Europeans and The US Constitution

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


Genius response!

Go on then, list for me how the Marshall Plan helped Britain after the War? Oh thats right, it didn't. Any slight gains were off set a hundred fold by the conditions attached. I will happily admit though that this wasn't the case for many mainland European countries - only for the UK. Who, incidentally, remain your staunchest allies and greatest friends on the global stage - despite being stabbed thoroughly in the back at the end of the War.

Please think a bit before lumping everyone together.

reply to post by Flavian


I place the EU and the UK in similar boats now a days. You attack the "dumb barbaric" Americans in tandem over us defending our constitution . Nice allies.

It is like is I were to rally WITH your governments displacing your individual constitutions and calling you guys cry babies for not wanting to work more for less pay and have to pay for medical coverage and all that. You would first tell me to mind my own business and second to bugger off.

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by Flavian

 

no France was making the UK have to consolidate its forces to defend its home borders and exert its power in Europe, which was being threatened.

They also had an eye on Canada and wanted to secure it first since the resistance was from natives and not armed colonists who formed an army, or is that a lie as well?

What you mean Commonwealth member Canada?

And it wasn't simply France either. German expansionism was starting to rear its head, although Prussian expansionism would be a more accurate description.

Look, it may hurt your American preconceived ideas but i suggest that you look at the history of the period. And before you go down that line, i am very much a fan of your country - i just do not like how you like to re write history!

reply to post by Flavian


yes common wealth Canada which was contested over with bloody wars involving natives for many years. That one.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


What Commonwealth Canada that with native and British forces burnt the White House?

That the one?

ETA:

Sorry i can't resist as you seem to be biting.......

In all seriousness though, are you honestly taught that the UK sent a good force to defend the Colonies? If so, you are being seriously misinformed. As i have already stated, Britain did not have a decent army at that time. The only decent troops we had were fighting in Europe. The Empire was never about military strength, something that often gets missed entirely when people refer back to it these days.

The Naval strength was mainly deployed to the Caribbean, and that was a very strong force. The remaining Naval strength was kept for Europe, with a small number for the Pacific.

reply to post by freedomSlave


Im just amazed at everytime there is a debate about Europeans and the Constitution (which they dont understand) they always come out with the arguement that we Americans need to mind our own business with regaurds to World politics and, to a point i agree but we arent the policy advisers we dont have the power to say no more war, bring the troops home. but hell i didnt hear them complaining in WW2 when we didnt mind our own business but they forget without Amerca poking her nose into international affairs they would probably all speak German. I know this will piss some off and start a whole WW2 and how America swooped in at the end of the war and took all the glory.

reply to post by Flavian


I see where your loyalties are. Just the person whose opinion should be weighed when considering the validity of MY countries highest laws. Why don´t YOU mind your own business.

Go austerity, make them lazy slobs work for their health care! Kick em out of their homes if they don't pay and lose their jobs! .....nice huh....Have fun with the radical religious immigrants over there.....real nice....

EDIT:

I disagree....they resorted to sending Hessians to the colonies towards the end when the revolt was not quickly quelled. They were more concerned with losing the Island to French forces or all of Europe to crazed ideas inspired from the French revolution. They saw the revolt in the colonies a result of it and decided the best place to start was facing off against the French, the ones to start all these ideas of "liberty" in their eyes. They would later secure Canada and surround the colonies, making for an easier victory over the newly formed continental army.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


You make claims like that but then i have relatives born in the US in the 1820's and onwards - that is a lot further back than many Americans today.

My issue with you is all these claims about the Colonies at the time of the War (rather than the US Constitution). As someone who taught history for many years, it alarms me to think that all sorts of nonsense is being taught.

why don't you leave then?

