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Why does America Want Guns? Following the latest shootings.
page: 12share:
Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
It baffles me how much intention people want to instill to inanimate objects...
Someone that murders innocent people is a broken person. With or without weapons, that person is a dangerous lost soul. Take away his tank and he will grab a gun. Take away his gun and he will grab a knife. Disarm him and he'll strangle you.
Good people with guns use them for good purposes. The root issue isn't the weapons...the root issue is whatever is responsible for creating these monsters to begin with.
If I had been a teacher there I would have wanted to be armed. Preferably with a gun. The politics of gun control would have been the last thing on my mind....
They could deputize teachers to the extent that they could take on these duties. Any number of trianed teachers. This idea is out there.
However the idea of Mrs. Smithworth standing behind a barking 45. cal is just to much for some to handle. It means more to some that the Little House on the Prairie idea of school teachers live on. But we are not in Kansas anymore.
Originally posted by Tardacus
We need the right to own guns to protect ourselves because there are a lot of crazy people in america who like to go around committing mass murders and other assorted murders.
having laws that outlaw guns won`t stop crazy people from getting guns and committing murders,they are crazy they don`t abide by the laws.
Thats right. These mass shootings justify the right to own weapons.
reply to post by Freeborn
In fact I think your egotism and nationalism is showing here.
That poster was not talking about saving your country from anything. That poster was talking about arming the people of his/her country in defense of potential tyranny.
You guy's crack me up sometimes - keep your guns, it's your right and entirely up to you - but please don't try and justify it by using the ridiculous claim that you are somehow saving the world from NWO domination by doing so, we neither need nor want you to save us from anything.
In fact I think your egotism and nationalism is showing here.
That poster was not talking about saving your country from anything. That poster was talking about arming the people of his/her country in defense of potential tyranny.
quote]Originally posted by Patriotsrevenge
Americans know better that to give up our guns unlike you weak Brits who are ripe for invasion, and will fall fast.
Well we managed just fine to keep the Germans out of Britain without an armed population....in fact no one as been able to successfully invade England which is where I live since 1066. But do you seriously believe the next war will be fought on foot?
I actually am beginning to think that a ban on guns in the US wont solve the problem they find themselves in today.I don't know what the solution is. I do feel saddened that the American people have to even be discussing things like should teachers be armed with guns to keep their schoolchildren safe. I can't imagine living in a society where those things are even a consideration....
I don't understand American gun culture...but I don't have to live there so it doesn't impact my life
but what I don't like....is people referring to us as idiots because we have very strict gun laws which most of us support, when the fact is it WORKS for us.... we are not the ones having to have the same discussions you are today....
That's not to say I am promoting that the UK is any better off than the US in any general sense.....the way i see it one way or another we are all pretty much screwed at this point in history....and I can only see it getting worse
Americans know better that to give up our guns unlike you weak Brits who are ripe for invasion, and will fall fast.
Well we managed just fine to keep the Germans out of Britain without an armed population....in fact no one as been able to successfully invade England which is where I live since 1066. But do you seriously believe the next war will be fought on foot?
I actually am beginning to think that a ban on guns in the US wont solve the problem they find themselves in today.I don't know what the solution is. I do feel saddened that the American people have to even be discussing things like should teachers be armed with guns to keep their schoolchildren safe. I can't imagine living in a society where those things are even a consideration....
I don't understand American gun culture...but I don't have to live there so it doesn't impact my life
but what I don't like....is people referring to us as idiots because we have very strict gun laws which most of us support, when the fact is it WORKS for us.... we are not the ones having to have the same discussions you are today....
That's not to say I am promoting that the UK is any better off than the US in any general sense.....the way i see it one way or another we are all pretty much screwed at this point in history....and I can only see it getting worse
Originally posted by manmental
This is a general conspiracy.
And a question to all American ATS-ers.
Why the frig does the US insist on having guns given the hellish result of guns?
I live in the UK and I am horrified by mass gun killings and the USA breeds them.
Why doesn't the USA ban guns?
That is the BIG CONSPIRACY I am harking too.
Your black president cries but allows gun laws to continue.
What gives USA?
Two things that the US has that Britain does not
(A) - GUNS
(B) - FEMA CAMPS
If we lose (A) the Government 'will' make use of (B)
reply to post by Wide-Eyes
Then you should know better Sir.
Whether the US keeps The Second Amendment or not has absolutely no bearing whatsoever to life here in the UK, or elsewhere for that matter, and to suggest that it has any bearing on any NWO is plain silly.
