Why do people assume one to be egotistical & pretentious if they've had various spiritual experienc

Atheists are closest to God, except an atheist fool, he denied God in his heart.

Originally posted by PurpleVortex
Thank you for starting this thread because this issue needs to be addressed in some form. There is a certain individual in our ATS community who I believe is paid to DEBUNK peoples personal spiritual experiences. If one doesn't have a clue of who I'm speaking of then one needs to be more aware of what is going on in our community and be more attentive. I always hold myself back from commenting to this individual for the sake of T&C because I personally had enough.

Some people will NEVER comprehend spiritual experiences because they are too much of a left brained logic people. It takes certain amount of effort, dedication and overall belief to step away from ones mundane "reality" to a more "mystical" and "spiritual" realities and thus experience it. A swimming fish has no clue what is happening outside of the ocean life, just the same way these people have no clue about spiritual experiences until they put their logic brain aside and step into another reality. I personally choose not to share my spiritual experiences here for these same reasons. I believe it and that is enough.

Thank you, Now i know im not the only one who thinks this!

reply to post by jiggerj

As an atheist I can select what I believe in.

You just opened a HUGE can of worms. An Atheist believes he will wake up tomorrow, believes he is the body, separate from other bodies, unique from others, believes they will get to work safe, etc. The average person's existence relies on belief, assumption, projection all through the average day, and average lifetime.

However, the belief (or thought of something) is not the same as the actual something. The thought of a rock, is not the same as an actual physical rock. The physical rock can be used to break a window or smash a cop's head open or skipped across the pond. The thought of a rock can't do that.

So too, who you think you are, is not who you are (logic, reason, & philosophy)

What people believe, in now way impacts whether something exists or not.

But, this is where critical thinking goes out the window. Once that metaphysical door is open just a crack, it flies wide open.

says who. that's just your interpretation. Everything Spiritual/Metaphysical, can be described through logic & reason, except for those aspects that transcends logic & reason (such as existence and reality itself).

You're reminding right now when it was said sometime in the 1700's, that in the future there will be horse-less carriages (combustion engines) ....that blew the minds of those who heard this said so much so, that they locked this guy up and threw away the key, calling him a fanatic. Fast forward a few hundred years and how do you get to work? Now apply that to 200-900 years from now as well. We'll get there soon.

If people believe in an imaginary god

Perhaps you have the wrong idea about said God. If it's an OT Judeo Christian based idea, then I don't blame you for being an Atheist. However, approaching the idea of God requires cross cultural and historical referencing thw world over. If you do that, you end up with something more attuned to a vast infinite Source of energetic potential across all available energies and dimensions. It be possible that God is the Quantum state where entanglement and wave collapse functions happen.

then they automatically believe that all of the nonsense is possible: angels, demons, spirits

were going off of 2000 year old descriptions of these things. What do you think a person 2000 years ago would describe if they saw a skyscraper, or a car, or a smart phone. Logically science can say there are various being made of light and other subtle materials that exist in a dimension superimposed over ours.

ghosts, heaven, hell,

In our physical world we have great people who help others and their opposite (killers, murderers, molesters, rapists). We also have paradise islands and beautiful vacation vistas to visit as well as slums, ghettos, and prisons. So we see that here in our physical realm, so we not in another dimension that superimposes ours?

miracles,

When I was a hard core atheist, I used to belong to debate clubs, and had big circle of atheist friends. One of the was a trauma surgeon who I am still very good friends with. He left atheism specifically because of his almost 2 decades in the business, he's seen some recoveries that were just logically impossible by all odds. I'm talking people coming back to life after being in the coroner's freezer for a couple days and other similar logic defying come backs.

reincarnation, NDE, OOBE

I've been out of the body and I clearly remember pre-existing as pure awareness or a unit thereof, prior to taking on a body and remenber discussing being born here. In fact, I've met quite a few others who remember pre-birth and there is now founded an online community for such folks. When I remembered, the memory keep from deep within my chest somewhere, not from the mind in the head. We all put on forgetfullness when we are born here ...take that how you want ...it may be classroom here or a prison were all in, all depends really.

