A Call For Some Sanity - RE: Newtown

I wanted to create a thread to discuss the recent debates regarding the Newtown shooting, and the current "conspiracies" relating to it. But I want to do this with something additional.

Many have probably seen the threads detailing the suspicions that several members of ATS have, and any suggestion of evidence or proof is ignored. This is occurring in two ways, with those accepting of the conspiracy offering no evidence to support their claims, and also ignoring any evidence which dispels their claims.

I and others have responded with several opinions, offering explanations for the presence of a place called Sandy Hook in a scene in the Batman story, with evidence, research and factual information - which is then ignored.

But, I and others have also responded in some harsh ways.

While I do not believe that stating someone is delusional or potentially has mental health issues is an insult - especially not when the evidence is there to suggest it - I do accept that using the term "bat sh*t crazy" is not the best way to get the point across. So I apologize for that instance (this is an emotive subject, and I am Human).

However, it is a fact that these people believe that the movies are sending them messages, that a secret organization is releasing clues through Hollywood and music to "warn" people or "trigger" events. Clearly, when there is no evidence for such a claim, and plenty of evidence to explain and offer an innocent alternative, believing the delusion is indeed an indication of mental instability.

This is not an insult any more than calling the sky blue is an insult. It's a perception based on all available evidence. And all available evidence seems to suggest to me and others that there are numerous people here who should be seeking some form of counselling.

That is the purpose of this thread. I would like to request that ATS begin offering a link somewhere on the forums to an on-line counselling service, or provide a page offering sound advice in how to deal with these issues.

There is a growing sense amongst many on ATS that mental instability is increasing here, and this should concern all of us. While we debate on the effectiveness of mental health services in the USA, we cannot ignore it here on ATS either. This is a microcosm of several nations, these people exist in our communities, and they should be able to access this information when it is clear to many that it would benefit them.

We cannot, in all conscience, see people denying that any child died in Sandy Hook Elementary School, calling grieving parents "actors" and suggesting the movies are sending them messages and NOT respond with some sane and reasoned reply, service or advice.

I would like ATS to take a lead in this. Sometimes a conspiracy theory goes too far, and warnings should be heeded. ATS used to have boundaries, it used to be that the majority would REQUIRE some evidence - evidence that could not be immediately explained away - for there to be a basis of a theory. Conspiracy theories need to have some form of foundation for there to be a story, but in recent years this standard has all but vanished, to be replaced by wild speculation on everything from lizard people to "imagined children" being slaughtered.

This is no longer acceptable to me, or to many others. Allowing this to continue unchecked is not only doing harm to the perception others have of ATS, it is doing harm to the general discourse in discussions, and it is undoubtedly doing harm to the mental state of numerous posters here.

I fully expect people to now claim that I am a government shill, trying to stop "exposing of the truth". The fact of the matter is that I am a long-standing member of ATS who is witnessing massive ignorance with every visit. I am seeing people creating fantasy out of reality, based in nothing but delusion, and I am seeing a genuine concern amongst many of us that the mental health of several posters here is not good, not good at all.

Seeing posters suggesting that grieving parents are "actors" and that these children didn't even exist is sickening to me.

This is a make or break moment for me, and I know that I am not alone. ATS has gone downhill fast, with clear delusions being supported, with random claims being allowed to go through, with people starting threads based on nothing more than a rant by Alex Jones.

Something needs to change here, or valued members who offer genuine debate on genuine conspiracies will be leaving, allowing ATS to become even more irrational with each passing day.

So here is the question I would like to ask other members - how does ATS move forward with this? Should ATS be offering pages of advice for mental health? Should new rules be implemented requiring some form of evidence for a conspiracy (perhaps reviewing the first ten responses and their average acceptance/refusal of a story would be a good method of moderating relevance)? How do we get ATS back to being a genuine conspiracy forum debating real factual evidence of conspiracies, instead of simply allowing anyone to make any claim about anyone or anything, without any basis in reality?

