Why is the discussion about "gay marriage" so narrowly focused on ONLY the Christian church?

Originally posted by davjan4
In order for sodomy to gain acceptance everywhere, they have to infiltrate the largest institutions, the government, the schools and the Christian Church.

Lots of straight, loving married couples engage in 'bum fun' without the need for the government, schools or the Church to tell them what they should or shouldn't be doing in the bedroom. Always have done.

Originally posted by PvtHudson
First of all, I'm not religious. I'm agnostic. So, please spare me the accusations of being a butt hurt Christian.

All I want to know is why the discussion of gay marriage is so narrowly focused on one church, the Christian church? You never hear anyone complaining the mosques in America dont marry gays. You never see stories in the MSM about how hateful and bigoted Muslim are for not allowing gays to be married. All I ever hear or see is a complaint the Christian church wont allow gay marriage.

Why hasn't the gay movement focused on getting all the same government benefits of marriage through civil unions? Why the fight to re-define what the Christian institution of marriage? It seems to me they would have a much easier time doing that?

Is this all about discrediting and demonizing Christianity?

First, let me just state out-right that you have a valid point. Christianity should not be the only religious institution in America that is critiqued for stances on gay marriage, period. Now, having said that, I would argue that primary reason is that Christianity has historically been the most politically/culturally influential sect in America, period. I think because of this fact, most media attention concerning the religious and moral arguments about gay marriage will inevitably fall into the lap of Christianity, its authoritative institutions, and its leaders, etc. Christians and their yolk/leadership play a larger role in defining the moral and cultural norms of this country than any other religion, belief, sect, or non-belief. So, if Christians swing one way or another on a particular issue (in this case, gay marriage) than it will be noticed. I don't think anyone (at least not the MSM, anyway) is attempting to actively "discredit" Christianity through gay marriage debates. Honestly, there are far more effective ways to discredit Christianity, anyway. I would argue using gay marriage as a debate tool against long-held conservative beliefs of Judeo-Christian origin is actually the least affective way of taking on Christianity---if one had that goal, that is. Just my thought anyway.

-Ghoster

Originally posted by pirhanna
reply to post by PvtHudson

 

The answer is obvious.
This nation is predominantly Christian and it is their religion that
is the one making policy against gay marriage. Christianity is the religion
of power and political influence in America. There is no reason to focus
on Gay Marriage and say Shintoism. Why? Duh. *facepalm*

Perhaps you have only been outside of your time machine for a few hours, by your statement I am guessing you are from the 1950s. Things are much different in 2012. Watch network television for 5 minutes and show me where the Christian influence is. Just because Jesus name is used repeatedly, doesn't mean it is a religious program. Lots and lots of crime, drug use, alcoholism, cases of STDs, and all around immorality. Can't say any of that behavior is encouraged by Christians. As far as "political power", being a Christian gets you mocked and ridiculed. If you are oppossed to gay marriage, you're a hate monger, opposed to Darwininan evolution, you deny science etc. Perhaps you should return to your time, because we a reaping the fruits of kicking God out of our society, and they aren't pretty.

To those who cite the persecution in the dark ages.

Those people who perpetrated that were wrong. No question about it. Satan is real, and he has no qualms about using the Church, when he can, to destroy whatever he can. In fact, Church is a great weapon. Destroys people and turns others against God all in one fell swoop.

People screw up the Bible. Usually for power or control.

As for me, I just read it. I pray for wisdom to understand it. That's all you need really.

I could go on for pages about my faith. It all started when I picked up a bible and just started reading on my own. Nobody told me what to believe.

If you are a reader, read "The Screwtape Letters". Then pick up a New Testament that's written in everyday language and just start at the begenning. And don't fall for modern psyco-babble Christianity that's nothing more than glorified self-help and self esteem garbage. And there's LOTS of that.

Meanwhile the Bible promises that Christian will be persecuted. And we will. Although it will get much worse, in some areas it's already started.

Back in 1976 or so a youth pastor told me "Christians will be persecuted in the country in 10 years". I thought he was insane. Turns out he was right. As I compare 1976 to today, the Christian faith is more and more under attack. More is coming.

Originally posted by PvtHudson
First of all, I'm not religious. I'm agnostic. So, please spare me the accusations of being a butt hurt Christian.

All I want to know is why the discussion of gay marriage is so narrowly focused on one church, the Christian church? You never hear anyone complaining the mosques in America dont marry gays. You never see stories in the MSM about how hateful and bigoted Muslim are for not allowing gays to be married. All I ever hear or see is a complaint the Christian church wont allow gay marriage.

Why hasn't the gay movement focused on getting all the same government benefits of marriage through civil unions? Why the fight to re-define what the Christian institution of marriage? It seems to me they would have a much easier time doing that?

