that other cave paintings are 'copies' of artisitic talent but lack the knowledge/historical content that Chauvet holds.

Yesterday, whilst doing some more searching,I came across a documentary that I had no idea existed..
And would you believe it, someones posted it on ATS before too.. almost two years ago..

The documentary is called "The Pyramid Code"..

The thread is here
www.abovetopsecret.com...

As I was watching it, I felt compelled to answer many of the questions by using the art in the Chauvet caves..
Then I was kinda stunned to hear them mention 21/12/12 and them wondering what will haqppe...will it be an awakening of some sorts?..

well it was an awakening for me as I was sat here on the 21/12 pouring over the paintings in the cave.. and seeing things that made me take a journey and to eventually start this thread..

The clincher for me was when i saw one particular image from the Dogon tribe appear.. It has helped me to link the Chauvet caves to Lascaux and on to the Dogon... I will be posting those images later on today.
Other priorities are in the way at the moment.

Off to link this thread to the Pyramid code thread..