Jizya - A tax that you must pay for not accepting Islam

Originally posted by buster2010
Muslim's have to pay taxes so why shouldn't non Muslims? People like to claim that America is a Christian nation so are Christians extorting taxes from non Christians?

Um...last i checked churches were exempt from taxes

Originally posted by Mclaneinc
I'd like to see them try and enforce it here in the UK, mind you after a rather radical known group had their mega mosque request turned down I suspect they would try anything.
Again, this only applies to Islamic states and as far as I know from earlier today we are still not an Islamic state (officially).

and finally someone told the truth.

Its about time people were treated as individuals and not religious / political groups.
One rule for us all please, that's the way it works best....

monotheistic religions are for unity of humanity and there is already one rule my friend !
worship the only God (as in monotheistic religions) or at least be a human.

As usual in this thread all we hear from the islamists and their outspoken defenders (even though their secular humanist for the most part leanings would get them KILLED in any nation under sharia law) is a bunch of tap dancing around the ugly truth and or outright prevarications!

At the end of the day islam is and always has been and probably always will be A misogynistic control freaks wet dream.

All of you islam supporters out there constantly harp on the ten or twenty surahs that promote peace and charity while deliberately LYING about the HUNDREDS of surahs that promote misogyny, violence, extortion, and a host of other nasty and thoroughly disgusting practices!

As far as "moderate islamics" go the ugly truth is they are only moderate because they choose not to follow many of the core tenets of their faith!

Islam is a PLAGUE on this earth and needs to be treated as such.

Originally posted by butcherguy

Originally posted by Expat888
funny... am buddhist and have lived in islamic countries in the past NEVER got taxed for not being muslim.

Some countries only apply the jizya if you are JEWISH.

Maybe someday they will come for the Buddhists.
]
Were you okay with this?te
Buddhas of Bamiyan

actually.. I pity the men who did that... their faith was corrupted by those who do not follow the true path of islam ... as buddhists we learn not to become attached to material things ... life is transient we are here to learn and grow on the path to enlightenment .. attachment to material things hinders ones progress... they cannot destroy an idea.. the spirit nor truth for those transcend the material ...

Originally posted by maes2

1)You say "Jazia is approximately an obsolete law in Islam."
Well you may not be aware that there are many muslims who are demanding that Jizya be practised .
Now before you claim that I am lying,i present to you ->

I never say that you are lying. I know how those black sheeps are.

2)You say " and that was not just because of not accepting Islam. "
Yes you are right.It is because of the protection that the state has to provide too.
It is for 'allowing them to practice their religion too'.

yes I know that you wrote the truth but :
1-in that time Mohammad was a leader of a popular and legitimate government. Taliban and those radical terrorist groups are neither a government nor legitimate.
2-in that time there were no concept of nationality. so the minority christians and jews did not participate in wars neither for and nor against polytheists in the neighbourhood. because of such exemptions they would pay Jazia as a tax. and Muslims would pay Zakat as a tax.
3-Mohammad was not cruel against minorities. because monotheistic religions are all from one source and Koran declares it many times. the only conflict between Mohammad and other religions I can remember now is when the minority jews broke the agreement and cooperated with foreign Polytheists and that conflict ended without any bloodshed and the minority jews gave in without any war. and I can not remember any conflict between Mohammad and chiristians ! there were no conflict between them. not at all !!

(a)Taliban are not black sheep's .They are human just like us.They fight for Islam.
The dictionary defination of human is :-

I did not mean they were sheeps, black sheep was an idiom. it means they are the cause of humiliation of real Islam.

"A fundamentalist Muslim group that controlled much of Afghanistan from 1995 until U.S. military intervention in 2001"

Afghans had been fighting with those radicals even before any USA's intervention. moreover Taliban has still enough power to oppress people.

3)You say "those radicals are laying."
I fail to understand why you wrote that statement.Do you want to make fun of me.Are are against me because I wrote against Jizya?

oh excuse me I meant lying.

