Epic Lies: Revisiting The Great Flood

Have you ever wondered, "How did Noah manage to build that ark?" Did he do it all by himself, with a few family members helping?

Did you know that there is a "Great Flood" myth that's older than the Bible's? It's called the Epic of Gilgamesh.



The entire epic here: www.youtube.com...

In this story, Utnapishtim, the Sumerian counterpart to Noah, heard God's voice echo in the reeds, warning him about the impending flood. The God, Ea, told him to build a ship. When Utnapishtim asked him what he should tell his kingdom, he was the king of Shurippak, Ea told him to say this:

But what shall I answer the city, the people and elders?’
Ea opened his mouth to speak,
Saying to me, his servant:
‘Thou shalt then thus speak unto them:
I have learned that Enlil is hostile to me,
So that I cannot reside in your city,
Nor set my foot in Enlil’s territory.
To the Deep I will therefore go down,
To swell with my lord Ea.

So, Upnapishtim tricked his town members into helping him build the ark by saying that the God Enlil hated him and it would behoove the town to help him build a boat so that he could move away from them, and down the Euphrates, thus sparing them from God's wrath.

Well, it wasn't really a lie, because Enlil hated all men, but he was planning to kill all of them, not just Utnapishtim.

But the following is a terrible betrayal and a coercive lie!

But upon you he will shower down abundance,
The choicest birds, the rarest fishes.
The land shall have its fill of harvest riches.
He who at dusk orders the husk-greens,Will shower down upon you a rain of wheat (...to deceive the residents of Shurrupak as to the real intent of the rain).’

www.pseudepigrapha.com...

So, Utnapishtim lied to his people and told them that it would be good for them if they helped him build the ship that he needed to survive the upcoming flood and impending doom, and lied to them, promising it would "rain down" blessing and richness upon them, for helping to rid the land of him, Utnapishtim.

So the people gathered the needed supplies and trade smiths and helped build the ship for him!

The little ones carried bitumen, While the grown ones brought all else that was needful.
On the fifth day I laid her framework.

So what did the people get for their labor, donations, faith and goodwill toward Utnapishtim?

A black cloud rose up from the horizon. Inside it Adad (god of storm and rain) thunders, While Shallat and Hanish (Heralds of Adad) go in front, Moving as heralds over hill and plain. Erragal (Nergal, the god of the netherworld) tears out the posts (out of the dam); Forth comes Ninurta and causes the dikes to follow.

The Anunnaki lift up the torches, Setting the land ablaze with their glare. Consternation over Adad reaches to the heavens, Turning to blackness all that had been light. The wide land was shattered like a pot! For one day the south-storm blew, Gathering speed as it blew, submerging the mountains, Overtaking the people like a battle.

No one can see his fellow, Nor can the people be recognized from heaven.

Are we to supposed that this is how the Biblical Noah built his ark? Are these two men one in same? Or, were there two families that survived the flood?

Should Utnapishtim have warned his kingdom of the impending doom? They could have been building ships for themselves as well as for Utnapishtim and the animals.

So, on this day, December 20th, 2012, the eve of doomsday, I ask you, "What was the ethical thing to do?" Did the ends justify the means? What say you ATS?

reply to post by windword


Awesome thread! (didn't want to break the running joke on my thread)

I'm glad you did this!

reply to post by windword


I didn't know if you would proceed with the idea/request, but I am glad you did. Thank you, well done.

reply to post by Turkenstein


Thanks for the Idea!

It's a perfect theme for the "end of the world", again, eve.

reply to post by windword

S&F Windword.

If I'm remembering the story correctly, if EA had tried to save any more souls than the few he chose, on any more than one ship, Enlil would have noticed, and killed the rest too. Which would have been the end of humanity.

So your question is indeed key. Should the king have betrayed Ea, and told everyone, thus most likely guaranteeing the end of humanity? Or did he do well by obeying Ea, and thus preserving a tiny remnant of humanity?

Interesting conundrum.

reply to post by Klassified

So your question is indeed key. Should the king have betrayed Ea, and told everyone, thus most likely guaranteeing the end of humanity? Or did he do well by obeying Ea, and thus preserving a tiny remnant of humanity?