I looked into it...unfortunately misplaced optimism about the ability of my fellow Americans to behave like adults led me to this investigation a bit too late in life. Generally speaking, the immigration policies of most first-world countries is based upon a point system in which things like one's age, country of origin, education, technical proficiencies, and net worth are all calculated into a matrix. Needless to say...most sane countries don't want Americans immigrating to their country unless they have either lots and lots of money, or are fresh out of college. And who could blame them really? Who would actually INVITE a scourge of self-righteous, spoiled, American Baby Boomers to move in and turn their beautiful countries into retirement communities like Florida? Likewise...there is no nation on Earth that I am aware of that affords refugee status to Americans and I feel it would be irresponsible to relocate myself, my wife, and my children without having at least permanent residency established first. If I was a single guy in my 20's or even early 30's I would just grab a work a VISA and proceed working my way into the society that way.

Just go, we don't need people who hate the very ground they walk on

The ground is fine. We have one of the most beautiful countries on the face of the planet and it is rich with natural wonder.

or think EVERYONE of their people needs to be on their level.

No worries...I DON'T think everyone needs to "be on my level". In fact, I realize that I am particularly gifted in the realm of cognitive ability with an IQ of 147. I realize that I am a statistical outlier and no more "look down" on people who do not have this rare gift than Michael Phelps "looks down" on people who can't swim quite as fast as he can or an NFL quarterback "looks down" on a fan who can't throw an NFL regulation sized football 75 yards downfield. These are unique talents which I humbly accept and seek to share for the betterment of our civilization.

However...expecting that people first READ and/or READ AND UNDERSTAND the Constitution that they so vehemently defend isn't really "elitism". In fact...it was standard operating procedure for every single generation of Americans prior to the Baby Boom. If 12 year old kids could do it by candlelight in the 1800's...is it unreasonable to expect the same from grown adults with an internet connection? Is it unreasonable to ask that Americans who KNOW they are not as cognitively gifted or well-educated as others ACTUALLY LISTEN to those that are instead of stomping of their feet and metaphorically plugging their ears? This seems rather reasonable to me. I mean...I'm a fairly athletic, able-bodied male...but I KNOW that I am not a professional boxer and thus would not run around pretending that I can kick their ass or even hold my own in the ring against them. That doesn't make me LESS of a "man"...it simply acknowledges that professional boxers are EXCEPTIONALLY SKILLED at pugilism.

So we are all below you are we? then leave.

Of course not...I just wish you would listen to reason once in awhile and not let you're preformed conclusions which have been shaped largely by Television pundits, lobbyists, and a substandard US educational system dictate your stance on political issues, foreign policy, or feed into xenophobia.

...apparently however...this is too much to ask or expect.

reply to post by milominderbinder


THEN, educate rather than masturbate your ego by stroking your IQ....

facts sir, not critique.

and history teachers have taught some pretty ridiculous things saying it was true as well, so you first have to prove you are a GOOD history teacher....

EDIT:
By the way, I love history.

I looked into it...unfortunately misplaced optimism about the ability of my fellow Americans to behave like adults led me to this investigation a bit too late in life.

so, You are too scared to try your luck and blame us huh..

No worries...I DON'T think everyone needs to "be on my level". In fact, I realize that I am particularly gifted in the realm of cognitive ability with an IQ of 147. I realize that I am a statistical outlier and no more "look down" on people who do not have this rare gift than Michael Phelps "looks down" on people who can't swim quite as fast as he can or an NFL quarterback "looks down" on a fan who can't throw an NFL regulation sized football 75 yards downfield. These are unique talents which I humbly accept and seek to share for the betterment of our civilization.

your ego makes you hideous, and ignorant of true humility and manners.....IMO. Is it not nice that people who are more gifted then you don't feel the same way when dealing with you.

I place you with the rest of the herd trying to toot their own selfish horn. I have met waiters with more "illumination" then you, and you are probably well educated...LOL.

Of course not...I just wish you would listen to reason once in awhile and not let you're preformed conclusions which have been shaped largely by Television pundits, lobbyists, and a substandard US educational system dictate your stance on political issues, foreign policy, or feed into xenophobia.

what exactly was that garbage based on? 1. I don't watch television. None. 2. I don't live in the US. I had the balls to move to Europe with NO education and have since opened my own business. Yeah. 3. My wife is not my "race" and I am a minority as it is.

