Intelligent Designer? Not yet.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Consciousness is not a self-sustaining entity. Consciousness is created by machines, be it a brain or a computer.

Who on earth says that we've discovered every "machine" there is to see?

edit on 11-12-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

I'll give ya that one.
2nd line

Do the chemical reactions occur and cause our thoughts, or do our thoughts cause chemical reations?

reply to post by dusty1


Hi Dusty. Thanks for joining in!

Do the chemical reactions occur and cause our thoughts, or do our thoughts cause chemical reations?

You say one word to me. I laugh. You say the same word in the same tone to someone else, and they punch you in the nose. What is the difference between us? Our thoughts are formed by emotions. Emotions are made by the chemical make-up of our brains.

Because the designer didn't want to put the cart before the horse. Some artists labor for many years on a masterpiece. They hope that someone will see it and appreciate its beauty. Carl Sagan said that we are made of star stuff. The carbon nitrogen and oxygen atoms in our bodies were created in previous generation of stars. Humans are God's masterpiece.

Sooooo, we are created through a natural process. No, you mean God did it! No, you mean it was natural! I'm sooo confused.

We were designed to inhabit the physical universe. We inhabit this planet and receive sustenance from it. You are what you eat.

But, you just wrote that we were God's masterpiece? We poop, urinate, leak yucky stuff down there, pass gas, collect snot, ear wax, gunk in the eyes, we hack up gross phlegm, we sometimes drool when we sleep, we stink when we don't shower, grow pimples... In short, we do everything ever other living creature does. How are we a masterpiece?

reply to post by dusty1

Carl Sagan said that we are made of star stuff. The carbon nitrogen and oxygen atoms in our bodies were created in previous generation of stars.


Humans are God's masterpiece.

I didn't see Mr. Sagan say anything about a god in that statement. I see the work of a natural principle breaking things down and building new stuff with the pieces. Like ever-evolving artwork.

Consciousness didn't evolve.

According to whom?

Inherited imperfection.

This is one of the reasons I believe in the bible.

It has explanations for the human condition.

Not a very good reason. It has a sheepherder's rationalizations for the human condition. Just because it sounds good to someone who makes a point of not thinking about it, doesn't make it right.

Imperfection is what you make of it.

Do the chemical reactions occur and cause our thoughts, or do our thoughts cause chemical reations?

A human can choose.

A human has free will.

Not according to your Bible.

In matters of omniscience and omnipotence, there are only two choices:

1. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" prevents it.

2. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" allows it.

At any given moment in any given timeline in any given place, both choices belong to "God" and "God" alone. Any illusion of choice in our lives results from his having made one of the two choices above. Nothing can happen unless one of those two choices is made.

In this sense, free will is an illusion for every single creature and object that isn't "God". All choices pass through his screening process before we are ever aware of the opportunity to make those choices, but we think we have free will because we can't miss a choice we never had. And "God", knowing this, is laughing all the while.

I look at it like a circle of dots. If you see the whole circle, you can choose one at random and count all the way around until you reach it again. But if you only see a small portion of it at a time, twenty dots become an infinite number because your perception leads you to believe that there is still more dots to be followed. Because of your limited perception, you remain ignorant of the reality of the circle, and you chase yourself in circles for your entire existence, because you never realize you're tracing the same path. Now say a loop extends from that circle, leading back around to it. You follow that loop and you believe you've found an entirely new circle. Sometimes, it changes color just to sustain that illusion. But it's still the same circle.

That's called the illusion of free will. You see it everywhere, if only you can peek outside the little box of your limited perception. It's possible, but you have to be willing to accept what you find. If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.

And most people don't want answers anymore. They just want reassurance because they've lost faith in the answers. They want a pillow to cry on and a song to help them sleep. That's all.

reply to post by jiggerj

You say one word to me. I laugh. You say the same word in the same tone to someone else, and they punch you in the nose. What is the difference between us? Our thoughts are formed by emotions. Emotions are made by the chemical make-up of our brains.

But you say that word using another language, and you get a blank stare.




Past experiences and intuition play a role.


If I call you a racial slur, and we are of the same race, and you know that I love you like a brother,

well, it's ok.