Yes, I thought of that too. I wonder why Enlil didn't notice the ship that WAS being built, and if he would have noticed one or two more.

Maybe, Utnapishtim could have told his people that he wanted to build a navy, to protect his kingdom from enemies. That way he could have used those ships to save more people, without spilling the beans, so to speak.

reply to post by windword

Hi Winward--

It is clear from a close reading of all the mangled copies of the supposedly ancient Torah of the Jews is a hotchpotch of different sources and writing styles, grouped today by textual scholars into J E P D and Redactors A, B ,C.

This can be seen in the Noah Flood Myth of Bereshth (aka 'genesis') chapters 7 to 9 where an Hezekielite priestly writer appears in CAPITAL LETTERS - see below - whose Hebrew ritual like diction (full of 'sacred numbers / dates') is alligned with the 'Babylonian' Hebrew writer of the Book of Hezekiel, c. 550 BCE) had his own version of the Myth (based on the Gilgamesh epic from an early Sumerian version) whose letter is P ('priestly') and ANOTHER writer (J) whose accent is a southern Hebronite Hebrew style in [small letters] see below

The J writer uses YHWH (or JHWH) for the clan god and the P writer uses ELOHIM in the Torah to refer to the clan god of Israel (until Exod chapter 3 when he uses the term YHWH following the burning bush disclosure !)

But you can clearly see from the extract below in CAPS (P writer ) & smalls (J writer) that these were originally 2 myths that were later combined into a single story (probably by Ezra and his 5 Scribes c. 440 BCE)

(J) And YHWH said unto Noah, Come you and all your house into the Ark;

(P) FOR I HAVE SEEN THAT YOU ALONE ARE RIGHTEOUS IN THIS GENERATION.

(J) Of every ritually clean beast you will take to yourself in groups of sevens - the male & female: & of beasts that are not ritually clean you shall take them in pairs by twos, male & female - also of ritually clean birds also of the air by groups of sevens, male and female; to keep their seed alive upon the face of the land - for in seven days, & I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living thing that I have formed will I destroy from the face[s] of the ground - so Noah did according unto all that YHWH commanded him.

(P) NOW WHEN THE FLOOD BEGAN TO INUNDATE THE EARTH NOACH WAS 600 YEARS OLD – & WHEN NOACH WENT INTO THE ARK HE AND HIS SONS AND HIS WIFE & HIS SONS’ WIVES WITH HIM ON ACCOUNT OF THE FLOOD WATERS AND WITH THEM HE TOOK 2 AND 2 OF EVERY KIND MALE & FEMALE MIXED RITUALLY CLEAN ANIMALS & RITUALLY UNCLEAN ANIMALS & BIRDS AND ALL THAT CREEP UPON THE EARTH JUST AS ELOHIM HAD TOLD HIM TO DO.

(J) And after 7 days the Flood began to inundate the ground.

(P) AND IN THE 600th YEAR of NOACH’S LIFE IN THE 2nd MONTH & ON THE 17th DAY OF THE MONTH – EVEN THE SAME DAY ALL THE FOUNTAINS OF THE GREAT TEHOMAH BROKE OPEN AND THE WINDOWS OF HEAVEN BEGAN TO OPEN.

(J) And the rains lasted upon the earth 40 days and 40 nights.

(P) AND ON THE SAME DAY NOACH AND SHEM AND HAM AND JAPETH SONS OF NOACH AND HIS WIFE & HIS SONS’ WIVES ALL ENTERED INTO THE ARK - TWO & TWO OF ALL FLESH THAT HAS LIFE IN THEM CAME TO NOACH TO ENTER THE ARK, MALE & FEMALE OF ALL FLESH, JUST AS ELOHIM HAD TOLD HIM TO DO - EVERY BEAST ACCORDING TO HIS OWN SPECIES AND CATTLE ACCORDING TO HIS OWN SPECIES & CREEPING THINGS THAT CREEP UPON THE GROUND ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN SPECIES & EVERY BIRD ACCORDING TO HIS OWN SPECIES & EVERY FOWL OF EVERY SPECIES.