Your thoughts, if you would be so kind.

I think you've made some great points. My only concern....who will supply the mental health help? Someone like me, with background in psychology but no degree (and completely unqualified might I add)? Or should ATS pay for a clinical psychologist, bc I doubt that's going to happen, either.

Maybe just a thread where we can calmly vent our feelings? I don't know.

But I agree. Some of the latest conspiracies tied to the shooting are...ludicrous.

Sometimes a tragedy is simply a tragedy.

Nice sentiments, and I applaud you for your honesty.

I read that entire thread in question with intense interest and like many other people, my initial thought was WOW!! It is certainly a very 'out there' theory, but I honestly think it has every right to be discussed. To answer your question though, I think a big part of the problem is under which label the thread is originally posted. The Grey Area would have been a much better place to post this as it allows for much wilder theories to live and grow.

So I think the mechanism already exists- intelligently post in the right forum. I have to disagree with your idea on moderating acceptance from the first 10 posts as I can see this being abused very quickly.

Also, a thumbs up for some area of ATS that provides services for users, I think this would be a big step forward.

Originally posted by smyleegrl
I think you've made some great points. My only concern....who will supply the mental health help? Someone like me, with background in psychology but no degree (and completely unqualified might I add)? Or should ATS pay for a clinical psychologist, bc I doubt that's going to happen, either.

Maybe just a thread where we can calmly vent our feelings? I don't know.

But I agree. Some of the latest conspiracies tied to the shooting are...ludicrous.

Sometimes a tragedy is simply a tragedy.

I think there are several organizations out there that ATS could approach, and if they did need to pay for something more adequate I believe it would be worth it.

It just needs to be a static collection of pages, covering various subjects from depression to mental health services in various areas.

I'm thinking it would start with a general piece of advice about knowing when to switch off, and knowing when there is nothing you can do to change a situation. For instance, something about coping with grief and anger, management mechanisms and simple tools to change your environment and attitude would be a great starting point.

This could be followed up with other on-line resources, links to vetted sites with real information, and regional services too.

Thanks for your opinion

Originally posted by Severin
Nice sentiments, and I applaud you for your honesty.

I read that entire thread in question with intense interest and like many other people, my initial thought was WOW!! It is certainly a very 'out there' theory, but I honestly think it has every right to be discussed. To answer your question though, I think a big part of the problem is under which label the thread is originally posted. The Grey Area would have been a much better place to post this as it allows for much wilder theories to live and grow.

So I think the mechanism already exists- intelligently post in the right forum. I have to disagree with your idea on moderating acceptance from the first 10 posts as I can see this being abused very quickly.

Also, a thumbs up for some area of ATS that provides services for users, I think this would be a big step forward.

I agree, that method could perhaps be abused, I considered that after publishing but thought I'd let it go. It could be developed of course, taking into account those who respond to it and their proven track record, the way they refute it for example.

If someone posts a suggestion that red rain is falling from the sky in Vermont, and there are nine posts all requesting evidence of it, and a post from someone in Vermont stating that it's not true, that would surely be cause to lock the thread?

Currently, that thread would continue for days, with people demanding evidence, others posting reasons why it might be happening, people making Youtube videos and suggesting it's a chemical weapons test by the government and everyone should evacuate immediately! Then we'd probably have Alex Jones popping up in a video to explain how the imaginary red rain is a NWO conspiracy to poison the population in preparation for the genocide to go nationwide...

That might seem a little extreme, but we've all seen this happen, it happens every week.

Everyone who does not agree with mainstream media, has alternative thoughts or ideas, or likes to pick through conspiracy theories are now, by your book, mentally ill?

I assure you that all of my mental faculties are present and just fine. On the other hand, I have observed your behavior in other threads and what I find interesting is your pressing need to point out to every single person that they are mentally ill.

Are you a psychiatrist? What college did you attend, what was your gpa, and did you receive your masters/phd? I really do not feel you have a right to just sit back and judge other people and diagnose them based on YOUR opinion. Not only is it just plain rude, it's insulting.