US gun control laws are a matter for Americans alone, same as our laws are a matter for us.
I'm English, just like you...
Then you should know better Sir.
Whether the US keeps The Second Amendment or not has absolutely no bearing whatsoever to life here in the UK, or elsewhere for that matter, and to suggest that it has any bearing on any NWO is plain silly.
US gun control laws are a matter for Americans alone, same as our laws are a matter for us.
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
Don't know how you make that out - I've quite clearly stated that I believe US gun control laws are a matter for Americans.
Though we have much in common one of the massive differences in our respective societies is in our collecive viewpoints on gun control.
The Right To Bear Arms is engrained in the American psyche in a way that non-Americans fail to understand.
What is right for the US is not necessarily right for other nations, and vice versa - a point far too many people fail or choose not to understand.
It cetainly has nothing to do with nationalism.
'That poster' is English like myself and stated that quite clearly that he thinks that somehow it is the US Second Amendment that is stopping the onset of the NWO - regardless of nationality that is just daft.
The vast majority of egotism I tend to witness in these sort of threads come from Americans insulting other nationalities for not having the same gun control laws as the US and their perception that it is somehow down to a lack of moral fibre and a sign of weakness.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
In fact I think your egotism and nationalism is showing here.
Don't know how you make that out - I've quite clearly stated that I believe US gun control laws are a matter for Americans.
Though we have much in common one of the massive differences in our respective societies is in our collecive viewpoints on gun control.
The Right To Bear Arms is engrained in the American psyche in a way that non-Americans fail to understand.
What is right for the US is not necessarily right for other nations, and vice versa - a point far too many people fail or choose not to understand.
It cetainly has nothing to do with nationalism.
That poster was not talking about saving your country from anything. That poster was talking about arming the people of his/her country in defense of potential tyranny.
'That poster' is English like myself and stated that quite clearly that he thinks that somehow it is the US Second Amendment that is stopping the onset of the NWO - regardless of nationality that is just daft.
The vast majority of egotism I tend to witness in these sort of threads come from Americans insulting other nationalities for not having the same gun control laws as the US and their perception that it is somehow down to a lack of moral fibre and a sign of weakness.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
reply to post by Freeborn
I disagree Sir, the UN has endeavored to disarm every civilian population in the western world. History tells us that with disarmament comes tyrrany.
It is of my belief that America has become the cornerstone of western thinking. What happens there does affect us whether you like it or not. We have been the USA's bitch for a while now.
Also, the NWO is a very real concept and your dismissal of it surprises me. You've been here a while, how can you talk about it as if just some crazy CT BS?
I don't think the NWO is what you think that I think it is.
Then you should know better Sir.
I disagree Sir, the UN has endeavored to disarm every civilian population in the western world. History tells us that with disarmament comes tyrrany.
Whether the US keeps The Second Amendment or not has absolutely no bearing whatsoever to life here in the UK, or elsewhere for that matter, and to suggest that it has any bearing on any NWO is plain silly.
It is of my belief that America has become the cornerstone of western thinking. What happens there does affect us whether you like it or not. We have been the USA's bitch for a while now.
Also, the NWO is a very real concept and your dismissal of it surprises me. You've been here a while, how can you talk about it as if just some crazy CT BS?
I don't think the NWO is what you think that I think it is.
Originally posted by TheMindWar
Err, because if you ban guns next comes a tyranical government.
A government can only become truely tryanical after it has disamed the people. This has been done for thousands of years and people still dont bl**dy learn, are these people calling for gun bans completely stupid or something? It boggles the mind.?!?!
Or do people think that government is good and will never turn like Germany did? My god, people are really thick, sorry for the passion.
Sadly this has already happened and yet you are doing nothing.
Your rights and freedoms have been slowly taken away from you over decades, but yet there is still no revolution.
Even though the idea is good you are still as useless as us Europeans who don't have firearms.
I love ATS, but I've never felt moved to start posting until reading the pro/anti gun discussion today.
I'm in the UK here, but I know many Americans and have visited the States a couple of times - my experiences of Americans are fairly uniform and similar to that of my British friends, so I'd like to dispel a myth. Europeans and British people do not hate Americans. We don't hate the American model of freedom. It is true that American policy was unpopular during the Neo-Con era, but the hearts and minds of Europe have always been with the American people themselves. I have found Americans to be loud and sometimes obnoxious by Euro standards, but I have also found them to be warm, welcoming, kind, thoughtful and generous. I've barely met an American I didn't personally enjoy the company of. Here in Britain we love 'can do' people, and America is literally founded on it.