(J) But YHWH shut them in.

THEN THE FLOODWATERS CAME & FLOODED THE EARTH.

And for a period of 40 days & 40 nights the waters began to swell and raise the Ark so that it lifted off the ground when the waters began to increase upon the land so that all the high hills under all of Heaven were obliterated.

AND THE ARK BEGAN TO SAIL UPON THE FACE[S] OF THE WATERS - FIFTEEN CUBITS UPWARDS DID THE WATERS PREVAIL AND THE MOUNTAINS WERE COVERED SO THAT ALL FLESH THAT USED TO MOVE UPON THE LAND DIED – INCLUDING FOWL, CATTLE, BEAST & CREEPING THINGS THAT CREEP ON THE EARTH.

And every human upon the earth in whose nostrils contained The Breath of Life died.

AND EVERY LIVING SUBSTANCE WAS DESTROYED WHICH WAS UPON THE FACE OF THE GROUND BOTH MAN AND CATTLE AND CREEPING THINGS AND THE FOWLS OF HEAVEN WERE ALL DESTROYED FROM THE EARTH SO THAT ONLY NOACH REMAINED ALIVE IN THE ARK AND THOSE THAT WERE WITH HIM.AND THE WATERS HAD PREVAILED UPON THRE GROUND 150 DAYS WHEN ELOHIM REMEMBERED NOACH AND ALL THE LIVING THINGS AND CATTLE THAT WERE IN THE ARK WITH HIM: THEN ELOHIM MADE A WIND TO PASS OVER THE EARTH AND THE FLOODWATERS BEGAN TO RECEDE WHEN THE FOUNTAINS OF THE TEHOMAH WERE STOPPED UP.

Then the Windows of Heaven were restrained so that the waters were able to begin the process of draining off the land .

AND THE WATERS BEGAN TO ABATE AT THE END OF THE 150 DAYS SO THAT THE ARK RESTED IN THE 7th MONTH ON THE 17th DAY of the MONTH UPON THE MOUNTAINS OF AR’ARAT. AND THE WATERS ABATED STEADILLY UNTIL THE 10th MONTH AND ON THE 1st DAY OF THE 10th MONTH THE TOPS OF THE MOUNTAINS FIRST ABLE TO BE SEEN.

And it happened that after 40 days, Noah opened the Window of the Ark which he had constructed...

Clear ?

reply to post by Sigismundus


Not really.....

So, you're saying that the flood story of the Bible that we know today was written by 2 different people, J and P around 550 BCE. P based his writings on a Babylonian version of the Gilgamesh epic. Or are there 2 different Hebrew stories?

Writer J used the term Elohim to describe the GOD deity while writer P generally used YHWH, up until chapter 3 of Exodus. So the God of Noah, to this author was Elohim. Is that right?

Do you believe that Utnapishtim is the Noah of the Bible or that they are two different people from the same event?

reply to post by windword


The Sumerians invented writing which probably explains why Gilgameshs' record of the flood pre-dates the bible.

When reading the accounts of Genesis, its also very important to remember that writing was invented much after the arrival of man. (Historians estimate the date at around 3,200 BC) So the events of Genesis were preserved as oral traditions for thousands of years before being written down and a lot of it would have been forgotten over time.

So all we have are blurry accounts of a faded memory of the distant past. A lot of the details have been lost in time.

A lot of cultures have flood legends with pretty much the same premise. So we can deduct that a massive flood indeed took place in the old world... historical records of which have been washed out.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


It's interesting that this account is told in the first person.

Utnapishtim was given eternal life from the gods after surviving the flood. He is speaking to Gilgamesh who has journeyed to see Utnapishtim to ask him for eternal life.

So the tale is from the horses mouth!