SO before you prove your ignorance and hate of your fellow citizen, don't stereotype and lump us all together just because we don't agree. I could say you are a rabid liberal judging from your responses, which would make you far from being in the center, the place MOST of us are, being that we are not all dumbasses that succumb to the other side of the spectrum of social programming. Enjoy nature while pissing on your people pal.

just dumb, and you want to teach me something.

Grow a pair and try your luck in the rest of the world instead of making excuses. You have none. You are too scared to leave what you know, even though you think your self sooo gifted, but incapable of surviving in the rest of the world. YET, you want to teach me about it. Get off your ass and stamp your passport.

P.S.
I have read the constitution and the articles of confederation. Do so every now and again. I like it, but then again, I had GREAT history teachers when I did go to school, and have always liked history, and MY COUNTRY AND PEOPLE.

In all seriousness though, are you honestly taught that the UK sent a good force to defend the Colonies? If so, you are being seriously misinformed.

*SIGH*
Yes...sadly...that is what we Americans are "taught". And it pretty much stays that way unless you happen to major in History in College. Even the first two years coursework that would be roughly analogous to a Minor in History simply perpetuates this myth.

The American Version of what we call the Revolutionary War and you would call the American War of Independence gives only a passing mention that the French "did some fighting in Europe too" instead of acknowledge the salient and material fact that our "Revolution" was a coordinated effort of the French, Dutch, Spanish, and Americans to push back against British global hegemony in which the Americans elected to "go first" due to the vast distances it would force the British to travel and stretch their troops, Navy, and supply lines. Needless to say...our victory at Saratoga is pitched as "inspiration" for the French to "join the war" instead of it being an infuriating and embarrassing loss for King George III, which would be likely prompt him to take irresponsible and poorly thought-out military action by committing FAR MORE troops and resources to the effort in the America's than was prudent...thus paving the way for the Spanish, French, and Dutch to have a snowball's chance in Hell against the vastly superior British forces...especially the British Navy.

Too bad...perhaps if we were a little bit smarter and better educated as a nation we would have understood that the 9-11 attacks were simply our Saratoga, huh?

In the Alternate Dimension known as "The United States", the largely mythological and somewhat Deified "Founding Fathers" (whom most of my fellow Americans cannot name more than 3 or 4 of) boldly declared their independence from Britain all on their own without talking to anyone else or having any foreign allies and it was only after George Washington gave the British a decisive knuckle sandwich that the French, Spanish, and Dutch were able to work up the courage to get involved in "a few skirmishes" as well.

Likewise, while it IS TRUE that British had an EXCEPTIONAL Naval advantage over our fledgling state...we tend to just sort of gloss over the fact that the British had no trouble at all securing all of our major ports and coastal cities. Instead we focus on the raw determination of General George Washington...usually dedicating 25%+ of the chapter to how Rugged Individualism helped the Americans be such tough guys at Valley Forge. Even going so far as to almost UNIVERSALLY include such bizarre close-ups of the time at Valley Forge as to include that some of the troops would boil their own shoe leather for food, after they had stripped run out of slippery elm (the fibrous strings on the inside of the bark of an Elm tree) as an emergency food source and the fact that Washington did all of this despite having lots of toothaches and that many of the troops suffered from diarrhea.

While I normally applaud this level nuance in historical study...I would be remiss as a Historian myself if I did not acknowledge that it's a bit odd to sum up the entire efforts of the other three nations that fought by our side (metaphorically...not geographically) in a sentence or two whilst simultaneously examining the bowel movements of unnamed conscripts at their winter encampment. Oh...excuse me. I know the word "conscript" is anathema to the American Version in which 100% of the mostly illiterate troops were motivated solely by their aspirations for a new form of government modeled as a synthesis between the great civilizations and political thinkers of Greece and Rome...despite the fact the names "Cato", "Plato" and "Socrates" would likely have elicited blank stares...especially from the child soldiers who were just a bit further removed from the cultural, literary, and historical traditions of Europe and Western Thought than there forebears.