Now, with that said, maybe you should look at your own behavior and find another way to spend your time, rather than harassing other members on the forums. Perhaps, if these threads which bother you so much have consumed you to the point of creating a complaint thread, it might be more useful for you to engage in something else. Otherwise, you really are wasting your time because no one is going to stop discussing their own ideas on a message board, just because you have a burning need to point out that they are "mentally ill" according to your arm chair diagnosis.

Originally posted by smyleegrl
I think you've made some great points. My only concern....who will supply the mental health help? Someone like me, with background in psychology but no degree (and completely unqualified might I add)? Or should ATS pay for a clinical psychologist, bc I doubt that's going to happen, either.

Maybe just a thread where we can calmly vent our feelings? I don't know.

But I agree. Some of the latest conspiracies tied to the shooting are...ludicrous.

Sometimes a tragedy is simply a tragedy.

I hold a Bachelors in Psychology and currently working on my Masters in Counseling Psychology. The OP has spent a good deal of his time harassing other members on the thread, and to be honest I think his behavior is desperate and unwarranted.

Without Broccas area would I be able to live among the Swahili, and eventually click and pop with the cool kids? Are not five sparrows still sold for two cents? Am I here, or am I there? Show me truth, and I will claim subjectivism. We cannot assess the symptoms until we diagnose the disease. My answer? A world-wide push for esperanto; then I might know what you are talking about.

Originally posted by Thunder heart woman
Everyone who does not agree with mainstream media, has alternative thoughts or ideas, or likes to pick through conspiracy theories are now, by your book, mentally ill?

No!

Read my opinions again, and try to comprehend the words.

Conspiracy theories HAVE to have something concrete about them, a valid reason for suspicion. The current theory about Batman and Sandy Hook has NO BASIS in reality, it has been explained and the explanation is LOGICAL, based on EVIDENCE AND FACT.

By all means, have conspiracy theories about things that actually are suspicious, or give cause to ask questions. There are plenty out there.

But suggesting these kids didn't exist, that movies are talking to to people, that music videos are created to send a message about a shooting (from a "secret society" no less!)... these are all delusions, based in nothing but rumour, suspicion, and yes, insanity.

Originally posted by Thunder heart woman

Originally posted by smyleegrl
I think you've made some great points. My only concern....who will supply the mental health help? Someone like me, with background in psychology but no degree (and completely unqualified might I add)? Or should ATS pay for a clinical psychologist, bc I doubt that's going to happen, either.

Maybe just a thread where we can calmly vent our feelings? I don't know.

But I agree. Some of the latest conspiracies tied to the shooting are...ludicrous.

Sometimes a tragedy is simply a tragedy.

I hold a Bachelors in Psychology and currently working on my Masters in Counseling Psychology. The OP has spent a good deal of his time harassing other members on the thread, and to be honest I think his behavior is desperate and unwarranted.

So debate is now "harassment"?

So I can presumably now claim that you are harassing me. Yes?

Enough with the BS. I stated explanations for the insanity in the other threads, and numerous people ignored the evidence and chose a delusion instead.

And, if you support the notion that those children didn't exist, then I refute that you hold any such degree in any psychological field. No sane person can believe that and have the intellect necessary for that kind of education.

Originally posted by ezekielken
then I might know what you are talking about.

I have a feeling nothing on this Earth will help me to ascertain what you are talking about

Originally posted by detachedindividual
This is occurring in two ways, with those accepting of the conspiracy offering no evidence to support their claims, and also ignoring any evidence which dispels their claims.
…

This is the first problem – each side (not just “their side”) of the coin says “the other side” offers no evidence…and ignores any evidence that contradicts.
In my observation, when a “non-believer” puts forth evidence that substantially quells the theory, participation in such threads normally starts dwindling…to nothing.

I and others have responded with several opinions, offering explanations for the presence of a place called Sandy Hook in a scene in the Batman story, with evidence, research and factual information - which is then ignored.