Utnapishtim tells him that he can't handle eternal life, he still needs to sleep! He makes a deal with Gilgamesh that if he can go 7 days without sleep, then he will grant him eternal life. Exhausted from his journey, Gilgamesh falls asleep for days, and never gets his wish.

reply to post by windword

Hi Windward--

Actually you have it backwards : according to the Graf-Wellhausen Source Critical Method for the Pentateuch, the J writer (the writer with the southern Judaen Hebronite accent) used YHWH to refer to the clan god of Yisro'el and the P writer (with the Babylonian paleoHebrew accent used by the writer of the Book of the prophet Hezekiel c. 550 BCE) used the word ELOHIM as a generic name for the clan god of Yisro'el (at least until Exod chapter 3 when the name YHWH is revealed - but his Hezekielite 'bablylonian' paleoHebrrew style otherwise is easily identifiable after Exod chapter 3, the burning bush myth).

In terms of source material for the stolen (or more politely, 'borrowed') post-exilic narrative in Genesis c. 500 BCE reflected in Gen. chapters 7-9, the Semito-Babylonian Myth of Gilgamesh (c. 1900 BCE) that contains a flood narrative around a Noach like figure called Utnapishtim is itself derived from an earlier non-Semitic source (The Sumerian Flood Myth of Atrahasis c. 2900 BCE).

The word ELOHIM is tranlsated into modern English (following the King James Version of 1611) as 'God'' (literally it menas 'clan god' = or more exactly, 'clan-gods', it is plural in form, but probably a plural of majesty or plural of changeability, (like phanim 'faces') governing a singular verb (e.g. ELOHIM bara eth-haAretz ' the clan-gods (he) created the land')

The word YHWH is translated into modern English (following the KJV) as 'The LORD' (literally it is untranslatable -but seems somehow cognate with the Hebrew 'Y H Y' (to be, to exist, to live) - in Exodus chapter 3 the name is expressed first as "Eyehi Asher Eyehi" which is also untranslatable ('I am who I am' could mean : mind your own business ('what is your name?' = I am who I am ! in other words, I'm not telling you my name) or if the Assyro Babylonian god ASHUR is being referred to here it could mean 'I am ASHUR I am' (after all the clan god of the Assyrians ASHUR had 4 faces just like YHWH - the face of a man, the face of an ox, the face of an eagle and the face of a lion !!! and that was 1,000 years before the mad prophet Hezekiel's time and his weird circles within wheels !)

As for the historicity of these stories, I'm not sure how literally you take the myths of the Jews or the myths of other ancient mesopotamian and asiatic peoples for that matter -

The Greeks have their Deucalion flood myth and in Irish mythology the Flood is sent by the gods to punish mankind but the goddess Cassair builds an Ark and survives to bring with her 150 mothers of the world to repopulate the planet etc. etc. and so it goes on - the Hebrew myth is just THEIR retelling of an ancient narrative where their single clan god does all the flooding for his own cultic reasons ('and Noach was found to be the only righteous one....') whereas in most of the other earlier myths, the gods do the dirty work and some of the gods are not in total agreement as to sending the flood in the first place...as with the Atrahasis myth.

But you can tell from joining together the parts of the story in my earlier post in CAPITAL LETTERS and separating them off from those differently authored parts of the current story [the part in small letters] that there are a number of near duplicate doublets/repetitions of the same phrase or idea that kind of give the game away (try it and see for yourself).

If you want a good overview for the layman check out WHO WROTE THE BIBLE by Elliott Friedman, a student of the great Frank Cross of Harvard which is available new/used and in paperback

www.amazon.com...

It's a bit of a simplification of the more complicated facts of the case for scholars - but lay people not familiar with the text from a consonantal paleoHebrew standpoint find it a good place to start studying these kinds of literary hotchpotches (such as the Torah of the Jews) in detail - that is, by a process known as CLOSE READING where every word and phrase in a story is examined for original language grammar, vocabulary, syntax, style of utterance, sentence length, Weltanschauung (i.e. world-view), theology, eschatology, historicity, poetic forms etc. especially as it compares with older and more sophisticated pagan (i.e. non Jewish) sources which were borrowed/adapted by Jewish scribes in the telling of their own racial, political & theological myths etc.