5)You say "and the existence of those murderers is itself contrary to all monotheistic religions."
But you must not forget that the Taliban fight for Allah itself.And they follow the Quran too.
I am not making this up.For proof,refer here :-

oh yes and Taliban is following Koran the same that Bush followed Bible !!!!!!!
I know how they pray for God and then behead innocent people ! and how they suicide bombing here and there for the sake of God !!!! they have killed many of our people too ! the same that what they are doing in Syria and Iraq.
you mean Koran has said them to terror innocents. I do not think so. for real muslims Koran is regarded as God's speech to Mohammad and all of it's verses should be understood with considering the purpose and situations they revealed for. what those blinded radicals are not capable to do.

edit on 6-12-2012 by maes2 because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-12-2012 by maes2 because: (no reason given)

1)

1-in that time Mohammad was a leader of a popular and legitimate government. Taliban and those radical terrorist groups are neither a government nor legitimate.

(a)What proof that you have that "Mohammad was a leader of a popular and legitimate government"?
Well here I present to you some facts which clearly explains how "legitimate" Mr Mohammad was ->
How Mohammad Butchered his enemies.
BEGINNING OF MUHAMMAD'S VIOLENCE

2)

Taliban and those radical terrorist groups are neither a government nor legitimate.

But don't you know that Taliban and other terrorists are just following Islam and Quran's teaching?
Well I already did present some links to you.But here it is again ->
Laden fought for Islam

3)

in that time there were no concept of nationality. so the minority christians and jews did not participate in wars neither for and nor against polytheists in the neighbourhood. because of such exemptions they would pay Jazia as a tax. and Muslims would pay Zakat as a tax.

(a)What proof that you have when you say "in that time there were no concept of nationality. "?
(b)What proof do you have when you say " the minority christians and jews did not participate in wars neither for and nor against polytheists in the neighbourhood. because of such exemptions they would pay Jazia as a tax. and Muslims would pay Zakat as a tax"?

reply to post by maes2


LOL you are trying to justify Jizya in the name of Zakat ???
That seems to be your plan.

4)

Mohammad was not cruel against minorities.

Firstly looking at your statement ,i have to ask you a question. do you know anything about Hinduism ,Buddhism,Paganism,Shamanism,Wicca ?

The original Pagan religions presided Islam ,Christianity and other Abrahamic religions by 1000s of years.

PAGAN Origins Of Islam

And regarding this statement refer to point 6.
5)

because monotheistic religions are all from one source and Koran declares it many times.

Again I ask you the same question ->
do you know anything about Christianity and Hinduism.
Many people consider Hinduism to be poly but it is mono but that is a different story.
This statement made me laugh so hard that I literally threw my laptop down.Sorry that was off topic.
But before stating that " monotheistic religions are all from one source" , I strongly suggest that you read about Christianity,Hinduism,Buddhism,Shamanism,Wicca. Google is your friend .

6)

the only conflict between Mohammad and other religions I can remember now is when the minority jews broke the agreement and cooperated with foreign Polytheists and that conflict ended without any bloodshed and the minority jews gave in without any war. and I can not remember any conflict between Mohammad and chiristians ! there were no conflict between them. not at all !!

Well since you say that you " can not remember any conflict between Mohammad and chiristians".
Check my post I already provided you resources about that.
Now I present you this ->
Christian genocide in Sudan
www.aljazeera.com...
How Mohammad killed Childrens
How Mohammad killed Women
How Mohammad killed Women

I guess that will be enough.

6)

I did not mean they were sheeps, black sheep was an idiom. it means they are the cause of humiliation of real Islam.

But don't the Taliban fight for Islam.
I already presented resources.Here are more ->
Al Qaeda fight for Islam .Real mission is to “incite the ummah”



7)

Afghans had been fighting with those radicals even before any USA's intervention. moreover Taliban has still enough power to oppress people.

How do you know that "Afghans had been fighting with those radicals even before any USA's intervention."??

Do you know them personally or do you have any other proof?

8)

oh excuse me I meant lying.

Thank God.I thought you were making fun of me.


9)

oh yes and Taliban is following Koran the same that Bush followed Bible !!!!!!!

Thank you for accepting the fact that they are following Quran.
Again ,how do you know that Bush followed Bible?
Do you know him personally or do you have any other proof?
Or are you trying to indirectly suggest that following the Bible is a bad thing??


10)

I know how they pray for God and then behead innocent people ! and how they suicide bombing here and there for the sake of God !!!! they have killed many of our people too ! the same that what they are doing in Syria and Iraq.

Well thanks for accepting the Facts.