Regardless, although we are a minority, there are a large number of people around the world reporting these experiences and it has been so throughout history. To assume it's just imagination is just that, an assumption until science can come into the picture and really start to study these thing (yet this very subject is discriminated against and seen as woo & psuedo) ...just like consciousness was deemed about 20 years ago, yet now is an official branch of scientific study. Just like horseless carriages were deemed woo & psuedo in the 1700's. It's just a stage.

It's an embarrassment to mankind.

Opinion only. It's not factual and is only what you assume. It's inherent in mankind's psyche collectively that there is a spiritual reality behind the physical, and that will always remain

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by dominicus

 

An NDE, timelessness, consciousness leaving the body,

As an atheist I can select what I believe in. Evolution - yes. The Big Bang - not as described. The idea that there was once a state of absolute nothing - no, not possible.

But, this is where critical thinking goes out the window. Once that metaphysical door is open just a crack, it flies wide open. If people believe in an imaginary god, then they automatically believe that all of the nonsense is possible: angels, demons, spirits, ghosts, heaven, hell, miracles, reincarnation, NDE, OOBE, levitation, astral projection...

It's an embarrassment to mankind.

This is part of the problem you are having understanding, you need to let go of "god" in the traditional sense, look inward inside yourself, you have to find yourself before you find "god"!

Jesus is /_0rd

Originally posted by Angle
Jesus is /_0rd

It's nice to know you have an Angle on this, is this Curt or Right?

reply to post by 1nf1del


also opposite of lefT.

reply to post by 1nf1del


As I look at your avatar I see you are partialy enlightened.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
In my experience a lot of the 'enlightened' ones bring misfortune on themselves by taking a superior position and then getting insulting whenever anyone doubts them. It's even the case that certain avatar choices provide an indication of the general input they're likely to generate. Transcendental imagery and a tendency to shades of purple in their fonts/backgrounds are like mini-red flags.

This won't include every 'enlightened' claimant however a few have done enough damage to the notion that many ATSers are on their guard straight away.

As an outcome of this experience I usually just leave them to it. After all there's no real harm in a bunch of spiritual elitists having a chat about their chakras and starring each other's posts. Each to their own...

I've had a lot of people throughout my life smash the hope I have in other beings and love, yet everyday I still wake up with the hope that I'll meet and experience the opposite of the hate those people and experiences brought me. I mean, if there is no hope, then why even bother waking up everyday? I'd find it kinda sick but to be honest, not really surprising, to know that there are people out there who wake up everyday just hoping to smash someones hopes, dreams and experiences.

It would be much easier to just lump all of you in one corner and say you're all the same but that would be rather foolish of me to do so. To each their own I guess...

reply to post by conspiracy88


a superior position one must be granted.

Opinion only. It's not factual

reply to post by dominicus


Okay, then YOU be factual. No more trying to bolster your argument by trying to disassemble mine, which is why all you believers in fantasy fail at debates. Where are your FACTS?

No more of, information in DNA proves an intelligent designer. It DOESN'T! SHOW us the creator or you prove nothing! The best we can say is that the information in DNA is an unsolved mystery. THAT'S ALL we can say.

You're reminding right now when it was said sometime in the 1700's, that in the future there will be horse-less carriages (combustion engines)

If time travel were possible, then those believers could come and get a car and show everyone they were right. In the 1700's it was also believed that a god existed. Now those believers can - SHOW NOTHING!!! There's STILL no god to show that they were right.

It be possible that God is the Quantum state where entanglement and wave collapse functions happen.

Jeez! Man believed god lived in volcanoes, they were wrong. Man believed god made the earth flat, they were wrong. Man believed god made earth the center of the universe, they were wrong. No matter how many times a god has been proven untrue we still can't kill this beast. So, now it's in the quantum world, huh? Where will it be in a thousand years? In Hoboken, New Jersey???? Who'da thunk?!

In our physical world we have great people who help others and their opposite (killers, murderers, molesters, rapists). We also have paradise islands and beautiful vacation vistas to visit as well as slums, ghettos, and prisons. So we see that here in our physical realm, so why not in another dimension that superimposes ours?

Don't you get it??? To ask 'Why not" doesn't prove or confirm anything!!!! Is there death and plagues and crime in heaven? Well, we have that here, so why not? It's total garbage.