However, discussions like this one remind me of what I consider to be the major failing of the American attitude - the insistence that the US way is always the best. In Europe every country has it's strengths and weaknesses, but there is - to my mind - a concerted effort to actively assess one's own national qualities and failings with a view to bringing in ideas and concepts from elsewhere that are proven to work. For instance, Americans who have never visited Britain would, I think, be surprised by some of the ideas we borrow from your culture.
Americans, with the greatest of respect, seem to find this concept difficult. Without wishing to change the course of debate, socialised healthcare is a good example. My own life has been saved by this service, and lives in my family too. When my American friend developed appendicitus, he was amazed to discover that our service would treat him - a guest - completely free of charge. I cannot understand why freedom loving Americans would be opposed to sharing the burden of care to protect the health of their fellow Americans. But that's for you to decide, that's just my opinion.
Anyhow, with regards to this debate, I believe Americans are blind to the real harm slavishly protecting the Second Amendment does to their culture. We have guns in Britain too, and I believe firmly they have good practical uses as I come from a rural place. I do not believe that ordinary Americans need to have the right to stockpile military type arms virtually at will.
My reason? Freedom. As I stated before, my experience of America and Americans is one of good, honest, hard working people. All societies have bad people, criminals - people who want to stamp all over your normal life, but they are a tiny minority. I know almost all Americans are good people, so why the need to be so afraid of each other? I don't believe you are truly free when you feel the need to sleep with a loaded revolver in your bedside drawer because of what a countryman might do to you. I know the answer to this is 'well, it might happen one day', but so could a lot of things - but it's much more likely to happen when a criminal breaks into your family's home carrying because he thinks you might have a gun, and knows the cops certainly will. Fear is not freedom, it never has been and it never will be.
True American freedom, in my opinion, comes from being able to critically assess situations and challenge ingrained beliefs. If you were truly free, society would welcome discourse over whether the way we've always done things is still the right way to do them. Are the needs and concerns of 1778 America the same as those of 2012? You probably wouldn't use a medical document from that era, so why a law? You can change long held beliefs, even central ones, as long as they remain in the spirit of the original.
I know guns in America won't go away, and banning them outright is literally impossible, but I really think you folks needs to start considering where all this is going for the long term. I don't have the solutions as I'm not an expert, but given guns are useful for professional things like farming / hunting / sport and - although I don't agree - home protection, isn't it time to start limiting people to weapons appropriate for those tasks? I'm really not sure anyone needs an AK.
Anyhow, I mean this very faithfully, so I apologise if it offends. I just don't like seeing good Americans hurt or killed because of - what are in my opinion - very outdated laws.
Peace, and my sincere condolences to those affected by this recent tragedy.
I'm in the UK here, but I know many Americans and have visited the States a couple of times - my experiences of Americans are fairly uniform and similar to that of my British friends, so I'd like to dispel a myth. Europeans and British people do not hate Americans. We don't hate the American model of freedom. It is true that American policy was unpopular during the Neo-Con era, but the hearts and minds of Europe have always been with the American people themselves. I have found Americans to be loud and sometimes obnoxious by Euro standards, but I have also found them to be warm, welcoming, kind, thoughtful and generous. I've barely met an American I didn't personally enjoy the company of. Here in Britain we love 'can do' people, and America is literally founded on it.
However, discussions like this one remind me of what I consider to be the major failing of the American attitude - the insistence that the US way is always the best. In Europe every country has it's strengths and weaknesses, but there is - to my mind - a concerted effort to actively assess one's own national qualities and failings with a view to bringing in ideas and concepts from elsewhere that are proven to work. For instance, Americans who have never visited Britain would, I think, be surprised by some of the ideas we borrow from your culture.
Americans, with the greatest of respect, seem to find this concept difficult. Without wishing to change the course of debate, socialised healthcare is a good example. My own life has been saved by this service, and lives in my family too. When my American friend developed appendicitus, he was amazed to discover that our service would treat him - a guest - completely free of charge. I cannot understand why freedom loving Americans would be opposed to sharing the burden of care to protect the health of their fellow Americans. But that's for you to decide, that's just my opinion.
Anyhow, with regards to this debate, I believe Americans are blind to the real harm slavishly protecting the Second Amendment does to their culture. We have guns in Britain too, and I believe firmly they have good practical uses as I come from a rural place. I do not believe that ordinary Americans need to have the right to stockpile military type arms virtually at will.
