Why should we study the Bible?

reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.” (Matthew 4:1-11)

And there you go, equating the words of Jesus with the musings of Paul. Paul is NOT the Lord your God! Questioning Paul is not the same as "tempting the Lord!" Don't put the teachings of Paul above the teachings of Jesus!

A final word of warning: Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. (James 3:1)

Proof that James disagreed with Paul's message and his authority.

Romans 3:28 (Paul) KJV: a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law. RSV: a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Today’s English Version: a person is put right with god only through faith, and not by doing what the Law commands. NIV: a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

James 2:24 (James’ rebuttal) KJV: by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. RSV: a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Today’s English Version: it is by his actions that a person is put right with god, and not by his faith alone. NIV: a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Clearly, James seems to be saying exactly the opposite of what Paul says. The key words here, in both passages, are justified (or, in Today’s English, “put right with God”), works/deeds/actions (or, in NIV, “observing the law”), and faith (same in all versions of both passages). Not only does James echo the same words, in the same parallel structure, but he even cites exactly the same example and scriptural reference!

The passage from Paul comes near the end of the third chapter of Romans; immediately after that, opening up the fourth chapter, Paul cites the example of Abraham, and quotes from Genesis 15:6, and says it was Abraham’s faith, not his works, that justified him (Romans 4:1-3). In James 2:21-24 (the same passage noted above),

Paul’s very example and scriptural reference are used against him, but with the opposite (and contradictory) conclusion, that Abraham was justified by the combination of faith with works. James’ use of the same examples, quotes from the same Old Testament verse (Gen. 15:6) using the same words, and parallel structure clearly suggest that this was an intentional reply/rebuttal to Paul.

danizier.wordpress.com...

Rev. V.A. Holmes-Gore:

"Let the reader contrast the true Christian standard with that of Paul and he will see the terrible betrayal of all that the Master taught. . . . For the surest way to betray a great Teacher is to misrepresent his message. . . . That is what Paul and his followers did, and because the Church has followed Paul in his error it has failed lamentably to redeem the world. . . . The teachings given by the blessed Master Christ, which the disciples John and Peter and James, the brother of the Master, tried in vain to defend and preserve intact were as utterly opposed to the Pauline Gospel as the light is opposed to the darkness."

30ce.com...

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

 

Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.” (Matthew 4:1-11)

And there you go, equating the words of Jesus with the musings of Paul. Paul is NOT the Lord your God! Questioning Paul is not the same as "tempting the Lord!" Don't put the teachings of Paul above the teachings of Jesus!

A final word of warning: Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. (James 3:1)

Proof that James disagreed with Paul's message and his authority.

Romans 3:28 (Paul) KJV: a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law. RSV: a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Today’s English Version: a person is put right with god only through faith, and not by doing what the Law commands. NIV: a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

James 2:24 (James’ rebuttal) KJV: by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. RSV: a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Today’s English Version: it is by his actions that a person is put right with god, and not by his faith alone. NIV: a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Clearly, James seems to be saying exactly the opposite of what Paul says. The key words here, in both passages, are justified (or, in Today’s English, “put right with God”), works/deeds/actions (or, in NIV, “observing the law”), and faith (same in all versions of both passages). Not only does James echo the same words, in the same parallel structure, but he even cites exactly the same example and scriptural reference!

The passage from Paul comes near the end of the third chapter of Romans; immediately after that, opening up the fourth chapter, Paul cites the example of Abraham, and quotes from Genesis 15:6, and says it was Abraham’s faith, not his works, that justified him (Romans 4:1-3). In James 2:21-24 (the same passage noted above),

Paul’s very example and scriptural reference are used against him, but with the opposite (and contradictory) conclusion, that Abraham was justified by the combination of faith with works. James’ use of the same examples, quotes from the same Old Testament verse (Gen. 15:6) using the same words, and parallel structure clearly suggest that this was an intentional reply/rebuttal to Paul.

danizier.wordpress.com...

