Could Atheism be technically considered a religion?

If I had to choose a religion or belief system for our leaders to follow I would make it a prerequisite that it would be in reincarnation. It is strange that I never hear this debated much in today’s society but I have often thought that it may be the true way the universe works because it would actually follow a scientific principle which energy cannot be created or destroyed but merely changed. It actually makes sense. It would have the quality you seem to be looking for which is a reward or punishment system and I think it is a much kinder way to view the universe. As far as I know the concept predates most religion as well.

It makes you think about things a bit.

I believe this World would be a better place if the Abrahamic religions were completely eradicated That's what I mean when I say I am anti-theist. Text

correct, i knew this, because per my very first comment in this thread, i believe most atheists are just anti catholics. catholicism introduced abraham to the world, not jews, nor muslims. if they hadn't spread the bible all over the planet by force, no one would know about abe, cause the jews are pretty low key on the subject and the muslims would've had no big enemy to combat, and would likely still be pagans today.

i completely understand why people view the abrahamic religions as they do. the bible is a complicated and horrific history of the planet, interspersed with moments of compassion and brilliance, and some head scratching strangeness. but i believe it is the real history. i don't think anyone with an ounce of sense, would deliberately write about such huge mistakes otherwise, and by that i mean, they even knew the mistakes were mistakes when they made them. yeah they bragged about their military victories but then so did the pharaohs and the emperors of china and the kings of europe and presidents of the usa, heck even the kremlin.

not justifying it, that's for darn sure. just pointing out, it's a history. an ugly history but a history just the same. we need to keep those books available so we can learn from the mistakes, not hide them or edit them out of existence. and let's face it, jesus changed the world (would've changed it more but it took nearly 2000 years for people to realize he said women and men were equal and slavery was abolished as far as he was concerned. doh. one big reason why it was hidden from everyone for 1500 years and then when it finally got into print in other languages the cat was outta the bag. so then it was...eek, we won't be able to justify slavery or oppression of women, let's convince people it's not real lol that's how i see it anyway)

reply to post by undo

correct, i knew this, because per my very first comment in this thread, i believe most atheists are just anti catholics.

I am not an atheist. I just said that.....

Another very common thing I see in religious threads. You either belong to these main religions or you're an atheist. They can't accept you as anything else. How else is it explained? I have said that like 7 times now in this thread, and in that very paragraph you quoted. Venting a little frustration here. Don't worry about it.

Now..

If Christ had never been born. If Catholicism had never been. I would still be against dogmatic religion.

Most atheists are just anti catholic?? Atheists disbelieve in God. Period. What you are trying to say, but using the wrong terms, is that anti-theists are mostly anti-Catholic. That's another thread.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by undo

 

correct, i knew this, because per my very first comment in this thread, i believe most atheists are just anti catholics.

I am not an atheist. I just said that.....

Another very common thing I see in religious threads. You either belong to these main religions or you're an atheist. They can't accept you as anything else. How else is it explained? I have said that like 7 times now in this thread, and in that very paragraph you quoted. Venting a little frustration here. Don't worry about it.

Now..

If Christ had never been born. If Catholicism had never been. I would still be against dogmatic religion.

Most atheists are just anti catholic?? Atheists disbelieve in God. Period. What you are trying to say, but using the wrong terms, is that anti-theists are mostly anti-Catholic. That's another thread.

nitpicky. lol
i guess i didn't notice you saying you weren't an atheist. what is ya?
i'm not in a religion other than to say, i'm a huge fan of jesus. and i have studied the bible, as well as other ancient histories, quite a bit.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
If I had to choose a religion or belief system for our leaders to follow I would make it a prerequisite that it would be in reincarnation. It is strange that I never hear this debated much in today’s society but I have often thought that it may be the true way the universe works because it would actually follow a scientific principle which energy cannot be created or destroyed but merely changed. It actually makes sense. It would have the quality you seem to be looking for which is a reward or punishment system and I think it is a much kinder way to view the universe. As far as I know the concept predates most religion as well.