My reason? Freedom. As I stated before, my experience of America and Americans is one of good, honest, hard working people. All societies have bad people, criminals - people who want to stamp all over your normal life, but they are a tiny minority. I know almost all Americans are good people, so why the need to be so afraid of each other? I don't believe you are truly free when you feel the need to sleep with a loaded revolver in your bedside drawer because of what a countryman might do to you. I know the answer to this is 'well, it might happen one day', but so could a lot of things - but it's much more likely to happen when a criminal breaks into your family's home carrying because he thinks you might have a gun, and knows the cops certainly will. Fear is not freedom, it never has been and it never will be.
True American freedom, in my opinion, comes from being able to critically assess situations and challenge ingrained beliefs. If you were truly free, society would welcome discourse over whether the way we've always done things is still the right way to do them. Are the needs and concerns of 1778 America the same as those of 2012? You probably wouldn't use a medical document from that era, so why a law? You can change long held beliefs, even central ones, as long as they remain in the spirit of the original.
I know guns in America won't go away, and banning them outright is literally impossible, but I really think you folks needs to start considering where all this is going for the long term. I don't have the solutions as I'm not an expert, but given guns are useful for professional things like farming / hunting / sport and - although I don't agree - home protection, isn't it time to start limiting people to weapons appropriate for those tasks? I'm really not sure anyone needs an AK.
Anyhow, I mean this very faithfully, so I apologise if it offends. I just don't like seeing good Americans hurt or killed because of - what are in my opinion - very outdated laws.
Peace, and my sincere condolences to those affected by this recent tragedy.
reply to post by Wide-Eyes
I honestly don't see how the UN has had any influence whatsoever on UK gun laws.
Don't know if this is the best place for it but I would be interested in hearing your reasoning.
No it doesn't - it teaches us that sometimes that happens, the majority of times it hasn't.
Of course it has a massive influence - but hardly the 'cornerstone'.
And certain events that happen outside the US have a massive affect and influence on the US.
There's more than an element of truth in that.
Not everything is a conspiracy!
Is there a NWO?
A discussion for another thread I think - perhaps you should start one and explain exactly what YOU think the NWO is and how you think the US Second Amendment is preventing it - I'm sure it would be an interesting discussion and one I'd gladly contribute to.
I disagree Sir,
the UN has endeavored to disarm every civilian population in the western world.
I honestly don't see how the UN has had any influence whatsoever on UK gun laws.
Don't know if this is the best place for it but I would be interested in hearing your reasoning.
History tells us that with disarmament comes tyrrany.
No it doesn't - it teaches us that sometimes that happens, the majority of times it hasn't.
It is of my belief that America has become the cornerstone of western thinking.
Of course it has a massive influence - but hardly the 'cornerstone'.
What happens there does affect us whether you like it or not.
And certain events that happen outside the US have a massive affect and influence on the US.
We have been the USA's bitch for a while now.
There's more than an element of truth in that.
Also, the NWO is a very real concept and your dismissal of it surprises me. You've been here a while, how can you talk about it as if just some crazy CT BS?
Not everything is a conspiracy!
I don't think the NWO is what you think that I think it is.
Is there a NWO?
A discussion for another thread I think - perhaps you should start one and explain exactly what YOU think the NWO is and how you think the US Second Amendment is preventing it - I'm sure it would be an interesting discussion and one I'd gladly contribute to.
reply to post by Freeborn
Good suggestion! I will wait a little while till the other gun control threads die down.
I will let you know when I post.
Good suggestion! I will wait a little while till the other gun control threads die down.
I will let you know when I post.
reply to post by KingIcarus
Americans hold that not being able to keep a weapon is just to much personal/political subjugation.
The roots of the 2nd come from the idea that the citizens can take weapons from their homes and form up into fighting units whatever the call. The idea of a central armory is rejected due to the fact that it can be captured and all the weapons taken.
Many americans understand you english to hold your ideas about this issue to be the best ones and scoff at your suggestions that we should reconsider the english model. Many here see you in a state of subjugation. That you are a model for near perfect subjugation. What you see in america as far as debates on issues has to do with personal sovereignty as it confronts the demands of the collective mindset.
And I beg your pardon, but being able to have a weapon at the ready, to protect my home and folks from someone comming in to do harm, is freedom. Dont have to wait for the cops.....my home is my castle.
Americans hold that not being able to keep a weapon is just to much personal/political subjugation.
The roots of the 2nd come from the idea that the citizens can take weapons from their homes and form up into fighting units whatever the call. The idea of a central armory is rejected due to the fact that it can be captured and all the weapons taken.