11)

you mean Koran has said them to terror innocents. I do not think so. for real muslims Koran is regarded as God's speech to Mohammad and all of it's verses should be understood with considering the purpose and situations they revealed for. what those blinded radicals are not capable to do.

Your thinking that the Quran has nothing to do with violence is absolutely ignorant.
I suggest that you read the facts here ->
Verses of Violence from Quran
Quran and Violence
Cruelty and violence in the Quran (A Short List)

12

in the past when there were wars between Polytheist and Islamic government under the rule of Mohammad those minorities (christians,jews,and atheists) did not engage in wars, so Jijya was some sort of tax that the minorities would pay because of their exemptions for participating in wars or governmental issues. also there were and there are other taxes for muslims which is called Zakat

LOL again you are justify Jizya by saying that "(christians,jews,and atheists) did not engage in wars, so Jijya was some sort of tax that the minorities would pay because of their exemptions for participating in wars or governmental issues."

And here we have another justification of Jizya when you say that "also there were and there are other taxes for muslims which is called Zakat"
We are not talking about Zakat here but about Jijya but since you brought it up,it is a clear example of the fact that you are trying to justify in the name of Zakat

13)

that is not the speech of Mohammad it is regarded as speech of God to Mohammad.

Well I mentioned "Qur'an (9:29)"

14)

some rules are secondary rules in Islam and they are free to be altered according to the situation of societies. for example Jijya was a rule according to the situation of that time but nowadays nationality is an identity. so people should participate in wars and governmental issues regardless of their Ideologies and even minorities. so there is no need for taxes like Jijya. but still Muslims should pay taxes like Zakat !

And yet another blatant justification of Jizya in the name of Zakat.

And do check the thread , i posted links on how the muslims are demanding Zakat.

15)

or Islam had some rules for slavery which was a usual event in that time. among many nations.

I do not understand what this has to do with Jizya but anyway ,lets move on.

16)

what people do not pay attention is that Koran has instructed people for freeing slaves many times.

LOL we are talking about Jizya here and not about how "Koran has instructed people for freeing slaves many times".
Your claim is questionable anyway.Let's get farther.

17)

the only true Islamic government was the Government of Mohammad but after his death gradually governments changed to inheritable monarchies (contrary to Islam). moreover Taliban,AlQaeda,Saudies,..... are just some black sheeps and even their existence is contrary to Islam !!!

But they fight for Islam.I posted links.Check them up.
And here is another link describing how Muslims celebrated 9/11 ->
Muslims Celebrated 9/11

18)

Harun al-Rashid was someone like Saudies and Taliban. he was a cruel Monarchy. he did not know how to write Islam. Muslims have suffered from such dirty monarchies a lot.

Again another Justification of Jizya in this statement.
How many justifications do you want to give??

19)

as I said before those dirty monarchies (even Ottoman) were enemies of humanity they did not know how to write Islam !

BTW
Why are you taliking about Ottoman??
And why do have to know "how to write about Islam"???


20)

in the Islamic Government under the rule of Muhammad even conversion could not be a solution because if they had converted to Islam they should have payed another tax called ZAKAT and they should have participated in wars against polytheists.

Oh no another Justification.

21)

I myself prefer to remain atheist and pay Jazya in such conditions

Yes I have met many Muslims who claim that they are atheist in order to not sound that they are defending Islam.
You sound just like them.
And if you are atheist,why do you "prefer to pay Jizya"??

22)

so world has changed and the secondary laws of Islam (those that are related to governing like taxes, trading and ...) can change as well.

Well the world has changed.
But unfortunately not Islam .


Oops .
Was it too long??
Well the truth has to come out so I don't care how long it was.

Yet again I ask you,
anything more?

The answer will be simple for me. Some people here tend to think or judge that islam is so bad, a plague that should be treated. After lots of explaining some people would just have their own opinion and so be it.

So islam is bad, barbaric, need to be destroy along with the one who practice it. And not good for humanity. So what these people gonna do now. Should they start to make this world better by eradicate muslim and islam and promote their view whatever it is.

Meanwhile i will believe what i believe and will practice what i usually did. Your move now....

Originally posted by maung
Some people here tend to think or judge that islam is so bad, a plague that should be treated.

Any religion that demands people either convert to their beliefs or 'pay a tax' (or even die) IS A PLAGUE on the world. That is anti-freedom and it's dragging the world down.