When I was a hard core atheist, I used to belong to debate clubs, and had big circle of atheist friends. One of the was a trauma surgeon who I am still very good friends with. He left atheism specifically because of his almost 2 decades in the business, he's seen some recoveries that were just logically impossible by all odds. I'm talking people coming back to life after being in the coroner's freezer for a couple days and other similar logic defying come backs.

This is the awe factor I've mentioned in other threads. Because we don't know why something happens, we jump to the god of the gaps. Unless this surgeon was tapped on the shoulder by someone who said, "Excuse me. Hi, I'm god. I'm going to bring this person back from the dead if you don't mind," then this surgeon is suffering from awe. That's all. No proof at all of a god there. No proof of something beyond the natural. It only proves that we don't know what happened.

I've been out of the body and I clearly remember pre-existing as pure awareness or a unit thereof, prior to taking on a body and remenber discussing being born here.

There is no such thing as pure awareness. It can't happen. In this awareness, where is your memory stored? What synaptic gaps fire that brings memories, knowledge and reasoning together for you to formulate thought? What you describe is like having a computer with nothing in it: no wires, no CPU, no sound card... Just an empty case that can function quite well, huh? Come on.

When I remembered, the memory keep from deep within my chest somewhere, not from the mind in the head. We all put on forgetfullness when we are born here ...take that how you want ...it may be classroom here or a prison were all in, all depends really.

No proof huh? Again and again and again. Never a sliver of proof. Let me ask you, if wake up in your earthly home in your earthly bed and you find a big green, breathing gob of snot with a thousand eyes staring at you, what is most likely the answer? Is it more likely that there's something wrong with your mind, or more likely that the creature is real?

As for astral projecting, I would LOVE to ask NASA to shoot something to the moon and never tell anyone so these foolish people can project themselves to the moon to guess see what it is and tell us all.

reply to post by dominicus

While this does not make me any different or any better than anyone else, it does set me in a category of "Those who have experienced certain things" as opposed to "those who have not experienced these same things."

While this does not make me any different

it does set me in a category of "Those who have experienced certain things" as opposed to "those who have not experienced these same things."

That is why. You say "I am not any different then you" then say "I am different then you because...". If we all divided and categorized ourselves based on experiences our world would be so fragmented it would devolve into complete chaos. Spiritual experiences are just experiences, as all are. Now go watch some U.G. Krishnamurti.

You compare yourself to Jesus and Buddha and ask why people think you're pretentious and egotistical? Really? You're right, you're not egotistical. You're delusional. Meditate on that, grasshopper.

Throughout the years on ATS, I've posted on debates and various threads, that through various Spiritual and philosophical paths, I've come to experience all sorts of Mystical experiences, illumination, enlightenments, and various glimpses of states where there is no me anymore.

ILLUMINATION? Many enlightenments, and not just one? Mystical, written with a capital M? So who saw those glimpses, if there was no you? Your cousin?

Take a good look at your name - DOMINICUS - reminds me of the word 'dominate'. Then look at the nonsense you write about yourself in the very beginning of your message - awfully lot of self-praise and awful misconceptions for someone who "has no you" anymore. How can you have multiple enlightenments anyway? And STILL only have GLIMPSES of "STATES" (?) where there is no you anymore? The 'you' stops being the moment you BECOME ENLIGHTENED.

Your text is certainly not the text of someone who is enlightened. They don't need to draw attention to their experience(s), they don't draw attention to themselves and list their 'achievements' like some sort of pseudo-spiritual-materialistic resumé, and they don't confuse things as awfully as you did. There are no multiple enlightenments, there are no 'multiple spiritual paths' (you don't need to write the word "spiritual" with a capital S either, it's not a name), and I don't even want to know what you mean by 'mystical experiences' and 'illumination'. Something to do with Illuminati, perhaps?

Honestly, you sound like someone who has read a lot of new age books, got completely hooked, addicted and obsessed, and started having delusions of grandeur just because you saw a light ball after meditating for three months or had a dream of a dead relative, took '___' and had a really weird trip and then misinterpreted seeing aura slightly into being The Chosen One. And then you wonder why people think you have a big ego.. heh. It radiates from every character you type - your big ego, your confusion, your ignorance about what spirituality is (no, it's not a series of "mystical experiences"), and your complete lack of humility. They all scream "LOOK AT ME" in your sad post that is full of self-praise and horrible misconceptions.