Is this all about discrediting and demonizing Christianity?

You have to take one ungodly dogmatic human doctrinal judging religion lieing about what god want's at a time and is not Jesus preaching love. If the Christians where as Jesus then this would not be an issue but many are not. That is what happens when you listen to Pauls teaching and not Jesus. You created a church on Pauls doctrines.

But yes Islams are even more screwed up in duality than the Christians from my point of view. You ate from the apple of duality and thought you ego minds was able to judge right from wrong as good as god and lost the light and counsil and feeling of divine love from god.

If god creates love between 2 people it is against gods will to stand in the way of it.

Originally posted by kingofmd

Originally posted by pirhanna
reply to post by PvtHudson

 

The answer is obvious.
This nation is predominantly Christian and it is their religion that
is the one making policy against gay marriage. Christianity is the religion
of power and political influence in America. There is no reason to focus
on Gay Marriage and say Shintoism. Why? Duh. *facepalm*

Perhaps you have only been outside of your time machine for a few hours, by your statement I am guessing you are from the 1950s. Things are much different in 2012. Watch network television for 5 minutes and show me where the Christian influence is. Just because Jesus name is used repeatedly, doesn't mean it is a religious program. Lots and lots of crime, drug use, alcoholism, cases of STDs, and all around immorality. Can't say any of that behavior is encouraged by Christians.As far as "political power", being a Christian gets you mocked and ridiculed. If you are oppossed to gay marriage, you're a hate monger, opposed to Darwininan evolution, you deny science etc. Perhaps you should return to your time, because we a reaping the fruits of kicking God out of our society, and they aren't pretty.

edit on 11-12-2012 by kingofmd because: spellin'

Well, this isn't quite accurate. Crime, drug use, alcoholism, sexual transmitted diseases and immorality didn't suddenly start increasing because Christianity and its influences have declined over the least five decades. These things were all very much prevalent even before the 1950's---the only difference is that people were perhaps more "hush-hush" about it. In fact, I believe teen pregnancy rates have been pretty low, college attendance rates have been steadily increasing, kids are far more educated, most kids wouldn't even think of smoking a cigarette, and I believe crime rates have been at an all time low. In general, most of the developing and non-developing world is stabilizing and less erratic and violent. Also, I don't recall God ever being "kicked out of society"--last time I checked statistics show that most people believe in some type of moral higher-power. I will argue that Christianity has had fewer and fewer outlets in terms of media (tv, radio, etc), but I think that is also partly due to the wide and varying amount of entertainment choices that are now available to people, while before the 1950's most people's world views and exposure was narrow and provincial. The bible was all they had to read for guidance, direction and yes, even entertainment. And as far being labelled a hate mongering Darwinian anti-science person---I think you would be hard pressed to find the average joe/jane-atheist/agnostic/secularist feeling that way about those who are Christian. I certainly don't.

What is my point here? My point is this: This thread had inherent weakness in its post (no offence to the original poster, of course--I know you meant well) in that it allowed for way too many generalizations and straw-man arguments from either side to be tossed about. No progress or understanding would have ever come from this thread, anyway.

-Ghoster

Originally posted by something wicked
Prior to getting to the point, it took America until the 1960's before segregation based on colour was against state law, so it's a little rich calling a religion bigoted! Anyway...

That makes no sense whatsoever. There are about 30 different verses in the Christian bible that are cited as reasons to support segregation. It was a huge proponent for segregation. If anything, you are just adding to my point. Christians had to simply "get over" it and decide that they were wrong. There aren't many Christians now days that support it because their churches no longer teach it. Christianity isn't the problem nor are the Christians; it's the church. Many Christians agree.

Originally posted by something wicked
I think you aren't covering the full issue. There are two points, should the state (and I mean government by state, not individual American states for those of you that are American) recognise the marriage rather than civil partnership between two people of the same sex? That is I guess a legal question that is fairly straightforward. The state issues the marriage license so no religious input is required.

But that's wrong, this is the issue that most anti-equality folks have. It's obvious that it is a state issue but the religious extremists insist that they own the definition of "marriage". They are opposing this. They don't seem to understand that it is not a church that makes your marriage legal but it is the state that does that. Changing the legal definition does not affect the religious definition in any way. At all.

Originally posted by something wicked
The second point is should a religion - any religion be forced by the state to perform same sex marriage? That is a different question and is the issue. In the UK for example there is discussion that the Church of England should be 'influenced' to perform same sex marriage as it is classed as the state religion and members of its clergy sit in the house of Lords. Not personally sure what I think of that.