I suppose we don't really care if this story has an historical underpinning (local floods are most commonplace in ancient times, even widespread ones) - when examined carefully, the story is part of a longer post exilic (i.e. post 540 BCE) heavilly edited narrative that revolves around a 'new creation' (read Gen chapter 1, then the flood narrative to see the re-creation theme) again from the 'waters of chaos' (Heb. tehom, aka the Deep).

reply to post by Sigismundus


Thank you for that explanation. Sounds like you know quite a bit about flood mythology.

I'm not attached to any one story or explanation. I don't take the Biblical narrative or the Epic of Gilgamesh literally. But I am fascinated with antediluvian mythology. Something happened, either at the hand of a god(s) or nature (melting glaciers), to erase what may have been an advanced society that grew in the midst of prehistoric man.

Perhaps there was a group of people, similar to us, who had advanced technically and scientifically, and were therefore known as mythical giants or the mighty men of old. Like Krishna and his flying Vimana, it's a mystery. Maybe the gods were aliens visitors or our progenitors. Or, maybe there's no truth to these myths at all. I try to keep an open yet critical mindset.

The Biblical explanation for the flood, being that God needed to rid the earth of nephilim, didn't seem to work, as they continue to pop up through out the Old Testament, and Gilgamesh, of course, was said to have been 3/4 god.

reply to post by windword

Are we to supposed that this is how the Biblical Noah built his ark? Are these two men one in same? Or, were there two families that survived the flood?

there are some big issues with the Epic of Gilamesh account:
- the dimensions of the boat being 200x200x200 feet (unseaworthy cube)
- Building time to make boat 100 years for Noah (Noah gave 100yrs of warning)versus 7 days for Gilgamesh
- Material the boat roof was made out of, wood for Noah versus slate for Gilgamesh (which would make the boat top heavy and further unseaworthy)

Supposedly, from the Gilgamesh account, no animals were on the unseaworthy top heavy cube 'ship' but just DNA. Questions have to be asked about these 'gods' described as acting like 'whipped dogs' when the water came down:

From your video posted we can see that the Gilgamesh tale is Babylonian in origin, coming out of the empire created by Nimrod (Nimrod was born about 4 generations from Noah).

We have the Babylonia account written before the Biblical account. We see from the Babylonian account that it was obviously a made up story because:
- they didn't have electricity and freezers on this cube ship in order to preserve the DNA from destruction
- Seeing that all the animals died in the universal flood, no wombs of females animals could be used to produce the new lot of animals from combining the DNA into an implantable zygote, what kind of fancy science lab did they bring with them using techniques that are not even possible to us now

----
What do we know though???
- We know that at one stage the whole world was underwater, caused an extinction level event and was the main cause of the geological features around us

Evidenced here:
101 - The Earth in Time and Space
Author: Walter J. Veith
Description: In this video, the big bang theory of origins and its plausibility are discussed. The catastrophic origin of the geological column is presented in full multimedia format. Evidence for rapid water deposition of the layers of the geological column, canyon formation, erosional features, and paraconformites (missing time zones) are discussed together with their age implications. The standard geological view is contrasted with the Biblical view, enabling the viewer to make a choice between the two models.


102 - A Universal Flood
Author: Walter J. Veith
Description: Science today denies a universal flood, as it would destroy the continuity of the fossil record in the geological column. In this video, evidence for precisely such a universal phenomenon is presented with fascinating video material from modern day catastrophes on a smaller scale. The origin of the petrified forests and their flood implications are also discussed.


Geological Evidences of the Genesis Flood
- Marine Fossils High Above Sea Level
- Rapid Burial of Plants and Animals
- Transcontinential Rock Layers
- No Erosion Between Strata Layers
---------------------
Now if there has to be a flood (based on the geological evidence) and there are close to 300 flood accounts across various cultures, then what we need to do is try and deduce which one is right!

flood accounts


A comparative study of flood accounts (Genesis vs Gilagmesh)

-----
Through research of the flood accounts we see patterns developing that it was commonly represented that only one family survived and often depicted as being 8 people. We see commonality of themes with the other accounts and the Genesis account.

