1984 Discussion Group.

It's time to discuss in full all the fine points of 1984, and the meanings, implications, and lastly but not the least, correlation to today's society.

For those of you who need to view more of 1984...here is the book

www.online-literature.com...

This should be the entire book.

Now first, why don't we begin with the general structure of Ingsoc, and what it relates to.

I've often thought of 1984 as Pro-Communist while Animal Farm as Anti-Communist.

Reason is because of the Proles.

The Proles I feel are a sure sign that 1984 is a "capitalist" society.

Where the "lower party" members are the middle class people, who can sway opinions but never do because their lives are just spiffy.

The Upper Party members make the real decisions, and the Proles do nothing because they are too busy with their own ignorant problems.

Just like Gangs in inner-city America.

A fascinating topic: I'd recommend anyone coming to it, relatively afresh, to read "Homage to catalonia": a record of Orwell's time in the Spanish Civil War, and Burmese days: his time as an Imperial Civil servant in what was technically then part of India: to get his thinking on either end of the spectrum of the all-powerful state machine.

i found this link sort of interesting. It sort of shows how 1984 relates to what is happening now.

Ingsoc condition alert system

Orwell originally wante tocall it "1948", but was dissuaded by his publishers.
This is some sort of clue to his thinking post W.W.II. For him, this new world was not very far away.

i have never read 1984, but i am going to buy it..

Originally posted by The Blade Runner
i have never read 1984, but i am going to buy it..

youre kidding! that is one of my favorite books.We were assigned it in one of my English classes. I was in a class with a bunch of morons and was one of 2 or 3 that read it hah.

[Edited on 3-5-2003 by mirrorsparadise]

unfortunately my english class didnt teach me much, i got taught how to read and write that was about all i learned in english..

Originally posted by The Blade Runner
unfortunately my english class didnt teach me much, i got taught how to read and write that was about all i learned in english..

When I was attending schools in Mississippi it was just as bad... luckily I moved. To Alabama. haha. Their school system still beats that of MS..

When I was attending schools in Mississippi it was just as bad... luckily I moved. To Alabama. haha. Their school system still beats that of MS.. Posted by Mirrorsparadise

As one who grew up in and around Louisiana, there is one very true saying "Louisiana cant be that bad... at least we ain't Mississippi!"

But, as pertains to the correlations between what was written in 1984 by George Orwell and today, take a look at what we have today, vs what was written in the book:

Security cameras all over the place (similar to the Telescreens in the book)

Facial recognition software

Automated vehicular tracking equipment (OnStar, LowJack, ect)

Personal tracking systems (RFID tags in most clothing sold now, also mini RFIDs implanted in your skin when you recieve vaccinations in the military)

NO MORE PRIVACY (ability to track you movements and purchases using credit cards, as well as tracking your movements online using echelon/carnivore, NSA phone tracking, ect)

Mind Control (HAARP)

Media Manipulation (all you have to do is turn on the TV)

Just to name a few...

Excellent discussion topic and one close my heart.

Where to start.......

Main Course.

Perpetual war used as an instrument to maintain order amoungst general public.

Recipe:

1/Take one society and emerse it in war with an easily discernable foe.Use lots of lemon,the more bitter the dish the more credible.

2/Stir a fifth Column aggressively into the bloody mix.
A good tip here is to use eastern spices as they are so recognisable and are immediately detected by even the most uneducated palate.

Pre-heat the oven for at least 5 decades then roast.The mixture will begin to rise almost immediately but baste regularly never the less.

Using these most basic ingredients and techniques we have a main course that will dominate any social gathering of any size from a small village to a large country.

Serve with anything really.Failing hospitals and a crumbling educational infastructure are hidden by the overwhelming flavours and aromas of the main dish.

Buurrrrrp!!!!
Don't know about you but I'm full................
............I'm going for a lie down.....

my favourite part is how.. to the people on the inside (ie. not the reader or winston for 9/10 of the book) A dystopia and a Utpoia appear THE SAME.
only the outsider sees a difference.