Unfortunately, any attempt whatsoever to actually share this information with the vast majority of my fellow Americans will be disregarded as being a "liberal conspiracy", a "Taliban plot", part of a "Communist Takeover", or even "Satanic Indoctrination" given the quasi-divine status we impart to these "Founding Fathers" who purportedly agreed on almost all issues, all of the time as if they were some sort of Colonial-Era Elks Lodge or Kiwinis Club (you'll have to Google those last 2 cultural references yourself...approaching my character limit).

...remind me to tell you sometime about we teach our kids about WWI sometime. It's 1 page about Franz Ferdinand, 1 page about the Lusitania, and then 5 pages or so on how awesome Ford® tanks and Chrysler® Jeeps were and how important they were for the war effort.

My issue with you is all these claims about the Colonies at the time of the War (rather than the US Constitution). As someone who taught history for many years, it alarms me to think that all sorts of nonsense is being taught.

You and I both, my friend.

...it's DANGEROUS.

Originally posted by DarthMuerte
I find it really irritating how Europeans and other non-Americans like to make stupid pronouncements about our Constitution when they don't have the first *&^%$#@ clue about the document and it's place and purpose in our country. Europeans(and others) if you won't do a modicum of research about the Constitution SDASTFU about it!
Seriously. Get a @#$% clue or stop talking about it.

In defense of the rest of the world.
Why dont you start showing what the Constitution is all about then?

Because so far, your exporting terrorism, death, poverty, dictatorships, democracy, etc.
Not the ideals of your Constitution and bill of rights

I mean, "bringing democracy to the world" when your country is a republic?

reply to post by milominderbinder


that is just not true. In every history class I have been in they make great mention of the French navy, training, how we practically begged France to join our fight.

I don't know what crapola you base your arguments on. I have never heard of our super hero colonial armies...I heard of the under dogs, starving, out matched and outnumbered who resorted to guerilla warfare to win the few battles they did. They changed the way the war was fought into a war of attrition. That is what made the British reconsider and focus on the French elsewhere so their support of the revolution would dwindle, instead of facing a now organized, trained and supplied armed force, so they tried their luck against the natives and the French elsewhere.

This has even been repeated by my brother in law who studied at West Point and he himself LOVED the revolutionary war, which he studied in great detail, and so we talked allot about it when we could. The strategy of the continental army was what allowed them to last long enough until French troops and most importantly the French navy could get into the fight....BECAUSE the British kept sending wave after wave of replacement troops to their losses and they could always out maneuver the continental army by sea.

You are such an ass when describing your people....Jesus. I never heard the account you are describing here as far as how we are taught our history.

so, You are too scared to try your luck and blame us huh..

Not at all...as I said...I feel it's irresponsible parenting to uproot my whole family without even having permanent residency established first...much less CITIZENSHIP.

Where are you confused?

your ego makes you hideous, and ignorant of true humility and manners.....IMO. Is it not nice that people who are more gifted then you don't feel the same way when dealing with you.

*Shrugs* Whatever. You're the guy who stated you felt I was somehow "above" your level...not me. I was just trying to make you feel better in knowing that I don't think my talents make me an inherently better human being anymore Usain Bolt's talents make HIM an inherently better human being. They just make him better at running real fast.

I place you with the rest of the herd trying to toot their own selfish horn. I have met waiters with more "illumination" then you, and you are probably well educated...LOL.

Thanks for more or less proving my point.

what exactly was that garbage based on? 1. I don't watch television. None. 2. I don't live in the US. I had the balls to move to Europe with NO education and have since opened my own business. Yeah. 3. My wife is not my "race" and I am a minority as it is.

So...which is it? Do you live in the United States...or Europe? You seem to be going back and forth quite a bit.

SO before you prove your ignorance and hate of your fellow citizen,

Ahh...you are a US citizen, again I see.

don't stereotype and lump us all together just because we don't agree.

I don't. Ever. However, some things simply are not matters of opinion. Those are the issues that I am chiefly referencing.

just dumb, and you want to teach me something.

Not really. As previously stated, I find it incredibly frustrating when the Dogma and Rhetoric which people are spoon fed dictates that they must pre-form all of their conclusions.