So islam is bad, barbaric, need to be destroy along with the one who practice it. And not good for humanity. So what these people gonna do now.

Not 'destroy muslims' but try to educate the poor souls who are stuck in Islam ... educate them about what real freedom is ... educate them that they HAVE NO RIGHT to push their beliefs on those of us who don't buy it .. educate them that they HAVE NO RIGHT to dictate what a woman can or can't wear ... educate them that the world doesn't want to be dragged back 1500 years and that is what their Sharia law system would cause to happen ... educate them so they'll leave the rest of the planet alone ...

reply to post by FlyersFan


What you said is 100 % correct.
Nobody wants to 'destroy' Islam as some people think.
The only thing that is required is proper education so that both the Muslims and people from other religions can live in peace.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Any religion that demands people either convert to their beliefs or 'pay a tax' (or even die) IS A PLAGUE on the world. That is anti-freedom and it's dragging the world down.

All the goverment in the world demand the citizen to pay tax and it is a fact not a theory, while i dont know any society or country now demand to convert to islam or pay jizya or capital punishment. Should we destroy all the gov then.

Not 'destroy muslims' but try to educate the poor souls who are stuck in Islam ... educate them about what real freedom is ... educate them that they HAVE NO RIGHT to push their beliefs on those of us who don't buy it .. educate them that they HAVE NO RIGHT to dictate what a woman can or can't wear ... educate them that the world doesn't want to be dragged back 1500 years and that is what their Sharia law system would cause to happen ... educate them so they'll leave the rest of the planet alone ...

edit on 12/7/2012 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

A strange way to educate "poor souls" indeed if with attacking and mocking without know enough about islam. The way to educate "us" about what freedom is and is kind like "you" got the right to push your beliefs on "us" saying it is "us" who keep doing this. And if this is trully happened as daily believe, im sure lots of muslim country or country with muslim majority already launch attack, but it was the opposite from what i know till these days. My country was invaded for 350 years in the name of gold, glory and gospel, just because we rich of spices and herbs and need to be "enlighten". Is it a right thing or not?, but if it is not im sure someone already apologized to us and in this case it never happened.

From what i know, most society in the world still dictate what a woman and even a man can or cant wear. Try to wear a tinny panties around europe or US and see where it will get accepted. Those place supposed to be have more freedom.
People will argue about in what extend it is acceptable, but this is always round and round in everytime where the limit is. Primitive tribe wear almost nothing and the modern civilization that "make" them wear more. Infact lots of fashion from many country that is part of them culture are not acceptable in "formal events" internationally, and even corporate events.Dress suit is a formal wear these days and it is not everyone culture.

In other way, not many people know what sharia law is. Most educated muslim know there will be no sharia law with full support from all muslim just because of sectarian inside islam and only a society with only 1 sect will be able to use sharia law. There will be lots of differences, and that is why hardly we can find a country with sharia law implemented even the number of muslim is around 1,6 billion. We try to make other understand the truth, but it is always the non muslim who know the most.

Btw you said poor souls.Do you know what soul is? Have you seen it? have you saw yours? Do you know the different between souls and the unseen? When you say poor souls, it should mean you know it very clearly any of those. And you know how it looks and how condition of poor souls is, and there you should start find someone to educate if you know how to educate someone souls to be better.

reply to post by Expat888


Hi I am a strong follower of Buddhism and Hinduism spirituality too.
Maybe you do not know how Muslims are destroying Buddhist and Hindu temples in Bangladesh and forcing them to either convert or leave.







Muslims destroy Buddhist temples and threaten Buddhists

Originally posted by maung
A strange way to educate "poor souls" indeed if with attacking and mocking without know enough about islam.

Telling the truth isn't 'attacking or mocking' .. it's just telling the truth.

.Do you know what soul is? .

Probably a lot better than you do.

Originally posted by svmpua
I am a strong follower of Buddhism and Hinduism spirituality too.

I greatly enjoy reading on Buddhism and have attempted to put some of the beliefs into practice. I'm not doing a great job of it .. but I'm trying. The 'middle way' is really hard. It goes against my grain ...

Maybe you do not know how Muslims are destroying Buddhist and Hindu temples in Bangladesh and forcing them to either convert or leave.

I'm glad you brought that up!