This is the lie that FOX and many Christian church groups are spreading. If marriage equality passes, it will NOT force any church to "gay marry" anybody. In fact, churches even today can refuse to marry a person for any reason. There are still churches that won't marry interracial couples. Do you think churches are forced to hold Satanic weddings from Satanic couples? There are many many options for marriage venues. You don't even need a church and you certainly don't need a Christian church.

Heck, even I"m ordained. I can marry gay couples as soon as the legislation is passed in my state.

Originally posted by something wicked
For what it's worth, my view is that same sex marriage performed by the state in a non religious building should be as legal as a mixed sex marriage - that is in line with equal rights (no trolling please, this is based on a couple of consensual age). I don't believe any religion should be co-erced to do the same.

What you just described is the only goal of the marriage equality movement. Anything else you hear is just fear-rhetoric to scare Christians into thinking they will have gay couples getting married right in their churches (in front of Jesus on the cross, no less, gasp!). It is a lie to scare. That is all. No church will be forced to perform any wedding they do not want to perform. And they will still get all their tax breaks.

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by something wicked
Prior to getting to the point, it took America until the 1960's before segregation based on colour was against state law, so it's a little rich calling a religion bigoted! Anyway...

That makes no sense whatsoever. There are about 30 different verses in the Christian bible that are cited as reasons to support segregation. It was a huge proponent for segregation. If anything, you are just adding to my point. Christians had to simply "get over" it and decide that they were wrong. There aren't many Christians now days that support it because their churches no longer teach it. Christianity isn't the problem nor are the Christians; it's the church. Many Christians agree.

If you are seriously saying that the bible is the only reason racial inequality lasted so long (and still does to a large extent) in America, then it's hard to know what to say. Much is made of the 'founding fathers' not being Christian, yet the constitution did not grant a black man the rights of a white man - is that a question of faith or economics? I know which I think it was, given I think I'm right in saying all 'owned' slaves.

For the rest of your post, kind of opinion based isn't it? Today the UK government has actually made it illegal for the Church of England to marry same sex couples - weird if you ask me but there you go.

www.bbc.co.uk...

reply to post by PvtHudson

At least Christians don't execute homosexuals like they do in countries under Sharia law.

reply to post by Viking9019


i disagree.
islam is targeted by christians and republicans

reply to post by ChefG


you need to rethink that statement
the Lords Resistance Army has done plenty of that.
Also, American evangelicals helped fund the laws in Africa to imprison or execute homosexuals.

Originally posted by Chamberf=6

Originally posted by Quadrivium
This is something that has to be done. Look around. Christians are not only getting solely blamed for this but many other things as well.
It has to be done. It will get much worse but it has to.

I personally do not believe the government should have a role in marriages. This is something that should be out of governmental hands.
Quad

So a religion with many different sects of differing beliefs should be thes who decide who can marry who??

The only hands this issue should be in are the two people who want to get married.

Perhaps you would like to read my post again.

Originally posted by jimmyx


please...400 years of religous persecution and murder against non-believers makes me vomit. it is known as the "dark ages" in europe. funny how religous christians skip over those centuries of death and despair. ANY PERSONS RELIGION should be in their own home and in the church of their choosing, and kept away from having any power over the general public. the belief in mythical beings, and those mythical beings writings, cancels out any legitimate say in the publics business.

No offence, but I think you're confused about the 'dark ages' and are possibly thinking of something else. The 'dark ages' was triggered by the contraction and collapse of a, by then, ostensibly Christian Roman Empire. The removal of outposts in places like Britain, created a power vacuum, which helped facilitate the Great Völkerwanderung or the Migration Period. In Britain, this allowed the movement of Angles/Saxons/Jutes/Frisians into the British mainland.

By the 7th Century Britain was a predominantly Christian again and, despite what most people think, (given the name the Dark Ages) it was a hotbed of scholarly activity. Conflict within the Heptarchy wasn't on religious grounds, and any real 'heathen threat' was generally thought of as coming from abroad rather than a domestic menace. Heathen to Christian conversion was seen a form of desirable 'social mobility' across all strata of society. By the time Canute was on the throne, it was the only way to tap into the power of Europe. It was something the Normans had realised very early on too, and the Normans were cathedral builders extraordinaire.

If you're thinking of the Spanish Inquisition and similar, or even the religious blood fests during the time of the Tudors &c, they happened long after the end of the Dark Ages.

Good point to have noticed. To my knowledge, no religion condones homosexuality. I will add that those who wish to enslave and kill off humanity view reducing humanity or a segment thereof to immoral, soulless animals as a prerequisite. Even the drug laws are in fact made for Animals which they consider most of you...no,not me.