The common origin of the flood comes from Noah. Gilgamesh was written down before Noah as the Noah account was initially passed down by the Oral Tradition.

reply to post by windword


Actually the epic of Gilgamesh is about the same age as Noah, in terms of written history.

Because we do not know who came first orally, but that we do find evidence for the name YHWH as old as the Babylonian myths, along with stories involving Lotan (the currently called Leviathan), it's safe to say that the two stories have a pretty deep back story going back at least a few centuries in order for such stories to fully merge between cultures so separated across desert and sea.


So in conclusion, it's impossible to find out who came first. Because they both existed at the advent of written history for both peoples.

reply to post by windword

The Biblical explanation for the flood, being that God needed to rid the earth of nephilim

The land hand become wicked, and 100 years of warnings to the people were given. It wasn't just to rid the earth of nephilim, it was a Judgment event to restart the Earth back over again. The event level physical remains so that people can know of God's power and that he is serious when He says there will be a future Judgment.

The Bible makes reference to stories from long before it was written, sort of a history book. Names back those days, and even now. changed to another name when crossing cultures. My family name was different in different areas of the world. You moved and your name was changed to one meaning the same thing.

I think the people building the ark were the same people that built the other ark. I think it is basicly the same story, a story that was real. I doubt if the whole earth was flooded, you have to remember they did not have all the knowledge we have, they had a limited perception. Maybe that bulge of water at the equator let loose and made a great flood, maybe there were great earthquakes causing a release of underground water reserves and continents sank. I guess we may never know. I think Noah, or whatever his name really was, thought that the earth was covered with water though.

I read quite a few of the Flood stories. What you are saying may be true, it's hard to say for sure. Some great event did happen long ago and all religions took it as their own. You have to remember that everyone kind of came from the same group of people a long time ago. There is no way of knowing how old this story really is.

reply to post by rickymouse


It really isn't the same. There's an ark and that's about it. Reasons for it change radically. You go to Hawaii and you have Nu' following the god Cain and surviving a great flood in an ark.

It's a scrambled story no matter where you go. But for me, if some guy in Hawaii is using roughly the same names, it gives a great deal more backing for the Bible than the Babylonians.

For me at least.

reply to post by Gorman91


The Hopi's story is different. I think they were in America at the time but the story could have been dragged over from Europe by different survivors of the same event. It could be a different event also. Will we ever know?

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by rickymouse

 

It really isn't the same. There's an ark and that's about it. Reasons for it change radically. You go to Hawaii and you have Nu' following the god Cain and surviving a great flood in an ark.

It's a scrambled story no matter where you go. But for me, if some guy in Hawaii is using roughly the same names, it gives a great deal more backing for the Bible than the Babylonians.

For me at least.

The Hawaiian god's name is similar but it isn't pronounced the same, It's Kane, pronounced "kahnay"

Kane Hawaiian god of the forests and trees. Kane was the leading god of the great gods named by the Hawaiians. He represented the god of procreation and was worshipped as ancestor of chiefs and commoners. Kane is the creator and gives life associated with dawn, sun and sky.

According to the possible late edition of the Kumuhonua legend, he formed the three worlds: the upper heaven of the gods, the lower heaven above the earth, and the earth itself as a garden for mankind; the latter he furnished with sea creatures, plants, and animals, and fashioned man and woman to inhabit it. No human sacrifice or laborious ritual was needed in the worship of Kane.

reply to post by windword


sounds similar enough to me to grant a link. That's like Lotan and Leviathan with the Hebrew livyathan, and the Asian Lung, and the vedic Nagan.

All regarding the same old story, most of which are a 7 headed serpent.

Sorry dude. You're not going to convince me in a who came first story when there's people completely and totally cut off from all written history of the origin still telling very similar tales.

This stuff is old. Hundreds to thousands of years older than Babylon. Then you go over to Gobekli Tepe and you see the same constellations we still use today. Virgo and Leo/ The Virgin and the Lion of Judah/ so and and so forth.

These stories are as old as art itself. The fact that they are preserved, even so in books like Enoch, separated by 1700 years, yet still seen to be quoting each other once found, give some series credentials to the Scriptures for me.