Why is it important for you to advertise your "spiritual experiences"? Don't you feel meaningful and 'validated' otherwise? Why isn't mere existing enough for you, if you are so 'enlightened' (and even multiple times!)?

What you need is a big mirror to look at yourself and your particular style of narcissism. Look at what you write, and then answer your own question: Why is a big-egoed, self-important, misinformed and ignorant, clueless "experience advertiser" seen as egotistical and pretentious?

Why do you think?

I've had a lot of people throughout my life smash the hope I have in other beings and love, yet everyday I still wake up with the hope that I'll meet and experience the opposite of the hate those people and experiences brought me. I mean, if there is no hope, then why even bother waking up everyday?

That's "every day" - two words, not one.

Just remember that "hope" was in the Pandora's box.. according to that particular interpretation of how all the horrors came to be, "hope" is one of the evils of the world.

Why bother waking up? Are you saying you can control yourself so well that you can remain asleep indefinitely, if you don't make the conscious decision (kind of oxymoron to talk about conscious when you are asleep though) to wake up?

I don't wake up for a reason. We don't live for a reason, we just live. Bruce Lee said: "We don't live for. We simply live."

That is what the Zen masters have internalized through their experience - that is what enlightenment basically is. You realize there is no earthly 'reason' for your existence or life (or 'waking up') - you simply live. Children live like this, and they are in the Zen-state - so are many animals. But adult humans fall out of that state rather quickly, so they lose the natural happiness that comes with simply being alive. Zen brings it back - Zen can't be explained with words any more than 'swimming' or 'wet' can be explained with words to someone who has never experienced water in any way or form. But if you push that someone into a swimming pool and show them, they will know exactly what it is to swim and to be 'wet'..

It's quite pityful to think that you need a reason to 'wake up', but I must admire your skill of being able to regulate your sleep with such a precision though. If I could, I would just be in a coma until this body stops functioning.. (:

In any case, "hope" keeps you in a delusional state, in a state of 'waiting' instead of a state of 'living'. You are expecting something from the FUTURE, so you don't see or enjoy what's here NOW fully. You are not living in the now, if you have "hope". That immediately takes you away from even the possibility of Zen.

Children don't live in the 'future' (which is to live in 'hope'), they live in the now, no matter how miserable it may seem - and they are able to enjoy it. That joy is the natural state of every living thing - animals are in the joyful and happy state that the Creator left them in. Only adult humans mess it all up and then cling to artificial constructs like "hope", and then tell themselves they MUST have it, or there is no "reason" to wake up.

If you could only learn that 'waking up' needs no reason, you could lose your "hope" and be happily in the NOW, and actually enjoy life.

reply to post by Shoujikina

ILLUMINATION? Many enlightenments, and not just one? Mystical, written with a capital M? So who saw those glimpses, if there was no you? Your cousin?

Let's stay on topic here, as I would need to sit down with you with volumes of books to logically explain the various experiences one comes across on the Spiritual paths, including the state of "No I"

Take a good look at your name - DOMINICUS - reminds me of the word 'dominate'.

BRAVO!!!!!! Thank you for this!!!!!! You just single handedly made my point. Pure assumption and projection, without even knowing me. My birth name is Dominick ....therefor Dominicus. Awesome way to start it off. Let's look further under the microscope how much more assumptions there are in your thread:

Then look at the nonsense you write about yourself in the very beginning of your message

"Nonsense" is an opinion. I've actually gotten a few u2u's thanking me for this thread. "Nonsense" is relative.

- awfully lot of self-praise and awful misconceptions for someone who "has no you" anymore.

Another assumption, as please do point out where I'm specifically praising myself, when I know through all my studies and experiences that "self-praise" is of the ego and a trap.

Furthermore, here's what I said originally:

I've come to experience all sorts of Mystical experiences, illumination, enlightenments, and various glimpses of states where there is no me anymore.