One shade of this was well expressed in the Godfather:


If my point has not been made well enough, consider this; In the eyes of the Elites this world is theirs and most of humanity are parasitic eaters feeding on their resources but some say, hold on, these are human beings with the spark of the creator in them and in response the others say, OKAY, we will give them the opportunity to choose right from wrong, righteousness from corruptions and those who choose to corrupt themselves (homosexuality, drug abuse, bad eating habits etc etc) will prove themselves unworthy animals fit only to grease the wheels and be fertilizer for the true humanity and its progress. If you think this is not true, look at who they marry, look at how they view divorce, drug use etc etc...it is fine for the "Animals" but not them.

And Yes, I agree with them.

And as for those who believe homosexuals deserve the same rights to marriage as heterosexuals, I maintain that people who do not believe and honor God as set forth in their religion, have no business being married within that church or religion because such is a union before God. Let the others have Civil Ceremonies if they must because they only one to which such a union could be sacred to is the IRS.

Sane Answer: Well for one, Gays are fighting for the rights to have marriages recoginized, not to get married in a Christian Church. The actual reason is that Fundamentalist Christians are the biggest obstacle when it comes to Gay Marriage being legally recoginized.

Also, since the marriage they're talking about is the legal type, anything about it being Christian (which even if you were actually right about that) is irrelevant. The United States is a not a theocracy.

Insane Answer: It is a Marxist/Socialist/Communist/Satanist/Globalist/Leftist/Islamic conspiracy to destroy the institution of Christanity and the our way of life.

Originally posted by technical difficulties
Sane Answer: Well for one, Gays are fighting for the rights to have marriages recoginized, not to get married in a Christian Church. The actual reason is that Fundamentalist Christians are the biggest obstacle when it comes to Gay Marriage being legally recoginized.

Also, since the marriage they're talking about is the legal type, anything about it being Christian (which even if you were actually right about that) is irrelevant. The United States is a not a theocracy.

Insane Answer: It is a Marxist/Socialist/Communist/Satanist/Globalist/Leftist/Islamic conspiracy to destroy the institution of Christanity and the our way of life.

CORRECT ANSWER: It is a Marxist/Socialist/Communist/Luciferian conspiracy to destroy humanity.


And you "Gays" who think being married before God in a Church will give your union some special legitimacy, substance and longevity can think again, there are millions of church wedding marriages that end in divorce each year; the Lawyers are betting on it and you to add to their client base. All this aside, what is the point of marriage if you can't have children?

Originally posted by MajorKarma


CORRECT ANSWER: It is a Marxist/Socialist/Communist/Luciferian conspiracy to destroy humanity.

edit on 11-12-2012 by MajorKarma because: (no reason given)

Considering the fact that there is no astronomical proof to back up this astronomically crazy theory, no it is not, hence why it is an insane answer. Try again.

Originally posted by technical difficulties

Originally posted by MajorKarma


CORRECT ANSWER: It is a Marxist/Socialist/Communist/Luciferian conspiracy to destroy humanity.

edit on 11-12-2012 by MajorKarma because: (no reason given)

Considering the fact that there is no astronomical proof to back up this astronomically crazy theory, no it is not, hence why it is an insane answer. Try again.

Well, you are not my responsibility or problem, so you are welcome to believe whatever you like (Closet Geniuses and Clerk Rhetoric make me ill).

OP brings up a very good point. Why only the Christian church? Bear in mind that I don`t really have any strong religious beliefs. I tend to look at things from a more materialist point of view.

The right to love someone, and have legal rights related to that partnership, seems both natural and fair for society at large. If people in a relationship in which both partners are of a different sex get legal rights and benefits, then same-sex partnership should get the same legal rights and benefits.

Yet, it is not just an American issue. It is something which is an issue internationally. For example, here in Japan one of the major political parties has said that homosexuals do not need rights. It is shocking to me considering the nature of modern Japanese culture in which there is a very active gay community.

Originally posted by PvtHudson
First of all, I'm not religious. I'm agnostic. So, please spare me the accusations of being a butt hurt Christian.

All I want to know is why the discussion of gay marriage is so narrowly focused on one church, the Christian church? You never hear anyone complaining the mosques in America dont marry gays. You never see stories in the MSM about how hateful and bigoted Muslim are for not allowing gays to be married. All I ever hear or see is a complaint the Christian church wont allow gay marriage.

Why hasn't the gay movement focused on getting all the same government benefits of marriage through civil unions? Why the fight to re-define what the Christian institution of marriage? It seems to me they would have a much easier time doing that?

Is this all about discrediting and demonizing Christianity?

It is because CHRISTIANS are so vocal about gay lifestyles and marriage. The BIBLE is completely against the gay lifestyle. GOD considered the gay lifestyle an "ABOMINATION".