Get off your ass and stamp your passport.

Traveling is much different than uprooting one's kids from their lives without guarantee of permanent residency...is it not?

I have read the constitution and the articles of confederation. Do so every now and again. I like it, but then again, I had GREAT history teachers when I did go to school, and have always liked history, and MY COUNTRY AND PEOPLE.

Great...then you too can appreciate how ridiculous the idea that the Second Amendment was incorporated in the Constitution in order to enable violent rebellion against the Union is pursuant to Article III, Section 3, correct? If you need a refresher, it states:

"3.1 Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

3.2 The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted."
-United States Constitution, Article III, Section 3.

I mean...there really isn't any disputing that fact, right? It's not a matter of "opinion"??

reply to post by milominderbinder



I moved my entire family. Brought my wife and daughter. We spent a year and a half going back and forth from the consulate. I have dual citizenship. I made sure my wife and daughter had legal residence. I planned ahead and did it because I follow through instead of bitching.


whatever, you make too many excuses for me to take you seriously. Keep up the grim grim. The rest of the world wouldn´t want you. Sucks you have to stay in our country surrounded by our people whom you have said nothing positive about. AND you teach...God help us.


P.S.
I don't argue the dumbass "lets revolt" idea by the way. I am an advocate of gun ownership for personal protection. I am not a tea party Pawn. I don´t know why you keep ASSUMING things about us "dumb" Americans....

Also, you are right, traveling is much different than living somewhere, much like comparing your people to the world without living amongst people from other places in their home countries. I have never had a greater love of my people than after living amongst others. They have a whole other can of worms in terms of problems and retardation I don't want to open. I prefer our problems since we all have them. You just vilify the US, like the rest of the world isn't retarded, selfish, evil, vile, and corrupt....You might be naive or just disingenuous. Either way, it is BS on your part.

reply to post by DarthMuerte


Your the worlds biggest hypocrite....congratulations!

Originally posted by FoosM
In defense of the rest of the world.
Why dont you start showing what the Constitution is all about then?

Well...you see...we can't do that because our Constitution ACTUALLY says pretty much the exact opposite of what the majority of the American Nutters here are claiming it does.

Contrary to the Myths of the American Redneck...our Second Amendment WAS NOT incorporated so that The Peasants may enact an armed insurrection against the Federal government if their wholly subjective opinion leads them to conclude it's being "tyrannical".

Armed insurrection against the United States is a considered an act of Treason and it's the ONLY crime in our country which can be committed in all 50 states and STILL carry a maximum penalty of death. Here are all of the provisions which the cowboys are conveniently omitting, or haven't ever read in the first place.

"Article I, Section 8.
8.15 To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

8.16 To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

8.18 To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof."

"Article III, Section 3.

3.1 Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

3.2 The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted."


"Article IV, Section 4.
The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence.

"Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

...and just for clarification...here is the Holy & Sacred Second Amendment.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

You see...the REASON you have the right to bare arms is SOLELY for the purpose of PREVENTING and/or RESPONDING TO armed insurrection or domestic violence.

The idea was that we were weren't supposed to have "standing armies" to "police" us. The militia was there so that

A. The Sheriff could deputize the common man if needed.

B. The Federal government could call you up to go fight a secessionist or a foreign invader.

...that's mighty different from our right-wing, Teabagger, secessionist, nuttery...isn't it?

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


who is an American nutter and has two thumbs.....this guy....!

the militia is to be a STATE one in case the central Federal government should be resisted or in extreme cases, over thrown.

The state troopers, law enforcement in general, national guard, ect, answer to state authorities, should they fail or fail to respond, the citizenry should have a regular maintained militia to be called upon in cases of extreme emergency. They are to be trained and supplied by the common citizenry (themselves). Meaning we have a RESPONSIBILITY to know how to use fire arms.

And that is secondary to us being able to own weapons.

Originally posted by tigercat1971
reply to post by DarthMuerte

 

Your the worlds biggest hypocrite....congratulations!

America Is....