God is Not a Person

As the thread progresses, I want to THANK EVERYONE who participated......and continues to do so
I'm certainly up for continuing the discussion;

I've so much appreciated the thought-provoking and inspiring contributions....

As we charge ahead as the Human Race, I hope there are more opportunities to discuss these issues in a civil, educated manner.

Cheers, everyone!!!!
~wild

reply to post by wildtimes


You're absolutely welcome. I very much enjoy these kind of discussions.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

So then why is he always portrayed as having an anthropomorphic character? Thinks like a man, feels like a man, makes threats like a man...an old Roman tyrant, at that.

Obviously that is an inaccurate description, and I would guess you got that from the Old Testament.
The New Testament version is a little different from that older version, and does not describe God as if he was a bad human.

So, if everything was known in the space of a second, every blade of grass and every human and every little breeze, everything from A to Z that ever existed and ever will exist, their entire existence intimately witnessed from the first molecule's birth to the last molecule's death...then forever is a lot shorter than I imagined. Is your "God" so hyper that he can't sit and watch the entire lifespan of this universe longer than it takes to blink? And since he knows every choice he will ever make, he's essentially watching a movie that he wrote, filmed, and produced all on his own. He sets it up, puts it in motion and stands back.

You believe in an evil God, I don't.
I find no reason to believe in your description of God, all powerful and all knowing, it's just ridiculous. Such a God would by definition be evil. Is that who is your God? I feel sorry for you.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Obviously that is an inaccurate description, and I would guess you got that from the Old Testament.
The New Testament version is a little different from that older version, and does not describe God as if he was a bad human.

So if the OT does describe him that way, and the NT doesn't...makes me think some changes were made. THat's more than a little suspicious. Maybe they thought we would pick up on that. Maybe they figured we would notice the old man isn't as nice as he claims.

If it changes, it isn't the truth, and both versions are subject to intense scrutiny. Which is false? Which is accurate? There's more reason to lie about him being kind and compassionate than there is to lie about him being a cold tyrant. Do you trust the owners of this legend to ignore that? To you trust them to resist that? Controlling how people think is a tremendous power. Do you think they are strong enough to resist?

They are humans. They are just as vulnerable to the terrors of this world as we are. Are they strong enough to resist using such power to their advantage? I don't think so.

You believe in an evil God, I don't.
I find no reason to believe in your description of God, all powerful and all knowing, it's just ridiculous. Such a God would by definition be evil. Is that who is your God? I feel sorry for you.

No, no. I don't believe in an evil god. Because of what I have observed, it is precisely because of his nature that I don't believe in him. As I have stated repeatedly, this does not mean I do not believe in a divine principle. It just doesn't answer to the name you have given it.

Christians believe their god is all knowing and all powerful. Are you saying this is incorrect?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Maybe they thought we would pick up on that.

A lot of the early Christian converts were Jews, so it would not have been beneficial to the cause to alienate a whole group of people who were raised to believe the OT was somehow the word of God.
I believe in Jesus, and he did have the knowledge of the real God, and His spirit, and gave that spirit to the Apostles to found the church, including producing the New Testament.
The OT was prone to manipulation and it was, up until a final version was made by the Jews in the Fourth Century AD.

Christians believe their god is all knowing and all powerful. Are you saying this is incorrect?

Yes. All that was made up in Medieval times and is not from the Bible. The OT god was a tribal deity of Canaan.

reply to post by jmdewey60


That's awesome. Now substantiate your beliefs without using Bible quotes.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I believe in Jesus, and he did have the knowledge of the real God, and His spirit, and gave that spirit to the Apostles to found the church, including producing the New Testament.
The OT was prone to manipulation and it was, up until a final version was made by the Jews in the Fourth Century AD.

Quite. Good, so we've established that some of us agree that the OT was manipulated to suit the "victors" or the "conquerors" or whatever. A tribal deity. That's what I understand as well.

AFTERINFINITY WROTE:

Christians believe their god is all knowing and all powerful. Are you saying this is incorrect?

I agree with that statement. Christians do believe that; nearly to a one. Jmdewey, I'm aware that you have studied these things at a very sophisticated and scholarly level, and so when you said:

Yes. All that was made up in Medieval times and is not from the Bible. The OT god was a tribal deity of Canaan.

"All that" Medieval make-believe is what the vast majority of current practicing Christians do believe, to my knowledge. And that this all-knowing, all-powerful, overarching GOD is waiting to judge everyone and send them after a brief introduction to either a paradisaical "Heaven" to dwell forever, or the fiery pits of "Hell", therein to burn forever.

Further, many believe that while every human DESERVES this "Hell", (thanks to Adam and Eve's obstreperousness, which no living person had anything to do with)

then Jesus came and fixed it all up, BUT -- there's still the very strong possibility that he didn't fix it permanently, because "free-will" and the acts of Adam and Eve made every human sinners - incapable of good behavior -

and with no help for it (every human will SURELY fail to live up to the impossible expectations of their GOD) except OBEDIENCE to rules that men have written down, changed around, added, taken away, and revised over the millennia, and the hope that Jesus will return and save everybody.