Rev. V.A. Holmes-Gore:

"Let the reader contrast the true Christian standard with that of Paul and he will see the terrible betrayal of all that the Master taught. . . . For the surest way to betray a great Teacher is to misrepresent his message. . . . That is what Paul and his followers did, and because the Church has followed Paul in his error it has failed lamentably to redeem the world. . . . The teachings given by the blessed Master Christ, which the disciples John and Peter and James, the brother of the Master, tried in vain to defend and preserve intact were as utterly opposed to the Pauline Gospel as the light is opposed to the darkness."

30ce.com...

edit on 16-12-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)

You have totally misunderstood what I have conveyed.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

 

It would be idolatry to put someone ahead of or equal with the Father.

So he was a self proclaimed thief and murderer... and an obvious liar

as you can see....

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:



And we can add idolator to the list of Pauls issues as well

Thanks for that....

edit on 16-12-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Hello.

It would seem that your friend needs some help in misinterpreting the scriptures, you make a good pair.

reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob


Hi there!

Just because my friend windword doesn't accept the usual Christian perspective... it means shes misiterpretated it?

Let me ask... Do you know what the word "contradiction" means?

From Paul
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

From Jesus
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

I can't help those that willingly choose to be blind...

reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob


We are in good company!

The brilliant theologian Ernest Renan, in his book Saint Paul:

"True Christianity, which will last forever, comes from the gospel words of Christ not from the epistles of Paul. The writings of Paul have been a danger and a hidden rock, the causes of the principal defects of Christian theology."

Will Durant, in his Caesar and Christ:

"Paul created a theology of which none but the vaguest warrants can be found in the words of Christ. . . . Through these interpretations Paul could neglect the actual life and sayings of Jesus, which he had not directly known. . . . Paul replaced conduct with creed as the test of virtue. It was a tragic change."

The great theologian Soren Kierkegaard, in The Journals:

"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner.

What Martin Luther, in his reformation, failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ. Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down, making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ"

The eminent theologian Ferdinand Christian Baur, in his Church History of the First Three Centuries:

"What kind of authority can there be for an 'apostle' who, unlike the other apostles, had never been prepared for the apostolic office in Jesus' own school but had only later dared to claim the apostolic office on the basis on his own authority?

The only question comes to be how the apostle Paul appears in his Epistles to be so indifferent to the historical facts of the life of Jesus. . . . He bears himself but little like a disciple who has received the doctrines and the principles which he preaches from the Master whose name he bears."

30ce.com...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

 

Hi there!

Just because my friend windword doesn't accept the usual Christian perspective... it means hes misiterpretated it?

Let me ask... Do you know what the word "contradiction" means?

From Paul
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

From Jesus
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

I can't help those that willingly choose to be blind...

Paul never talks about christians being equal with God, he does however teach us to strive to be like Christ.

He is leaning on Christ's teaching:

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)

It's not because Winword does not accept a so called 'usual christian perspective' as you put it that I think he is wrong, his opinion of the scripture is simply wrong. We have so many different denominations of christianity today due to people having their own agenda, but someone does not need to have an agenda to be wrong. I am not debating with Winword because he has an agenda of trying to disqualfy Paul and his ministry. I am debating with Winword because he is wrong in his interpretation.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

 

We are in good company!

The brilliant theologian Ernest Renan, in his book Saint Paul:

"True Christianity, which will last forever, comes from the gospel words of Christ not from the epistles of Paul. The writings of Paul have been a danger and a hidden rock, the causes of the principal defects of Christian theology."

Will Durant, in his Caesar and Christ:

"Paul created a theology of which none but the vaguest warrants can be found in the words of Christ. . . . Through these interpretations Paul could neglect the actual life and sayings of Jesus, which he had not directly known. . . . Paul replaced conduct with creed as the test of virtue. It was a tragic change."

The great theologian Soren Kierkegaard, in The Journals:

"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner.

What Martin Luther, in his reformation, failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ. Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down, making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ"

The eminent theologian Ferdinand Christian Baur, in his Church History of the First Three Centuries:

"What kind of authority can there be for an 'apostle' who, unlike the other apostles, had never been prepared for the apostolic office in Jesus' own school but had only later dared to claim the apostolic office on the basis on his own authority?

The only question comes to be how the apostle Paul appears in his Epistles to be so indifferent to the historical facts of the life of Jesus. . . . He bears himself but little like a disciple who has received the doctrines and the principles which he preaches from the Master whose name he bears."