If I call you a racial slur, and we are not of the same race, and you think that I am looking down on you,

well,

I'd deservedly get punched in the face....




But if you follow a different path,

and you show me kindness, by controlling your anger,

my experience with you,

may change my life forever........

reply to post by jiggerj

Sooooo, we are created through a natural process. No, you mean God did it! No, you mean it was natural! I'm sooo confused.

It is a scientific fact that you and I have both been created through a natural process.

Procreation.

The universe however had a supernatural cause.

With natural effects.

God designed and invented the physical universe.

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Sooooo, we are created through a natural process. No, you mean God did it! No, you mean it was natural! I'm sooo confused.

It is a scientific fact that you and I have both been created through a natural process.

Procreation.

The universe however had a supernatural cause.

With natural effects.

God designed and invented the physical universe.

I hope you can see why I think in the following way:

We agree that we were created through natural processes. That includes other animals too, right? Trees, grass, air, water, the suns and planets in the universe, all created through natural processes. Gold, diamonds, rocks, rainbows, deserts, the weather... All of it created without the direct hand of a god. Why should we think that the creation of the universe would be any different?

It is erroneous to compare the information of a snowflake or geological structures to genetic information, it is more accurate to compare it to language or computer programming.

Why? because DNA is in a state of semiosis, that is it uses symbols in order to transfer it's message, no physical force is involved in it's meaning, chemistry is being exploited in the process of course but it cannot be reducable to chemistry because a code, symbols are ultimately running the show through chemistry.

information is not material in that it is carried by the material just like language but is not the physical medium itself, therefore it can't be reduced to material causes. It is the arrangement of the physical that holds the message, just like these letters in these sentences do. And just like these letters it requires protocols and knowledge in order to decode it's message. Otherwise it is just a meaningless pattern of squigles. This is key to understanding this. This aspect is not reducable to physical law.

It's fine to hold out for some yet unknown cause for semiosis, but if you truly comprehend what it is you'll see that purely physical forces are simply incapable of creating semiosis. Mind is and must be included.

Think about it, one arrangement of matter, carrying the non physical intangible information must be understood by a separate arrangement of matter that then transfers the non physical into the physical for it to carry out it's function. One arrangement of matter must understand another arrangement of matter and not by material cause but through symbols or code. We transfer digital data the same way.

Forget evolution this is the very heart of the mystery of life. Semiosis.

What physical laws can account for semiosis? None. The inescapable conclusion is that mind must be involved, as hard as that is for some to swallow. Semiosis is not of the physical world.

In my experience very few can comprehend this, if you do congratulations, you understand why the materialism paradigm is certainly false.

Beautiful thread and well spoken, simple and concise, thanks, I liked it.
I will watch the vids later but.

I agree the work is most deffinately not done.
The very nature of the planet itself must also be taken into consideration as relation to us, being part of it, and surviving because of it.
We walk on top of the wisdom of ages, and watching and listening 24/7 are most important.
We're evolving (and have done) because of it even, alternatively suppression (or trying to be in control) of nature.....well, you never know what might happen then. Actually you do, it shows itself in the dis-ease of the people or the animals, or the land itself.
Mentally, spiritually and physically.
We have so much more to learn, and once all the begining information has been shared people will think differently about how they progress, or maybe even redefining living to it's simplest and healthiest form(taking all the tried and true, in what ever form that works), to start to move ahead. To help each other to achieve this.
Not regression to start again, but a leaving behind those things tried and used but have somehow become a cannon ball around our ankles and a rope around the neck of our environment. Much in the same way when we have family strife or arguing, it effects your entire environment one way or another and can cause far reaching consequences if compromise can't be obtained.

Collectively moving towards that greater picture. And If it's as beautiful as it is now (as indeed it is) imagine what it will look like after we clean up some of our mess. All levels have a bit of a mess to clean up, by the way.
And there's a whole hellava lot more honest sharing to be done, by god!! (slams her fist on the table)

To even have a question, of a non intellegent designed origin would be very foolish imho, I would not be betting either of my breasts on that one just yet
spiriligiousish am I

earth always creates better things than our imagination, excuse me not just earth but the universe itself is amazing

reply to post by jiggerj

Sooooo, we are created through a natural process. No, you mean God did it! No, you mean it was natural! I'm sooo confused.