While your explanations may have been the ultimate truth (in the above regards), there is no way you can substantially refute subjective, ethereal, esoteric or even “spiritual” suspicions with such facts. Likewise, there is little chance that someone suspecting or believing in this “extra-natural” factor in the equation, will be able to substantially explain “why” they believe it, much less – “prove” it…

And – as you say – it is an emotive subject…for both sides.
(No-one likes to be “told” they are saying something stupid…
They are more likely to accept that they’ve taken a premature leap to an illogical conclusion – if you don’t tell them so…and rather, let them believe they’ve seen it…on their own...)

However, it is a fact that these people believe that the movies are sending them messages, that a secret organization is releasing clues through Hollywood and music to "warn" people or "trigger" events. Clearly, when there is no evidence for such a claim, and plenty of evidence to explain and offer an innocent alternative, believing the delusion is indeed an indication of mental instability.

Pretty much disagree with your conclusion, here.
You have approached the question with a judgment already in mind.
If you cannot approach the question “in neutral” you will almost always demonstrate a bias in the “conclusion”.

...That is the purpose of this thread. I would like to request that ATS begin offering a link somewhere on the forums to an on-line counselling service, or provide a page offering sound advice in how to deal with these issues.
...There is a growing sense amongst many on ATS that mental instability is increasing here, and this should concern all of us....
We cannot, in all conscience, see people denying that any child died in Sandy Hook Elementary School, calling grieving parents "actors" and suggesting the movies are sending them messages and NOT respond with some sane and reasoned reply, service or advice.

Hey – Great. Counseling for the do-do’s (doh-doh’s).
Maybe there could just be an application, three reputable character references, and a “waiting period”…then, every-one of the first 20 posts are evaluated by a professional team of psychologists (who meet the approval of the top 100 ATS vetters)…before anyone is allowed to offer information or opinions.
…
Your last paragraph (above) is a prime example of “bias”…
Have you seen one/any of those reported to have been killed?
What do you know of any of the facts, that you were not told?
Were you there?
If not – you are taking someone-else’s word for it…
If you are convinced that those feeding you “the facts” are entirely on the up and up…that’s your choice… Many here would count “you” (or – anyone who doesn’t question everything they are told by this group…)…crazy (or – undiscerning).

As to the remainder of the OP…it’s all pretty much the same as the start. (imo)
You have assumed that your view is of a higher (more qualified & intelligent) quality, and anyone who is not of the same opinion, is probably one that should be directed to the support pages you’ve called for.
Sorry that I don’t agree with you on these points.
I agree that there are some “out there” theories proposed… I also know that I’ve been involved in many “exploratory meetings” (whether in business or other organizations) where “the wildest ideas” are encouraged to be introduced…to aid in expanding the boundaries of the box…
So – while there are surely some on ATS, whose psychological health might be in question – there’s no way around that. If you truly care about what you’ve proposed – the best you can do is “help” them see – and they WILL NOT SEE if you TELL THEM THEY’RE WRONG.
Just as you will probably not find any value in this response…
(Keep on truckin', though - I do generally want to see what you have to say! :up

reply to post by detachedindividual


Bang on.

Quick question why is this in the grey area?

reply to post by detachedindividual


Sometimes we do off the handles a bit... That being said I do not think its fair to judge people mentally ill because of there perceptions. It depends on how you define reality.. Is reality what it is or what we make it. I have had people tell me I am crazy because I have seen orbs. I know what I have seen with my own eyes.

ATS is a great place for people to share there opinions and experiences and the posts in a thread tend to sort the wheat from the chaff..
s/f....

Originally posted by aivlas
reply to post by detachedindividual

 

Bang on.

Quick question why is this in the grey area?

Because I knew that it would become what it is now becoming, yet another BS thread about the delusion, with the occasional worthwhile post thrown in.