"Various glimpses". I never said I'm in a permanent state of "No I". Looks like emotional response all based in assumption. But that's perfect because you've played into the whole purpose of the thread proving my point. Thanks again!!!

How can you have multiple enlightenments anyway? And STILL only have GLIMPSES of "STATES" (?) where there is no you anymore? The 'you' stops being the moment you BECOME ENLIGHTENED.

Depends what philosophy we're discussing, as various paths discuss small "enlightenments" and then discuss the one end all be all capital E, along with scenery along the way, i.e. third eye open, certain nadi's open, transcendence, etc

Your text is certainly not the text of someone who is enlightened.

Cool Cause I never said I was permanently Enlightened. At the same time, why not say the same about Jesus and Buddha? Cause they sure made some huge claims.

Furthermore, in that case nobody can say anything about Enlightenment, leaving everyone in the dark by never discussing it's possibility, resulting in everything continuing the way it is (mass murders, rapes, school shootings, greed, corruption, etc etc)

(you don't need to write the word "spiritual" with a capital S either, it's not a name), and I don't even want to know what you mean by 'mystical experiences' and 'illumination'. Something to do with Illuminati, perhaps?

all relative opinion ..... at the same time, there are blueprints that can be followed that will result in everything I've written in this thread. We have VAST libraries discussing these MYSTICAL and TRANSCENDENT experiences and how to guides. IF you don't know about them & have never experience them, I urge you to test for yourself if they're true, or take the flip side of the coin: forever remain a slave to the passions of the Ego and the Body

They all scream "LOOK AT ME" in your sad post that is full of self-praise and horrible misconceptions.

Bravo!!! The stench of assumption. Let me fill you in on a piece of honesty from the depths of my heart & soul (circumventing all ego which only cares about itself) ....I will be speaking of these Mystical & Spiritual realities for the rest of my Life, from the Rooftops and Tree tops ...because this is where true freedom is found. My life was once as a blind atheist and slave to the animalism of the body and needs of the ego.

Now I rest in a transcendent timeless peace that daily reveals more of itself in ways I once thought unfathomable as an atheist. And I wish from my soul that everyone can have these experiences, the Love, the peace, that transcendence ...you included. I genuinely Love you and wish you to experience the Inner truths I speak of.

What you need is a big mirror to look at yourself and your particular style of narcissism. Look at what you write, and then answer your own question: Why is a big-egoed, self-important, misinformed and ignorant, clueless "experience advertiser" seen as egotistical and pretentious?

It's One's duty to share with others that a realm beyond the mundane exists, where Absolute Truth lives. Many have agreed with this thread, and some disagree. Both parties can't be right. I would bet my life, house, car, savings, that you got it wrong because you don't personally know my heart.

Thanks for proof

Originally posted by jiggerj

Opinion only. It's not factual

reply to post by dominicus

 

Okay, then YOU be factual. No more trying to bolster your argument by trying to disassemble mine, which is why all you believers in fantasy fail at debates. Where are your FACTS?

No more of, information in DNA proves an intelligent designer. It DOESN'T! SHOW us the creator or you prove nothing! The best we can say is that the information in DNA is an unsolved mystery. THAT'S ALL we can say.

You're reminding right now when it was said sometime in the 1700's, that in the future there will be horse-less carriages (combustion engines)

If time travel were possible, then those believers could come and get a car and show everyone they were right. In the 1700's it was also believed that a god existed. Now those believers can - SHOW NOTHING!!! There's STILL no god to show that they were right.

It be possible that God is the Quantum state where entanglement and wave collapse functions happen.

Jeez! Man believed god lived in volcanoes, they were wrong. Man believed god made the earth flat, they were wrong. Man believed god made earth the center of the universe, they were wrong. No matter how many times a god has been proven untrue we still can't kill this beast. So, now it's in the quantum world, huh? Where will it be in a thousand years? In Hoboken, New Jersey???? Who'da thunk?!

In our physical world we have great people who help others and their opposite (killers, murderers, molesters, rapists). We also have paradise islands and beautiful vacation vistas to visit as well as slums, ghettos, and prisons. So we see that here in our physical realm, so why not in another dimension that superimposes ours?