30ce.com...

Congratulations!



"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. (Matthew 23:15)

You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. (Matthew 23:24)

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. (2 Timothy 4:3)

reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

Paul never talks about christians being equal with God, he does however teach us to strive to be like Christ.

The point is that paul makes a statement that Jesus is "Equal" to God... Thus making him God in the flesh...

Which was not taught by him in any gospel

The Father is greater then the son... Not equal to him...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

 

Paul never talks about christians being equal with God, he does however teach us to strive to be like Christ.

The point is that paul makes a statement that Jesus is "Equal" to God... Thus making him God in the flesh...

Which was not taught by him in any gospel

The Father is greater then the son... Not equal to him...

Father did break through a couple of times, and speak through his vessel. So, some may have confused it and thought it was God, it indeed was, but not all the time, as others teach.

Originally posted by jhill76

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

 

Paul never talks about christians being equal with God, he does however teach us to strive to be like Christ.

The point is that paul makes a statement that Jesus is "Equal" to God... Thus making him God in the flesh...

Which was not taught by him in any gospel

The Father is greater then the son... Not equal to him...

Father did break through a couple of times, and speak through his vessel. So, some may have confused it and thought it was God, it indeed was, but not all the time, as others teach.

Perhaps... but i don't think that God speaking though people is exclusive to Jesus...

And even if that was the case, that doesn't make him "equal" to God...

reply to post by Akragon


Of course, just providing why some thought this when brother was here.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

 

Paul never talks about christians being equal with God, he does however teach us to strive to be like Christ.

The point is that paul makes a statement that Jesus is "Equal" to God... Thus making him God in the flesh...

Which was not taught by him in any gospel

The Father is greater then the son... Not equal to him...

Actually Jesus did refer to himself as 'I AM', the same title that God gave himself in Exodus when Moses was with the burning bush.

Jesus' final command before ascending back into heaven:

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Paul taught in his ministry obedience to Christ just as Christ commanded.

Notice too that disciples of Jesus are to be baptised into the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. Baptism into the Father alone is not sufficient.


The true nature of Christ is revealed in the revelation given to John:

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.


The sword coming out of his mouth is the Holy Spirit: Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. (Ephesians 6:17)

Jesus Christ is called 'The Word of God': The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

'He treads the windepress of the wrath of God Almighty' It is pretty clear that Jesus Christ deals out the judgement.

In this picture we see God Almighty, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit beautifully entwined. It is evident through scripture that Christ is God in the flesh. He is the mouthpiece for God the Father who is spirit:

God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)

reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob


Jesus described false prophets as Paul described himself, by words (doing) “SIGNS” and “MIRACLES”:

Jesus said:

Matt.24:23.
“At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24. For false Christ’s and false prophets will appear and perform great SIGNS and MIRACLES to deceive even the elect if that were possible."

Paul said:

2.Corinth.12:12.
“When I was with you, I certainly gave you every proof that I am truly an apostle, sent to you by God himself. For I patiently did many SIGNS and wonders and MIRACLES among you.”

25. See, I have told you ahead of time.
26. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,'

Didn't Paul say he found Jesus in the desert, on the road to Damascus?

do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' (The Revelation of John, from inside a prison cell)
do not believe it"

Jesus says:

Matthew 5:33-37
"Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ But I say to you, do not swear at all, neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne’ nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes’, and your ‘No’ be ‘No’. For whatever is more than these is from the evil one."

Paul "swears" before God, that he's not a liar.

Galatians 1:20
"Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie."



To be fair, Paul never met Jesus and the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and John had not yet been written, so he just didn't know of the warning Jesus gave us about Paul, and people like Paul.

reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

Actually Jesus did refer to himself as 'I AM', the same title that God gave himself in Exodus when Moses was with the burning bush.

I AM isn't a reference to him being God or God in the flesh... He meant He is the essence of God... "Before abraham was I AM"... Meaning he existed before Abraham incarnated into the physical..

And if you read that passage from exodus closely you'll find that it wasn't God on that mountian with Moses... It was an "Angel" of the lord... Likely a fallen one... IF you chose to believe in such things...