It makes you think about things a bit.

i read once that the buddha said that he had come back in that particular avatar to end the cycle of reincarnation. he apparently felt it was horrible. not sure where i read that. but i guess the idea was, that if the universe was that difficult to please, the amount of suffering the person would have to endure thru multiple reincarnations is not something you would want to wish on your worst enemy. i think he's right.

reply to post by undo

i completely understand why people view the abrahamic religions as they do. the bible is a complicated and horrific history of the planet, interspersed with moments of compassion and brilliance, and some head scratching strangeness. but i believe it is the real history.

I am not against the idea of the Bible being an historical account in one sense or another. Not at all. This is now getting off topic, but I would argue that in no way lends credence to the idea it was authored (divinely inspired) by the creator of existence.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by undo

 

i completely understand why people view the abrahamic religions as they do. the bible is a complicated and horrific history of the planet, interspersed with moments of compassion and brilliance, and some head scratching strangeness. but i believe it is the real history.

I am not against the idea of the Bible being an historical account in one sense or another. Not at all. This is now getting off topic, but I would argue that in no way lends credence to the idea it was authored (divinely inspired) by the creator of existence.

edit on 6-12-2012 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

where does it say it was authored by god ? this may be another "catholicism" by proxy. what i mean by that is, they taught certain things about the bible, which ended up in some cases, in protestant teachings later. i mean they had some hard core scholars. they were nothing to sneeze at. they knew multiple languages and could speak and write them too. certainly some of the better educated people of their time (although that's not saying much since a better part of it was the dark ages).

i've worked so hard in this thread and i'm not getting any stars at all. i feel neglected.

reply to post by undo

nitpicky. lol
i guess i didn't notice you saying you weren't an atheist. what is ya?
i'm not in a religion other than to say, i'm a huge fan of jesus. and i have studied the bible, as well as other ancient histories, quite a bit.

It was literally right under what you C&P'd :p

It would be like you saying you're Catholic for example, and I continued to insist you're a Mormon

I am a deist. I have 'God' belief, but am against dogmatic religions. In a very brief nutshell.

I am familiar with your interest in religion and ancient history. I've been a reader of ATS since 2003, and I have read many many posts of yours throughout my stay I have read and studied religion as well.

i've worked so hard in this thread and i'm not getting any stars at all. i feel neglected.

As I said before your posts are usually very interesting I can't star these posts when I see you connecting things to atheism I don't believe should be. I can only speak for myself of course, but maybe that's a part of it. I appreciate your posts.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by undo

 

nitpicky. lol
i guess i didn't notice you saying you weren't an atheist. what is ya?
i'm not in a religion other than to say, i'm a huge fan of jesus. and i have studied the bible, as well as other ancient histories, quite a bit.

It was literally right under what you C&P'd :p

It would be like you saying you're Catholic for example, and I continued to insist you're a Mormon

I am a deist. I have 'God' belief, but am against dogmatic religions. In a very brief nutshell.

I am familiar with your interest in religion and ancient history. I've been a reader of ATS since 2003, and I have read many many posts of yours throughout my stay

I have read and studied religion as well.

ahh yes. i tend to have better conversations with deists. i think anonymous is about to mix it up alot. people think the wreath around their iconic figure of the headless man with a question mark for a head, is a symbol of the UN. it is not. just as the guy fawkes mask suggests, it's the symbol of the holy roman empire. yeah, the vatican. things are about to get really crazy from what i've seen on ats and youtube. hold onto your hats.

reply to post by undo

the amount of suffering the person would have to endure thru multiple reincarnations is not something you would want to wish on your worst enemy. i think he's right.

You are right religions do have a cruel and unusual punishment aspect to them however enduring reincarnations is not even close to the descriptions of hell so I find that this aspect is much kinder as well as realistic.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by undo

 

the amount of suffering the person would have to endure thru multiple reincarnations is not something you would want to wish on your worst enemy. i think he's right.