Don't you get it??? To ask 'Why not" doesn't prove or confirm anything!!!! Is there death and plagues and crime in heaven? Well, we have that here, so why not? It's total garbage.

When I was a hard core atheist, I used to belong to debate clubs, and had big circle of atheist friends. One of the was a trauma surgeon who I am still very good friends with. He left atheism specifically because of his almost 2 decades in the business, he's seen some recoveries that were just logically impossible by all odds. I'm talking people coming back to life after being in the coroner's freezer for a couple days and other similar logic defying come backs.

This is the awe factor I've mentioned in other threads. Because we don't know why something happens, we jump to the god of the gaps. Unless this surgeon was tapped on the shoulder by someone who said, "Excuse me. Hi, I'm god. I'm going to bring this person back from the dead if you don't mind," then this surgeon is suffering from awe. That's all. No proof at all of a god there. No proof of something beyond the natural. It only proves that we don't know what happened.

I've been out of the body and I clearly remember pre-existing as pure awareness or a unit thereof, prior to taking on a body and remenber discussing being born here.

There is no such thing as pure awareness. It can't happen. In this awareness, where is your memory stored? What synaptic gaps fire that brings memories, knowledge and reasoning together for you to formulate thought? What you describe is like having a computer with nothing in it: no wires, no CPU, no sound card... Just an empty case that can function quite well, huh? Come on.

When I remembered, the memory keep from deep within my chest somewhere, not from the mind in the head. We all put on forgetfullness when we are born here ...take that how you want ...it may be classroom here or a prison were all in, all depends really.

No proof huh? Again and again and again. Never a sliver of proof. Let me ask you, if wake up in your earthly home in your earthly bed and you find a big green, breathing gob of snot with a thousand eyes staring at you, what is most likely the answer? Is it more likely that there's something wrong with your mind, or more likely that the creature is real?

As for astral projecting, I would LOVE to ask NASA to shoot something to the moon and never tell anyone so these foolish people can project themselves to the moon to guess see what it is and tell us all.

edit on 12/17/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

Friend, nobody has to prove the unprovable to you, you either accept the message or move on but don't beat up the messenger!

Out of all the avatars we adore, there must be one lazy fck.

Originally posted by 1nf1del


Friend, nobody has to prove the unprovable to you, you either accept the message or move on but don't beat up the messenger!

If the messenger is spreading the unprovable, then the messenger MUST DIE!

Eh, just added that for shock value. All in all it was a pretty good chat.

Originally posted by dominicus
Here's something I'm wondering about, and it definitely has to do with Philosophical thought.

Throughout the years on ATS, I've posted on debates and various threads, that through various Spiritual and philosophical paths, I've come to experience all sorts of Mystical experiences, illumination, enlightenments, and various glimpses of states where there is no me anymore.

Somebody always comes along and makes statements such as:

"So you've become a pretentious, & Holier than thou." or "So you think your better than everyone else."

There are always all these assumptions that project egotism and pretentiousness, and it's just not the case. But no matter how my stance is defended, people just carry along with assumptions & projections.

If this is the case, then Buddha, Jesus, all Mystics and Philosophers that have ever claimed to have experienced rare mystical experiences are also egotistical & pretentious, by the logic of these assumption and projections.

That's because those to whom you refer follow a different religion - the religion of animality. This is a religion that holds that humans are nothing more than a sophisticated animal whose highest peak of religious (or sacred) experience is the sexual climax. Embracing this view provides a sort of satisfaction as evolution is complete and observable in hindsight. A deeper insight into the nature of being requires a trip into the unknown and leads one into contact with unfamiliar forces such as levitation which is the counter to an attitude bound by gravity.

The unknown is a realm of insecurity and the crowd seeks security, even if its inheritance means a total and enduring death. Also, the crowd is interested in values it can share and compare with others. The deeper realisation of reality is a relationship between the known and the unknown, which is not measurable in scientific terms and is more like a romantic affair than a philosophic understanding. Philosophy will only be able to eliminate what it is not, rather than what it is.

Also this path requires participation, it is not a spectator sport. This participation leads one astray from the well trodden path of the species towards a solitary path. It is only for the brave and human beings by and large are cowards. That is an awful truth because regularly in human culture is observed the display of bravery against overwhelming odds.