There are some Islam apologists on here who sugar coat what is done in the name of islam .. and totally deny that women are treated like dirt. They lie and claim that Islam just loves other religions but then they turn a blind eye to what Saudi Arabia does to non-muslims, and turn a blind eye to ancient statues being blown up, and turn a blind eye to people like the Christian pastor in Iran who is sentenced to death for not converting to Islam.

reply to post by maung


1)

All the goverment in the world demand the citizen to pay tax and it is a fact not a theory, while i dont know any society or country now demand to convert to islam or pay jizya or capital punishment. Should we destroy all the gov then.

"All the goverment in the world demand the citizen to pay tax and it is a fact not a theory"
All the government demand taxes irrespective of the citizens religious background.

"while i dont know any society or country now demand to convert to islam or pay jizya or capital punishment. Should we destroy all the gov then."
Yes I am sure that you dont know "any society or country now demand to convert to islam or pay jizya".
That is the reason I provided you the links in the thread which says how they are demanding Jizya from Christians,Sikhs and Hindus.

2)

From what i know, most society in the world still dictate what a woman and even a man can or cant wear. Try to wear a tinny panties around europe or US and see where it will get accepted. Those place supposed to be have more freedom.

"From what i know, most society in the world still dictate what a woman and even a man can or cant wear."
Well NO religion except Islam dictates what women can women can wear.
Here I present you proof ->

Islam demands that women be covered

3)

Try to wear a tinny panties around europe or US and see where it will get accepted. Those place supposed to be have more freedom.

Not sure what Panty has to do here.
But I can tell you that I have been in Europe for more than 10 years and as far as I know the most extreme that will happen is that you will get a warning from a civil commission.

However ,
Try wearing Panties and walk in the streets of Iran and post results.

4)

People will argue about in what extend it is acceptable, but this is always round and round in everytime where the limit is. Primitive tribe wear almost nothing and the modern civilization that "make" them wear more. Infact lots of fashion from many country that is part of them culture are not acceptable in "formal events" internationally, and even corporate events.Dress suit is a formal wear these days and it is not everyone culture.

Again I have no idea what Jizya has to do with it .

But since you said "are not acceptable" ,Let me tell you that "being not acceptable" and "dictating " are two different things .

5)

In other way, not many people know what sharia law is. Most educated muslim know there will be no sharia law with full support from all muslim just because of sectarian inside islam and only a society with only 1 sect will be able to use sharia law. There will be lots of differences, and that is why hardly we can find a country with sharia law implemented even the number of muslim is around 1,6 billion. We try to make other understand the truth, but it is always the non muslim who know the most.

LOL look at this ->
Sharia demand in Egypt
Muslims Destroy Dozens of Churches In Tanzania, Demand Sharia

reply to post by maung


What do you want to tell.Can you state it clearly?

Originally posted by svmpua
reply to post by maung

 

What do you want to tell.Can you state it clearly?

edit on 7-12-2012 by svmpua because: (no reason given)

I explain it clearly in the begining. So many twisted understanding about islam including in here, but when some muslim explain, it always the non muslim know it better, picking some case from not objective media.

But let put all of those behind, just say that islam and muslim is as bad as all the "proof" you gave and what some people think in here.

For sure we wont change just like that. And if muslim and islam is a threat to humanity, so bad and so barbaric, so what you gonna do as civilize person. At least you can start a campaign for banning islam and eradicate muslim after that.

It is that clear, what you gonna do then knowing we wont change???
And what you going to use as a good value sample to measure how bad we are?

To be even more clear, if people already sure 100% how bad islam and muslim is, why not start act doing something, not debating without an end endlessly? Stop islam and muslim with all the cost?? Invade??

reply to post by maung


This is the problem,dear.

We do not want to 'destroy' Islam.
We just want to put some bad laws and domination out of the Quran.

For example->
Jizya,sharia,jihad etc.
These are all the bad examples of Islam.People from other religions are getting killed everyday because of these Jihad,Sharia etc.

Do you want to know why people from other religions hate Islam so much?
It is because of these things.You people always want to establish Sharia,Jihad etc.
So people from other religions have no choice but to defend or get killed.

Do you get it now?What I have said is 100 % correct

As long as Sharia,Jihad etc are practiced by Muslims,there can be no peace on earth.
So either abandon Jihad,sharia and leave in peace
or
Keep killing and get killed.

The choice is simple.