I really wasn't sure about where to post this thread, but it needed to be said. ATS is now supporting something unhealthy IMO. It's unhealthy for the posters, and unhealthy for the site too.

Seriously, we now have threads attempting to claim that those 20 little kids were fictional characters. That's not just morally questionable from a social perspective, it's a warning sign of severe mental instability. ATS is supporting this by allowing it to continue without a reasonable response.

Ultimately, these people damage the credibility of all genuine research into real conspiracies. You cannot base a conspiracy in personal belief, with no evidence. That is ignorance, that is religion, that is not what real science and investigation is about, it's anathema to what this forum SHOULD be about.

Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by detachedindividual

 

Sometimes we do off the handles a bit... That being said I do not think its fair to judge people mentally ill because of there perceptions. It depends on how you define reality.. Is reality what it is or what we make it. I have had people tell me I am crazy because I have seen orbs. I know what I have seen with my own eyes.

Then on what do we base the discussion and science of mental health? There has to be a standard. There are entire medical treatments based on the science of Human psychology and behavior, should we disregard all of that because of personal views on the definition of "mentally unstable"?

I think we all agree that Adam Lanza was mentally unstable, and that he didn't just have a "different view of the world".

In my opinion, believing that movies are talking to you, believing that 20 dead children never existed and their grieving parents are actors, and believing that an ancient group of secret societies is controlling the world - and all without any factual evidence, while refusing the evidence which suggests or outright proves the opposite - is a clear indication of mental instability.

That's based on decades of medical research, practical application and current assessment standards. If any of these people making such claims walked into a hospital tomorrow and gave their view to a psychiatric professional you can guarantee that there would be need for further discussion. But you believing in orbs would not illicit the same response.

There are different levels here, differing grades of mental instability. Believing that orb's are spirits is pretty low on the scale and you're by no means alone. It doesn't affect your perception of the world around you, and it doesn't give cause for concern - just as believing in Santa or the Tooth Fairy doesn't really give any cause for concern.

But believing that movies and music videos are talking to you, and believing that 20 murdered children never existed, those are indications of something more.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
Then on what do we base the discussion and science of mental health? There has to be a standard. There are entire medical treatments based on the science of Human psychology and behavior, should we disregard all of that because of personal views on the definition of "mentally unstable"?

What you're suggesting is that "the science of human psychology and behavior" is a science ...like physics, biology and/or chemistry.
I have not found that to be the case. Have you ever listened to "expert witnesses" in courtroom cases? They will justify and conclude the exact opposite of each other... And ...They are both "experts".

I think we all agree that Adam Lanza was mentally unstable, and that he didn't just have a "different view of the world".

I think that - given what we've been told...you probably hit the nail directly on the head, with this assessment.

In my opinion, believing that movies are talking to you, believing that 20 dead children never existed and their grieving parents are actors, and believing that an ancient group of secret societies is controlling the world - and all without any factual evidence, while refusing the evidence which suggests or outright proves the opposite - is a clear indication of mental instability.

I could go with you through the first part of this, since you said "In my opinion"... Once you jumped to "and all without any factual evidence...", I had to...jump ship.
There is plenty of "factual evidence" for each of the stances you pointed to... Whether the "factual evidence" is interpreted correctly, however, is probably something you or I will never know.
"Mental instability", I propose, is common in everyone...including you (and most certainly including me).

That's based on decades of medical research, practical application and current assessment standards. If any of these people making such claims walked into a hospital tomorrow and gave their view to a psychiatric professional you can guarantee that there would be need for further discussion...

...yeah - don't think you would win (if you bet this...)...
If everyone who is "a little off" in their world-views would be guaranteed further psychiatric evaluations, no-one would be left on the street. (imo)

There are different levels here, differing grades of mental instability. Believing that orb's are spirits is pretty low on the scale and you're by no means alone. It doesn't affect your perception of the world around you, and it doesn't give cause for concern - just as believing in Santa or the Tooth Fairy doesn't really give any cause for concern.
But believing that movies and music videos are talking to you, and believing that 20 murdered children never existed, those are indications of something more.