Is this natural, or is this intelligent design?



We see the natural elements

We see the effect of a creative intelligence on nature.

We agree that we were created through natural processes. That includes other animals too, right? Trees, grass, air, water, the suns and planets in the universe, all created through natural processes. Gold, diamonds, rocks, rainbows, deserts, the weather... All of it created without the direct hand of a god. Why should we think that the creation of the universe would be any different?

The natural laws were created to shape the universe.



Do you believe that the universe had a beginning?

We poop, urinate, leak yucky stuff down there, pass gas, collect snot, ear wax, gunk in the eyes, we hack up gross phlegm, we sometimes drool when we sleep, we stink when we don't shower, grow pimples... In short, we do everything ever other living creature does.

How are we a masterpiece?

reply to post by jiggerj


So you don't believe we're different than animals?

Reply to post by jiggerj

When we create life in an intelligent fashion, one must question if perhaps we were created in a similar fashion. Man will create life in his own image one day - I have no doubt about. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be around when it happens

Our knowledge of DNA is really just beginning and it will probably grow exponentially. If I were to go back to college today, that's what I would study.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
I think when looking at the sophistication of the world, intelligent design makes more sense than development by chance. The evidence in favor of God is stronger than the evidence against.

Great post, will watch the vids when I have some time.

we can 'intelligently design' lifeforms NOW....

why does the "intelligent design" concept have to link back to a specific "GOD".?

have you ever asked yourself that?

what if other beings... liiiike us... are doing the design.

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Sooooo, we are created through a natural process. No, you mean God did it! No, you mean it was natural! I'm sooo confused.

It is a scientific fact that you and I have both been created through a natural process.

Procreation.

The universe however had a supernatural cause.

With natural effects.

God designed and invented the physical universe.

God designed and invented the physical universe? Really? Who created God?

reply to post by dusty1

So you don't believe we're different than animals?

Sure won't see any animals building an arc. Do apes have a space program yet Dusty ?

perfect symmetry of a snowflake makes you think it's random.

it's called crystallization. why do water molecules act the way they do when they freeze. if can answer that you'll win the nobel prize.

and answering that question is not observing it and jotting down what you see. answering why it behaves that way is the bigger question, not how.

you're wrong about a snowflake not having a designer, if it didn't it wouldn't be possible, unless you think it's practical for God to spend the winters individually making a quadrillion plus near infinity of snowflakes for you to have a white winter.

Originally posted by dusty1

We poop, urinate, leak yucky stuff down there, pass gas, collect snot, ear wax, gunk in the eyes, we hack up gross phlegm, we sometimes drool when we sleep, we stink when we don't shower, grow pimples... In short, we do everything ever other living creature does.

How are we a masterpiece?

reply to post by jiggerj

 

So you don't believe we're different than animals?

It's not a matter of belief. We are animals.

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Sooooo, we are created through a natural process. No, you mean God did it! No, you mean it was natural! I'm sooo confused.

Is this natural, or is this intelligent design?

We see the natural elements

We see the effect of a creative intelligence on nature.

Never saw trees like that. Awesome! I don't know if they're natural or if they were manipulated by someone into those forms.

there smallest living cell discovered yet is Mycoplasma genitalium with only 580kb of genetic information

there is also no linearity in DNA as many would think, not the more "advanced" organism has the biggest DNA

"The amoeba is remarkable for its very large genome. The species Amoeba proteus has 290 billion base pairs in its genome, while the related Polychaos dubium (formerly known as Amoeba dubia) has 670 billion base pairs. The human genome is small by contrast, with its count of 2.9 billion base pairs."

...
also interesting are those creatures Lithotrophs and Geobacter

for thous who don't trust Wikipedia go and take some lessons in the Church

reply to post by prevenge


I don't think it HAS to link back to a specific God, but at some point the chain ends and I think there is a force in the world that specifically promotes life and is fundamental to the origin of the entire universe. That's really not too out there or unfounded theory.