Was America ever really Great?

I see a lot of the following phrases in threads around ATS: "This once great nation" "The Founding Fathers wold be rolling in their graves" "Reagan is the best US president in recent memory", and a lot of those quotes along those lines relating to the history of our Country and Politicians.

So, was this country ever great?

The Founding Fathers created a country where Africans were enslaved, beat, raped and worked to the bone and to death. And many of the founding fathers owned slaves themselves.

Women were considered property, did not have the right to vote, could not continue in education after Grammar School, they were considered basically as not having a brain, intellectually challenged, too emotional to even think about anything political.

Native Americans were slaughtered, there land taken, and pushed back onto reservations much like Israel does to Palestinians today, does the "Trail of Tears" ring a bell.

My point is that this country has a Dark History, everyone puts this country up on a Pedestal, The Shining City on the Hill. And it's not so great today, and definitely wasn't that great 200 years ago, so why do people say "Our once great nation" or "The founding fathers would be rolling in their graves" they probably would but for very different reasons.

And another thing, people love to say that President Reagan was the best president in recent memory. No, he tripled the national debt during his presidency, he raised taxes every year he was in office except for one and it was felt hardest by lower and middle income families, Iran/Contra scandal and gave Amnesty to 3 million Undocumented Immigrants. So think again before you say Reagan was great in any way.

So my question is what used to be great about this country that isn't anymore?

The only thing that is great about this country is the idea of Freedom, in the beginning it was only Freedom for some and now the whole idea of Freedom is debatable.

While you do an excellent job in highlighting every negative thing in the history of my nation, I would note that yes, America HAS been and in many ways REMAINS a great nation. It does depend on one's definition of course.

Economically, the US has been at or in the clear lead by numbers and real world presence for most of the period following World War II. Humanitarian wise, no nation on Earth comes remotely close by numbers, resources expended and actual effect on the ground than the United States in disasters world wide. Likewise, on a per nation basis, despite having lesser population and increasingly less influence as a single nation, the United States pays far more than any other nation for UN support and direct funding.

Additionally, the United States is home to things like the Centers for Disease Control, John Hopkins Medical Center and a wealth of research facilities who come out with things that insure the multiple-drug resistant infections starting to become common and beginning to actually kill people...won't remain drug resistant forever.

All in all, I firmly believe the balance has seen the United States as a net positive to the world, although I must admit you make powerful points in how an otherwise 'White Hat' for all the good the U.S. does, has some pretty rank and ugly stains across it for the evil that's been tolerated at the same time. Nothing in life is ever clean or easy to categorize, eh?

Nope. The US has treated minorities, women, and poor people like trash for most of its history. The constitution was also violated shortly after it was ratified as well.

The bankers had control of this country as soon as it was formed. Thanks to our largely corrupt founding fathers.

The Whiskey Rebellion, or Whiskey Insurrection, was a tax protest in the United States beginning in 1791, during the presidency of George Washington. Farmers who used their leftover grain and corn in the form of whiskey as a medium of exchange were forced to pay a new tax. The tax was a part of treasury secretary Alexander Hamilton's program to increase central government power, in particular to fund his policy of assuming the war debt of those states which had failed to pay. The farmers who resisted, many war veterans, were fighting for the principles of the American Revolution, in particular against taxation without local representation.

en.wikipedia.org...

There was absolutely NO time of greatness in the USA. It's always been about exploitation.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
the United States pays far more than any other nation for UN support and direct funding.

Actually we don't pay for any of that, our financier does. I don't see how we could even afford what we do here, much less everywhere else around the world.

And the question was more directed to our past, relating to people saying our once great nation, implying that it once was better than it is now, when in truth it's probably better than it once was in relation to human rights, etc.

And thanks for a thorough reply, I like that, It's getting rarer that we see thought out replies on ATS these days.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Additionally, the United States is home to things like the Centers for Disease Control, John Hopkins Medical Center and a wealth of research facilities who come out with things that insure the multiple-drug resistant infections starting to become common and beginning to actually kill people.

Yeah but the underlying reason for that is money which is why the US does anything, good or bad.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Additionally, the United States is home to things like the Centers for Disease Control, John Hopkins Medical Center and a wealth of research facilities who come out with things that insure the multiple-drug resistant infections starting to become common and beginning to actually kill people...won't remain drug resistant forever.

And you can only use those medical advancements if you have insurance! How great. Either that or be debt ridden your whole life. And even if you have insurance you can be debt ridden due to it not covering everything. The US is the only western nation that doesn't have nationalized healthcare. It also has the worst quality of care and most expensive. What good is medical research if only the privileged can use it?

Interesting replies to those points and fair to make. I disagree with the accuracy and/or perspectives but it's interesting to read the logic there. The UN issue though is a big one and one of the leading areas the US does GOOD in the world. As much as we like to rag on the UN and as much as they rightly DO deserve a vast majority of that ragging, they are also who drops bags of rice and grain into villages that have squat to eat. They're who run much of the refugee camp network world wide and do a wide variety of other things that are very much positive.