Reading 1984 was required reading in my high school days also, which was more years ago than yours truly cares to remember (I saw JFK in person when he was running for president). Basically Orwell was concerned about any socialist society getting out of control. You must remember that 1984 was written in 1944 during WW2. Orwell did forsee the use of technology as a tool for suppression of the people (camera in everyone's house). Of course, Orwell did not forsee computers, credit cards with smart chips, or systems that could automatically monitor communications. I wonder what he would do with that if he were alive today and were to rewrite 1984. Interesting that someone mentioned how bad the education system was in their state. It seems strange that since there is now a federal Department of Education, the quality or education has gotten worse. When yours truly went to high school (yeah - we carried clubs and rode dinosaurs), education was handled by the state and the local school board. Everybody who graduated in my class could at least read a newspaper and do simple math which seems to be more than what is happening now. Perhaps a tie in with a 1984 scenario? Dumb down the general population and educate only an elite few. As far as loss of privacy because of credit card use, you still use them don't you? Here is one reason why governments can set up repressive measures. People get used to using something because it is so convenient knowing that they are creating a situation that can be abused. Oppressive governments have always relied on people's ignorance and apathy. If you want some interesting ideas, read my last post in "Freedom a'int what is used to be" in the Web Related Section.

Perceptive points my dear Jgd-Fl.,
I always thought Orwell was uncannily prophetic when he saw the potential of the helicopter (the Thought Police hover in them, as you'll recall, and the movies are shot from them).
Also: the fake life of Comrade Ogilvy is not without relevance.
This thread is in spasm, at present - lacking evidence at times of posters' having read the book -but it's potentially a first rate one.
As for what you say about Western public education: never has so much been spent by so few for even fewer's benefit.
This is the new dark Age: neon-lit.

I'm sure you guys heard about the list of words that are to be deleted from school books in California because they are not appropriate. I mean some really horrible words, such as "Founding Father". You may not pray anywhere around the Supreme Court. A group of four women were praying outside the Supreme Court, praying that God give the court members strength and wisdom, and they were commanded by the police to cease at once. Had they not obeyed, they'd have been carted off to the jailhouse. Oh, yeah, but a group of several hundred is allowed to snarl traffic and break public and private property in Seattle with minimum police intervention.

Things are going along as planned.

Apt point, Thomas: the control of expression, the essence of Newspeak.
You may well ahve read them -but, if not, Orwell's essays are available under the US imprint of Penguin and well worth reading on the topic of language-control. And remember, he wrote at a time when even a poor elementary school leaver had more knowledge of language than most undergraduates today.
I don't know if it applies to the US but I've often found amongst elderly relatives in England (none of whom attended school after 14) that their standards of written English are way beyond those of today's youngsters.

I hadn't encountered your Supreme Court reference, T-C: this out-Herods Herod.
America has more to fear from this than all the SCUD's Saddam could ever have acquired.
doubleplus-bl**y -ungood.
This is Fascism ( true Fascism) in the guise of caring popularism: Freedom is Slavery.

I would suggest the closest that we have in modern context to 1984 would be the movie "Enemy of the State". It certainly showcases the potential for abuse of modern technology, and just how vulnerable the average person is in the electronic age to invasion of privacy.

I find this movie particularly scary because is it 100% viable and correct.

Interesting note about how education has changed over the years. When I went to high school (we really did not ride diosaurs, we only had to carry flint lock rifles
to fight off the indians, oops native americans), there was a boy named Wendell. I remeber Wendell riding the school bus one day and when he arrived at school, he voted. In those days you had to be 21 to vote. Yep Wendell was old enough to vote and was still attending high school. However when he did graduate, he could at least read a book. Wendell was in the same English class as me and you could see that he could get the gist of most of what he read. I remember now that when we read 1984, Wendell must have read all of it, because he said in class that it was the scariest thing he had ever read. One English teachers was Jewish and her husband fought in WW2 against the Germans. They were both sensitive to the holocaust since both had lost european relatives in the camps. Mrs. Weber was her name and she wanted to impart on us the nature how fascism works. One point she made was that the Nazis usually started by destroying the rights of the unpopular segments of society (sex offenders, communists, etc.) and then gradually extended that to others (sounds familar?). Another point I grew up a atheist (not on now) and every day I said the Lord's Prayer and the Plegde of Allegiance to the Flag (with "under God" ) and never felt that it was such a great impingement on my rights. It was just another thing you did at the beginning of the school day. The ACLU is making such a big deal over such trivial garbage while ignoring really important assualts on our rights.
When you not doing anything else do a google search on Stogner v California. This currently before the supreme court. Working one a post dealing with economic warfare as a means of oppression and should have it done tomorrow.

[Edited on 5-5-2003 by jagdflieger]