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Paul taught in his ministry obedience to Christ just as Christ commanded.

Notice too that disciples of Jesus are to be baptised into the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. Baptism into the Father alone is not sufficient.

You don't find it a bit strange that Baptism in the name of "the Father, son, and holy spirit" only came about after he was executed?

The true nature of Christ is revealed in the revelation given to John:

Not interested in "revelation" anymore then im interested in Paul...

Jesus Christ is called 'The Word of God': The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

John said this... Jesus did not refer to himself as God made flesh...

'He treads the windepress of the wrath of God Almighty' It is pretty clear that Jesus Christ deals out the judgement.

In this picture we see God Almighty, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit beautifully entwined. It is evident through scripture that Christ is God in the flesh. :

No... It is evident through "christian theology" that Jesus was God... Which is something that is taught...

From reading What he actually said... you'll find that he was the son of God... which he claimed to be many times... Not God in the flesh... Not equal to God

He is the mouthpiece for God the Father who is spirit

That i will agree with...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

 

Actually Jesus did refer to himself as 'I AM', the same title that God gave himself in Exodus when Moses was with the burning bush.

I AM isn't a reference to him being God or God in the flesh... He meant He is the essence of God... "Before abraham was I AM"... Meaning he existed before Abraham incarnated into the physical..

And if you read that passage from exodus closely you'll find that it wasn't God on that mountian with Moses... It was an "Angel" of the lord... Likely a fallen one... IF you chose to believe in such things...

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Paul taught in his ministry obedience to Christ just as Christ commanded.

Notice too that disciples of Jesus are to be baptised into the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. Baptism into the Father alone is not sufficient.

You don't find it a bit strange that Baptism in the name of "the Father, son, and holy spirit" only came about after he was executed?

The true nature of Christ is revealed in the revelation given to John:

Not interested in "revelation" anymore then im interested in Paul...

Jesus Christ is called 'The Word of God': The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

John said this... Jesus did not refer to himself as God made flesh...

'He treads the windepress of the wrath of God Almighty' It is pretty clear that Jesus Christ deals out the judgement.

In this picture we see God Almighty, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit beautifully entwined. It is evident through scripture that Christ is God in the flesh. :

No... It is evident through "christian theology" that Jesus was God... Which is something that is taught...

From reading What he actually said... you'll find that he was the son of God... which he claimed to be many times... Not God in the flesh... Not equal to God

He is the mouthpiece for God the Father who is spirit

That i will agree with...

edit on 16-12-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

The fact that it is written in Ancient Greek capital letters is a reference to his deity. 'I AM'. Otherwise there would be no emphasis, it would simply be written "Before Abraham was, I am." The Jews wanted to stone him because he was committing blasphemy, they did not believe he was God.

Baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy spirit was a spoken command of Christ. It makes no difference if the command was made before or after his ressurrection. It is a command that expands on an earlier teaching that he gave to Nicdemus:

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit," (John 3:3-8)

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE.

The Father is Spirit and the Son is the personfication of his spoken Word.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

 

Jesus described false prophets as Paul described himself, by words (doing) “SIGNS” and “MIRACLES”:

Jesus said:

Matt.24:23.
“At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24. For false Christ’s and false prophets will appear and perform great SIGNS and MIRACLES to deceive even the elect if that were possible."

Paul said:

2.Corinth.12:12.
“When I was with you, I certainly gave you every proof that I am truly an apostle, sent to you by God himself. For I patiently did many SIGNS and wonders and MIRACLES among you.”

25. See, I have told you ahead of time.
26. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,'

Didn't Paul say he found Jesus in the desert, on the road to Damascus?

do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' (The Revelation of John, from inside a prison cell)
do not believe it"

Jesus says:

Matthew 5:33-37
"Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ But I say to you, do not swear at all, neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne’ nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes’, and your ‘No’ be ‘No’. For whatever is more than these is from the evil one."

Paul "swears" before God, that he's not a liar.

Galatians 1:20
"Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie."



To be fair, Paul never met Jesus and the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and John had not yet been written, so he just didn't know of the warning Jesus gave us about Paul, and people like Paul.