If there are Christian sects who don't recite and believe the Nicene Creed, they are rare. Here it is as I recited it, this is the first translation of it on the wiki page link.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.[2]

There are other versions of it, but, according to this history of it (also a wiki link, which led to the above link:

The Nicene Creed has been normative for the Anglican Church, the Church of the East, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox churches, the Roman Catholic Church including the Eastern Catholic Churches, the Old Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church and many Protestant denominations, forming the eponymous mainstream definition of Christianity itself in Nicene Christianity.[2]

Hmm.
Please, jmdewey, show us where this parted company with the omniscient, all-powerful God The Father who will judge us all.

reply to post by wildtimes


That's interesting. I have never read the WHOLE Nicene Creed before. It would make an interesting thread, in itself, to ask Christians how many believe it in total.

I grew up in a fundamental Pentecostal, Assembly of God church, and Catholics weren't look on with much respect. According to my church, Catholics worshiped idols and participated in pagan practices. So they wouldn't have accepted the last part of that creed at all.

Also, according to the teachings I learned from them, God and Jesus are separate, and not one triple being, but members of a distinct "family" with God being the father/creator, Jesus being his created and begotten son, who resides in heaven along side God, and is the Prince of Earth. The "Holy Spirit" was our "telephone" line to the divine, so to speak, our cosmic cord.

They believed in the "Second Coming." Which was when Jesus would return, like a thief in the night, to kidnap his bride, (believers) according to Jewish custom. The wedding would be held in heaven, last 1000 years, (honeymoon and all I guess) while the tribulation was happening on earth.

Then the judgement and the apocalypse..............

I am constantly surprised with the wide range of dogma of Christians that post here on ATS. There are so many arguments among Christians from the name of their God to the questions of grace or deeds, physical resurrection or an allegorical spiritual resurrection.....and so on.

God and Jesus Christ point to this moment of reality.
This is where the light is. This is the presence.
Yet everyone looks for God in the past or in the future (when they think they will die).

It all points to what is really going on here.

reply to post by windword

That's interesting. I have never read the WHOLE Nicene Creed before. It would make an interesting thread, in itself, to ask Christians how many believe it in total.

I grew up in a fundamental Pentecostal, Assembly of God church, and Catholics weren't look on with much respect. According to my church, Catholics worshiped idols and participated in pagan practices. So they wouldn't have accepted the last part of that creed at all.

Thanks, I didn't know about the Pentecostal, Assembly of God stuff, either. (I grew up in the Episcopal church)...

It's a really interesting thing - I hope jmdewey will add to the mix here....
dare I say it? - I think maybe we are making progress here!!

God is actually three persons,

The Father who is the Master, that Always will be that always is and Always has been, who sent the Son, the perfect image for a human to think of the Father as, into the world to reveal His will, and from the Father and the Son emanates the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of Wisdom and Truth, the Holy Spirit is the "goddess" aspect of God, the Holy Spirit is Gods feminine side, and there are three aspects to Her as well,

The Spirit of Wisdom is Her first aspect,
and She is embodied as a concept into the Christian Church,
and She is personally embodied into the Blessed Virgin Mary,

The Father - the LORD, YHWH
The Son - Yeshua the Messiah, Jesus Christ
The Holy Spirit - the Spirit of Wisdom, Grace and Truth, embodied in the Christian Church and the Blessed Mary, ever Virgin


God bless

reply to post by wildtimes


I always see posts of yours referring to your animosty towards God due to the fact that He is going to judge you,

Have you committed deeds you feel you are deserving of damnation for?

If yes, why don't you repent?

If no, why are you so worried about judgement?

Do you not think the One who created all and owns all is capable of handing down Righteous Judgement?

Do you not think He will judge based on deeds and works and beliefs and everything else that constitutes your being?

He will not judge and condemn you for petty things,

He is Good and Righteous,

There's plenty of Hindus, Buddhists and even a few "atheists" in Paradise....

reply to post by godlover25


Really? What about El Elyon?

The Dead Sea Scroll translation of of Deuteronomy 32:8, The Song of Moses:

This is based on the traditional Hebrew text, otherwise known as the Masoretic text (MT). Now look at a much older version of this text that was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and matches the Greek Septuagint text:

"When El Elyon gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he separated the sons of men,
he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
For Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance."
fuzzyquark.comxa.com...

Additionally, it looks as if Yahweh has been smacked down by El Elyon, and sentenced to death for his bad behavior, according to Psalms 82:

1. Psalm of Asaph. God stands in the council of the gods; he judges among the gods.
2. How long will you judge unjustly, and show preference to the wicked? Selah. (Selah means "pause and pray", or take a "deep sigh")
3. Judge the poor and the orphans; do righteousness to the afflicted and dispossessed.
4. Deliver the poor and oppressed; save them from the hand of the evil.
5. They do not know and they have no understanding; they walk about in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6. I said, “You are gods, and children of Elyon, every one of you.”
7. But you will die like mortals, and fall like one of the princes.

reply to post by godlover25

I always see posts of yours referring to your animosty towards God due to the fact that He is going to judge you,

Have you committed deeds you feel you are deserving of damnation for?