You are right religions do have a cruel and unusual punishment aspect to them however enduring reincarnations is not even close to the descriptions of hell so I find that this aspect is much kinder as well as realistic.

speak for yourself (don't watch this if you're squeamish)

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by Pixiefyre

 

So would you say it was the nature of the society’s that made the difference in those areas the conviction of their faith? What do you think made the difference in the overall attitude between those places and people?

That is something I can't give you a solid answer on. I don't know if it is because I grew up in a small farm town, or that people have really changed as much as it seems to me, but despite the bad experiences after that awesome pastor I was lucky to know, it seems like people are becoming more and more militant regarding religion rather than reaching out and using kindness and support to attempt to convert non-believers, it appears that so many are more interested in forcing non-believers to act like believers so the believers won't have to confront anything that is discomforting, which by the way is completely opposite from what Jesus taught his disciples in the New Testament (central to Christianity is the belief in the New Testament). You can catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar.

When I was growing up it just wasn't an issue, what religion you followed or if you didn't. My folks were Christians but barely ever attended church other than times when we sang as a family for the congregation or weddings and funerals. While they didn't preach or attend church regularly, (they had a band btw) they would perform for charities and benefits, They were very involved in activities that directly helped other people. And although we were not wealthy, if my father became aware that someone was short on funds for groceries or medicine he would go out and buy them some food, or the medicine they needed. Although my father grew up in the south, he did not fit the stereotypical racist image attributed to southerners during the civil rights era and race riots, he didn't care what color a persons skin was, whether they were rich or poor, he respected all people equally and based on the same values, a person no matter how uneducated or menial the job they performed he respected, because they were doing it to take care of their family

On the other hand I saw people in church every Sunday with their Sunday best on, making sure everyone saw them and heard them, then once the services were over they looked down their noses at those poorer then them, they couldn't be bothered to offer to help someone change a tire or even offer shoulder to cry on. So long as they attended Church every Sunday I guess they felt that they had fulfilled their duty to obtain a free pass to heaven.

I do think society play's it's part of course, I hate to say this but there is an element of self-righteousness .that appears rather wide spread. I've seen people granted respect and gather significant numbers of followers because they claimed their motives were based on their Christian beliefs, but when I confronted them with their methods going against the New Testament teachings, and even lying about incidences where supposed Christians were arrested for "supposedly quietly praying" presenting them with the court documents showing the Christians own video documentation of their actions showed them up in peoples faces telling them they were going to hell, drowning out the message of the group holding the event using bullhorns and refusing to comply with police orders to relocate, verbally and physically, that didn't matter and at least 3 groups I know tied to one another and sharing such articles, didn't care about the truth as I shared the same facts with them, they just wanted to use the elevated status or self righteousness that many seem to grant those who claim faith in Christianity no matter what their actions, to force their will upon others. Falsifying the facts so as to claim that religion was under attack, thus hitting Christians with an emotionally charged but false reason to join them. (Christians should recall Jesus warnings regarding false prophets) People feel strong and just when they are part of a large group so yeah society has a part in this.

I think growing up in a small farming town back in a time at least there, where people really were not so concerned about who didn't attend church or proclaim faith in a specific religious belief system, they were more concerned about taking care of themselves and their families and in some cases, many cases anyone else in need, promoted a much happier environment.

Wisdom from the past:

I have never been able to conceive how any rational being could propose happiness to himself from the exercise of power over others." --Thomas Jefferson to A. L. C. Destutt de Tracy, 1811. ME 13:18

No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Gilmer, 1816. ME 15:24

reply to post by Pixiefyre

so the believers won't have to confront anything that is discomforting,

can you explain this comment? cause to be honest, i've had enough discomfort to last many people's lifetimes. i'm getting real tired of seeing comments that suggest this path is some pampered cake walk, cause it hasn't been so for me nor my family members.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
If I had to choose a religion or belief system for our leaders to follow I would make it a prerequisite that it would be in reincarnation.