You are right Paul did not meet Jesus, Saul did.


Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"

"Yes, Lord," he answered.

The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."

"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name."

But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord–Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here–has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Acts 9:1–19

reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob


Yeah. I know the story. Why should I believe it?

We don't have that many words that are said to have come from Jesus. Of the few that we do have, too many expose Paul as being a false teacher/prophet.

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit," (John 3:3-8)

How you get the "Trinity" out of that is beyond me!

Are you not a spiritual being, born of spirit and a physical being born of flesh? Didn't Jesus say that kingdom of God is within? Didn't he promise eternal life?

Do you think that when Jesus promised eternal life, and that his followers wouldn't taste death, he really meant that they WOULD die and sleep for 1000's of years, but he will awaken them on his return? Sounds like "Sleeping Beauty" waiting asleep, to be awoken with kiss from her bridegroom, Prince Charming. That's what Paul would have you believe, when he talks of the sleeping disciples.

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Corinthians 15:6

Sorry, either Paul didn't know what Jesus taught, or he was liar. Jesus never taught us about sleeping after death.

Me, I believe Jesus when he said "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

 

Yeah. I know the story. Why should I believe it?

We don't have that many words that are said to have come from Jesus. Of the few that we do have, too many expose Paul as being a false teacher/prophet.

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit," (John 3:3-8)

How you get the "Trinity" out of that is beyond me!

Are you not a spiritual being, born of spirit and a physical being born of flesh? Didn't Jesus say that kingdom of God is within? Didn't he promise eternal life?

Do you think that when Jesus promised eternal life, and that his followers wouldn't taste death, he really meant that they WOULD die and sleep for 1000's of years, but he will awaken them on his return? Sounds like "Sleeping Beauty" waiting asleep, to be awoken with kiss from her bridegroom, Prince Charming. That's what Paul would have you believe, when he talks of the sleeping disciples.

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Corinthians 15:6

Sorry, either Paul didn't know what Jesus taught, or he was liar. Jesus never taught us about sleeping after death.

Me, I believe Jesus when he said "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Why should you believe any of the bible?

I believe it is all inspired by God. If Paul were a heretic then where are the letters from Peter, James, John or any of the other disciples calling him out? Given Paul's background it would have been easy for them to condemn him but they do not because he is speaking the truth.

reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

Why should you believe any of the bible?

I believe it is all inspired by God. If Paul were a heretic then where are the letters from Peter, James, John or any of the other disciples calling him out? Given Paul's background it would have been easy for them to condemn him but they do not because he is speaking the truth.

Good question. Which brings us back to original OP's question. "Why should we study the Bible?"

That's the difference between you and I, I DON'T believe the Bible is all inspired by God. I think that there are some valuable teachings in it, but for the most part, I believe it to be corrupt, and that it shouldn't be taken word for word, at face value.

Jesus never claimed to be GOD. Paul made that claim for him. I would like to see any Old Testament prophecy of the coming Messiah that indicated that the Messiah will be the incarnate of Yahweh, the God of the O.T.

There are just too many things one has to accept that just don't add up. In my humble opinion.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

 

Why should you believe any of the bible?

I believe it is all inspired by God. If Paul were a heretic then where are the letters from Peter, James, John or any of the other disciples calling him out? Given Paul's background it would have been easy for them to condemn him but they do not because he is speaking the truth.

Good question. Which brings us back to original OP's question. "Why should we study the Bible?"

That's the difference between you and I, I DON'T believe the Bible is all inspired by God. I think that there are some valuable teachings in it, but for the most part, I believe it to be corrupt, and that it shouldn't be taken word for word, at face value.

Jesus never claimed to be GOD. Paul made that claim for him. I would like to see any Old Testament prophecy of the coming Messiah that indicated that the Messiah will be the incarnate of Yahweh, the God of the O.T.

There are just too many things one has to accept that just don't add up. In my humble opinion.

Only the Spirit of God can reveal these things to you, the flesh cannot fathom the mysteries of God. It is impossible to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour apart from the Spirit.


But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (John 16:13)

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit -- just as it has taught you, remain in him. (1 John 2:20)

However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" -- but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:9-14)