Source - UN Dispatch
(That is worth going to see....it's interactive to explain each section of the lower part of the graphic for what precisely is being done in real world outcomes for that %.)

Of course the US does much if not most of that for various forms of self interest. As does every other nation on this big rock we call home. The sheer size and complexity of the U.S. Government as the monstrosity it's become means it's very possible to have incredibly powerful positive things being done (in the national interests for what motives mean to those being helped) at the same time as outright evil things and without either touching or even being aware of the other....more often than is decent, happening in the same nations at the same time, too.


As far as saying the money going to support the UN isn't somehow from me? Well, I feel pretty screwed as it is on taxes taking something I have and consider to be of value, even if others want to theorize cash isn't. Collectively from sales tax to excise taxes to income taxes, the liability I personally pay with everyone else is obscene and it HURTS. Part of that IS what the UN is spending.....so Indeed. The US does support around 25% of the United Nations and all the good it does, as just one documented positive example of how the U.S. is still a great nation, in some important ways.

(.....and of course everyone can highlight the bad the UN does...but as noted, nothing is ever simple and I never said the system itself was great or didn't need change)

The USA is and always has been the greatest country on Earth.

To those who think otherwise you can kiss my ass.

reply to post by Uniceft17

So my question is what used to be great about this country that isn't anymore?

The idea that the constitution should be followed but isn't.
Lobbyists,corporations and politicians wipe their behinds with it like it means nothing and people allow it and then ask these questions.

America....you used to be cool,you used to be about the constitution.

Originally posted by cavalryscout
The USA is and always has been the greatest country on Earth.

To those who think otherwise you can kiss my ass.

The title goes to Britain. After all we are called GREAT Britain

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


You make good statement of WHY America is a good country now but you are missing the OP's question..

what USED to be great about this country that isn't ANYMORE?

I think mainly for conservative who has the "we want the good ol days back" attitude. Of course they would, they had more control then.

reply to post by Uniceft17


america was great before the english and spanish settlers arrived, once that happpend it was all down hill, with maybe a few peaks of greatness afterward. one being the year i was born those peaks were short lived though

but i will tell you op, to use slavery against America is bullshnip. slavery has been around forever, we didnt invent it. we did trade it in for a another form of slavery that people of all colors now get experience.

haven't women been treated like trash since day one, and still are to this day in some areas? it seems we treat our women pretty good now compared to how the world in general treated them through out our world history. so why bring up old stuff? and blame it on america.

I think that you should take a step back and not look at one nation at its follys, but look at humanity as a whole.

I really think the "once great nation" conceptually represents a nostalgia of a misremembered past and the subconscious realization that the USA is no longer so great.

Oliver Stone has a TV/cable series about US History that puts a completely different slant on events in our country's past - what made an impression was his coverage of WWII and Harry Truman. Many folks fondly remember Truman as a down to earth, buck-stops-here kinda guy who ended WWII by dropping atom bombs on the "Japs". Stone's portrayal was far more critical in that given the choice between peace and continuing atom bomb development, Truman chose the bomb in order to keep the Russians in line, thus starting the Cold War.

My point being that America's "greatness" doesn't seem to be as relevant TODAY with the internet, cable and satellite communications and mass media. In the nostalgic days, there were few alternate sources and those that spread a different message could be ignored, ridiculed or demonized as "communists" or today's boogey man the "terrorists". As as society, we are much more attuned to recognizing "propaganda" as opposed to "news".

Just don't get me started on Ronnie Ray-Gun between the astrologers and Alzheimer's - I'd say he never really quit acting even in the role of President someone else was writing his lines. You know everybody loves movie stars so it's no wonder he's considered the best in recent memory.

ganjoa

Originally posted by alldaylong

Originally posted by cavalryscout
The USA is and always has been the greatest country on Earth.

To those who think otherwise you can kiss my ass.

The title goes to Britain. After all we are called GREAT Britain

Really you had to put it in the title so people would think it was true.

You're on the top five list but not "The Greatest"

Originally posted by cavalryscout

Originally posted by alldaylong

Originally posted by cavalryscout
The USA is and always has been the greatest country on Earth.

To those who think otherwise you can kiss my ass.

The title goes to Britain. After all we are called GREAT Britain

Really you had to put it in the title so people would think it was true.

You're on the top five list but not "The Greatest"

It would be interesting to know why you think we would not be top of the list

reply to post by alldaylong


A little help here.

After all we've been through I'm being attacked by the British.

Originally posted by cavalryscout
reply to post by alldaylong

 

A little help here.

After all we've been through I'm being attacked by the British.

It's called "The Revenge Of The Redcoats"

'nuff said!

Originally posted by tinhattribunal

'nuff said!

That looks like a car that has suffered a "Birth Defect"

Now this is what you call a car:-

www.classicandsportscar.ltd.uk...