I can see your point regarding reincarnation..living over and over until you get it right

Have you ever heard of the 3 fold rule which is part of Wiccan and Pagan belief systems?

It is a rule that states that whatever good or harm you do will be returned three-fold to you. Not sometime in the after life, but any time after you perform either good or harm, right here in this life such will come back to you 3 times as good....or harmful.

I've always thought that this rule is far more effective as a means of deterring people from causing harm to others, if you are going to be subjected to 3x the harm you sent out...not sometime after you have left this life but today, tomorrow, next week it would tend to have a chilling effect on any act of harm. Besides the issue of reaping 3x what you sew hanging over your head, unlike the Judea-Christian religions one does not have the option of inflicting grievous harm upon others throughout their life then on their deathbed begging forgiveness, accepting the lord and going to heaven despite it all. That's not much of a deterrent.

right here in this life such will come back to you 3 times as good....or harmful.

to me that sounds like anybody who is suffering is automatically deemed worthy of it. not sure how that works cause it doesn't match up with reality.

unlike the Judea-Christian religions one does not have the option of inflicting grievous harm upon others throughout their life then on their deathbed begging forgiveness, accepting the lord and going to heaven despite it all. That's not much of a deterrent.

the premise of jesus in that example is, the deck is stacked against everybody anyway. that's why he keeps saying none are worthy, all have fallen short. for example, let's say you're born with genetic abnormality that causes you to have bipolar syndrome or schizophrenia. is that your fault? nope. you didn't do a thing to cause that. it's because the natural world is imperfect. beautiful but also grotesque. happy but also sad. it's only partially functional.

so are you worthy of 3x the punishment for something you didn't have any control over? should we punish fat people 3x as much or gay people or people who have turets syndrome (uncontrollable cursing) ?

sorry, i have been over all this with people who think we should be harder on gay people, and i'm like........how's that any different than say, not obeying your parents, eating too much, cheating, lying, etc? 3x as much? i don't think so.

reply to post by Pixiefyre


Wow great posts. I hope you don’t mind but it sounds like you can attribute your positive and open minded experience a lot on having a good family. I do understand what you are saying and can relate in my own way. Even though I have either been Atheist, agnostic, or agnostic atheist all my life because of the ridicule that goes with being a heathen I have often in life when asked said I was Christian to avoid such things that go along with being labeled. I grew up in the Bible belt from N.C. to Mississippi to here in Florida and I had great parents. Anyway sometimes parents of friends would say I was such a good Christian I am just glad there were so many churches around that the question never really came up about which one I went to. I didn’t set foot in one till my 30s.

I have never really heard of the 3 fold rule but it sounds like the same concept as Karma which I am not really sure how I feel about it. I think it ties into reincarnation nicely though.

Originally posted by ProfessorChaos
I just find it interesting that an Atheist can say that they have no religion or faith, but they cling almost fanatically to evolutionary science during discussions, much like a christian will cling to the Bible, or a Muslim to the Quran.

Isn't that essentially the same kind of behavior?

Yes, I agree both atheist and religious people are blindly taking a leap of faith on opposite sides of the spectrum and somewhat lying to themselves. Agnostic are the only ones that are truthful to themselves and acknowledge their is not enough facts,evidence,nor understanding of the world to conclude either way.

However, I would not be surprised that most atheist are really Agnostic atheist. Meaning that they realize that their is no evidence either-way but at the same time they find fewer evidence supporting a believe in God or religion.

I also think that you will find fewer atheist accepting that no Gods exist as a fact versus religious people that accept God existing as a fact.

Originally posted by interupt42
However, I would not be surprised that most atheist are really Agnostic atheist. Meaning that they realize that their is no evidence either-way but at the same time they find fewer evidence supporting a believe in God or religion.

Exactly. For practical sense I am atheist but if I need to be precise about the knowledge I am agnostic, the same way I am agnostic about unicorns, dragons, bigfoot, flying spaghetti monster, santa klaus etc..