You do realize that to go this route, you have to include all zealously religious people too...?
...Just saying...'

“We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.”
-H.P. Lovecraft


folks around here still believe in God...

May I suggest helping out here. We could use all the sanity we can get.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And here..

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Odd you used almost the same thread title as I did.

Originally posted by WanDash
What you're suggesting is that "the science of human psychology and behavior" is a science ...like physics, biology and/or chemistry.
I have not found that to be the case. Have you ever listened to "expert witnesses" in courtroom cases? They will justify and conclude the exact opposite of each other... And ...They are both "experts".

But both are led by interested parties seeking to bolster their own view while destroying that of their opponent. Regardless of that, there are many cases where a psychiatric professional will agree with their opponent, that might not happen on LA Law, but that's not reality.

There are plenty of less than professional "specialists" out there whose sole job is to find in favour of their boss (whichever side of a case hires them) and they will dig up one paper written in 1908 and use that as a basis for their belief if that's all they can find. It's up to their opponent to call them out on that and discredit a fraud properly - that doesn't always happen, for example the psychiatric "specialists" involved in the case of the West Memphis Three who, despite being supposed specialists, were also religious lunatics.

Originally posted by WanDash
I could go with you through the first part of this, since you said "In my opinion"... Once you jumped to "and all without any factual evidence...", I had to...jump ship.
There is plenty of "factual evidence" for each of the stances you pointed to... Whether the "factual evidence" is interpreted correctly, however, is probably something you or I will never know.
"Mental instability", I propose, is common in everyone...including you (and most certainly including me).

I haven't seen ANY factual evidence at all. No poster on here has access to factual evidence, so how people can claim that is beyond my comprehension. None of these posters are witnesses, none of them even live in that town. None of them have offered any evidence of anything.

I've seen plenty of suggestion, plenty of accusation, plenty of wild speculation, but not one single iota of evidence for any of the scenarios anyone is proposing.

1. The kids didn't exist - really? Where is the EVIDENCE for that? And in opposition, how do those people explain the hundreds of thousands of people who met those kids, who played with them, who babysat them, did they all "imagine" them?

2. The grieving parents are actors - how anyone can believe this is bizarre. So, we're supposed to believe that these "actors" had a dedicated job for the last few decades, growing up in that town, or moving there from another, with whole webs of friends and colleagues, and all so they could play the role of a lifetime and lie to the American public about the slaughter of 26 people? Yeah, that seems totally logical and plausible!

3. There was a second shooter - I've seen this mentioned a couple of times, but again, no evidence at all is offered. Was this just another brain fart by the MSM who heard a story from a very worried parent in a scene of total chaos? There were a hundred and one rumours going around during that time, lets not forget that the police and MSM also publicly named the wrong person. So, there's no evidence for a second shooter, and plenty of evidence of massive confusion during and immediately after the event, I know which scenario is more likely in my mind based on fact and common sense.

4. The Batman movie warned of this - even though it has been proven that the name Sandy Hook exists in previous Batman stories, and even though the creators both lived and worked in NY and based their Gotham on that region, right where the real Sandy Hook is. Evidence right there of a plausible and reasonable explanation, but it is somehow deemed MORE PLAUSIBLE that an invisigle secret society is planting messages in Hollywood movies years before an event happens - again, logic tells me which is more plausible.

Originally posted by WanDash
...yeah - don't think you would win (if you bet this...)...
If everyone who is "a little off" in their world-views would be guaranteed further psychiatric evaluations, no-one would be left on the street. (imo)

Psychiatric professionals are trained to know the difference between a dangerous paranoid schizophrenic and a person of no harm to themselves or others.

Originally posted by WanDash
You do realize that to go this route, you have to include all zealously religious people too...?
...Just saying...'

Yep, I just chose not to include that through fear of derailing the thread and having all those right-wing religious people arrive to preach their gospel at me