Many americans understand you english to hold your ideas about this issue to be the best ones and scoff at your suggestions that we should reconsider the english model. Many here see you in a state of subjugation. That you are a model for near perfect subjugation. What you see in america as far as debates on issues has to do with personal sovereignty as it confronts the demands of the collective mindset.
And I beg your pardon, but being able to have a weapon at the ready, to protect my home and folks from someone comming in to do harm, is freedom. Dont have to wait for the cops.....my home is my castle.
reply to post by KingIcarus
oh also
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control.
From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
In 1911, Turkey established gun control.
From 1915 to 191...7, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total
of 13 million Jews, christians, catholics, homosexuals, mentally retarded/deficient and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935.
From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated
Guatemala established gun control in 1964.
From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970.
From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956.
From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
the word "defensless" is a key word here
oh also
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control.
From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
In 1911, Turkey established gun control.
From 1915 to 191...7, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total
of 13 million Jews, christians, catholics, homosexuals, mentally retarded/deficient and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935.
From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated
Guatemala established gun control in 1964.
From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970.
From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956.
From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
the word "defensless" is a key word here
Why does America want guns? Because Americans know and understand our history. At least those of us old enough that we learned REAL American
history, not revisionist crap. The American Revolution started when the British demanded that the colonists give up their guns. The Second amendment
to the US Constitution was created to insure that Americans could protect themselves from a tyrannical government. It has nothing to do with shooting
deer or shooting burglars. It has to do with shooting tyrants and their minions.
Dictators always disarm their citizens...First they said Give us your guns. It's for your own safety, they said; it's for the children's sake. Then, they said, Get on the train.
I am not getting on the train.
Dictators always disarm their citizens...First they said Give us your guns. It's for your own safety, they said; it's for the children's sake. Then, they said, Get on the train.
I am not getting on the train.
"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more
efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" ~Adolph Hitler, 1935,on The Weapons Act of Nazi Germany
Originally posted by Surfrat
"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" ~Adolph Hitler, 1935,on The Weapons Act of Nazi Germany
Source and proof of this quote you're so fond of posting please?
I traveled England and Wales a few years back via auto. Here is my perception of the differences between the US and UK.
Firstly the people were wonderful. No problems at all. We felt totally safe.
Now to the big difference.
In the US it's allowed until legislated illegal. Pick your choice of 'it'.
In the UK it's not allowed unless legislated to be legal.
This may be an over simplification but it seems to be true all too often.
Examples in the UK
Shingles, your house has to have the exact same shingles as your next door neighbor.
Do it yourself? Forget it. There are no home improvement stores. The pro places will not sell you the goods.
You have to purchase a license to watch TV.
Example in the US.
Here you can purchase a retired military fighter aircraft (minus weapons) without so much as a pilots license.
Basicly here in the US we reaaalllly don't like being told what we can or cannot do. Hense the run on guns and ammo right now. The store shelves are almost empty. I ran through over 150 listings for 9mm ammo yesterday before I found 'In Stock". It's nuts.
A couple of months ago they announced Twinkies was going out of business. The shelves were emptied before I got off work.
I might order an AR15 simply because they say I can't have one later. I don't need one. I don't really want one. Just don't tell me I don't have the right to something thousands of other Americans have.
But the Brits have something I would give up my AR15 for. Roundabouts Those things are great!
Firstly the people were wonderful. No problems at all. We felt totally safe.
Now to the big difference.
In the US it's allowed until legislated illegal. Pick your choice of 'it'.
In the UK it's not allowed unless legislated to be legal.
This may be an over simplification but it seems to be true all too often.
Examples in the UK
Shingles, your house has to have the exact same shingles as your next door neighbor.
Do it yourself? Forget it. There are no home improvement stores. The pro places will not sell you the goods.
You have to purchase a license to watch TV.
Example in the US.
Here you can purchase a retired military fighter aircraft (minus weapons) without so much as a pilots license.
Basicly here in the US we reaaalllly don't like being told what we can or cannot do. Hense the run on guns and ammo right now. The store shelves are almost empty. I ran through over 150 listings for 9mm ammo yesterday before I found 'In Stock". It's nuts.
A couple of months ago they announced Twinkies was going out of business. The shelves were emptied before I got off work.
I might order an AR15 simply because they say I can't have one later. I don't need one. I don't really want one. Just don't tell me I don't have the right to something thousands of other Americans have.
But the Brits have something I would give up my AR15 for. Roundabouts Those things are great!
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