If yes, why don't you repent?

If no, why are you so worried about judgement?

godlover24,
I have no animosity at all toward the GODhead in which I believe.

Have I committed deeds worthy of damnation? That is entirely dependent on who you ask. But, in my view, no! As for "repentance", I have owned my own actions, faced the consequences, and endured them. That is all that is required.

But there are billions of others who would say so, and THAT is what bothers me. I have made my peace with what I see as the Source....I am not afraid. I know in my heart that I am good enough, and worthy of love.

I am, however, SICK and TIRED of others imposing this fictitious "judgment" scenario on normal human beings. NONE OF US are perfect. I don't think threatening people with some imagined white-robed "judge man guy" whose rules are subject to change, whose moods are unpredictable, and who is unknown and unseen and apt to have "whims" of vengeance and eternal torment is anyone I want to "bow down to."

I'm tired of the tyranny and outrageous stories that are told to CHILDREN about this fabricated, imagined Judge.

reply to post by godlover25

God is actually three persons,

The Father who is the Master, that Always will be that always is and Always has been, who sent the Son, the perfect image for a human to think of the Father as, into the world to reveal His will, and from the Father and the Son emanates the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of Wisdom and Truth, the Holy Spirit is the "goddess" aspect of God, the Holy Spirit is Gods feminine side, and there are three aspects to Her as well,

God is NOT A PERSON, and not THREE PERSONS.

I congratulate you, though, for allowing (acknowledging) the feminine aspect.
I will never, ever buy in to the Trinity nonsense. GOD did not "send" anyone. Not then, nor in the future. We are what we are. It is what it is. Some humans have an ability to understand that. Others need to have it "illustrated" with ridiculous fables.

I am fully aware and in tune with my own, GOD-given birthright - that Spark of the Divine - which tells me intuitively that everything is as it should be: I am worthy, I need not fear eternal torment.

I think it's a travesty to have created this fictitious "guy in the sky" thing. It keeps people in bondage.

The only thing needed, and what I live by, is the Golden Rule. Conversely, when people act like asses, they deserve to be treated like they treat others.

reply to post by wildtimes


reply to post by godlover25



God is actually three persons,

The Father who is the Master, that Always will be that always is and Always has been, who sent the Son, the perfect image for a human to think of the Father as, into the world to reveal His will, and from the Father and the Son emanates the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of Wisdom and Truth, the Holy Spirit is the "goddess" aspect of God, the Holy Spirit is Gods feminine side, and there are three aspects to Her as well,

You got it partially right. The father aka the mind, and the holy spirit ( the soul) combine and balance in the middle to create the perfect son, or body. The holy trinity represents the three manifestations of who we are. Our feelings, our thoughts and our actions. Who we have been, who we are, and who we want to be. Maiden, Mother, and Crone. Informed wiccans should know what that is, because it was from their religion that this was taken. The very roots from which wicca sprung. The jealous brother killed his siblings in order to take control over the minds of men. I have likened it to a "Roman Empire" style of thought policing.

And in this process, they converted the three aspects into one all-powerful being. It's quite possible that even at that time, they were worshiping the future of the human race. They were worshiping a one world religion, a system by which to ensure that the people would never ascend. They would forever remain slaves, cultivated for every generation of the 1%, crafted by the previous generation.

Or perhaps they simply wanted all religions to recognize the light within each other, and work together for the best of the world. And then he realized that we were a jealous species, and so he made it all one. So that he could make sure we got the message.

Who knows? But that's all just my opinion. I've already made my argument in this matter.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Your "God" has no consciousness, not being a person,

Wait, are you implying that only PEOPLE have consciousness?

I disagree fundamentally on that one. Animals also have "consciousness"; and many feel that plants do as well...
This seems to be a very limited and narrow view of GOD, jmdewey. People are not the ultimate perfection, not even close. Ergo, God is not a person. I already said GOD is a force that we cannot understand.

Trying to give GOD a human shape and human qualities is, in my opinion, quite jejune...and inappropriate. But, that's just what my tiny indwelling Spark of God has led me to conclude.

edit on 3-12-2012 by wildtimes because: woops, not "jw", jm. jmdewey

Don't call yourself animals and plants will you.

reply to post by wildtimes

Hmm.
Please, jmdewey, show us where this parted company with the omniscient, all-powerful God The Father who will judge us all.

I belong to one of the rare sects that do not recite the Nicene Creed, so it bears no weight for me.
All it means to me is that those who recite it have sold out to a manufactured religion that goes back to Medieval superstitions.

reply to post by jmdewey60


And I agree with you!
I would really like to know the sources -- or possibly a reading list from your extensive library.

How/what are children in your tiny and rare sect taught?

reply to post by wildtimes


Yes I believe the quote goes: Belief without proof, isn't faith it's ignorance. Take it easy great thread.