New smoking guns in Apollo moon hoax: White cloth canvas on floor clearly seen!

reply to post by mee30


All you have to do is take a single laser and shine it at the proposed coordinates of the mirrors, and somewhere else...measure the difference in returning strength of the beam. If they are the same, then yes there are no mirrors.

Prove to me this has been done. I have been proven to by others that there are mirrors. You need to provide the proof they are not there. You have provided well reasoned speculation as to their existence, but have not proven they do not exist.

Granted - I do not have the financing to run the experiments myself. Next time I go to campus, I will consult with the astrology department and see if I can arrange a laser bounce on two different areas of the moon (as per the previous example). I WILL do this, would this satisfy you? Would you like any other conditions to be met?

ETA: I will be talking with Laura Cayon about these possibilities.
Astrophysics Purdue University


Again, ETA: I do not mean to belittle you, the "Think - Just Think" is directed to you and everyone. It is directed to you the moment you get on this website when you read "Deny Ignorance", sorry you took that so personal.

reply to post by hidden0


Everything leaves tracks, the question is whether we can recognize them or interpret them correctly.
Often it's a question of scale - anything the size of the rover would leave tracks everywhere it went that would be easily seen.
Why would astronauts carry what was designed to be carrying them?
Makes sense to me.

reply to post by Asktheanimals


If i pick up a sled after going down the hill...I do not leave sled tracks going back up, as it is in my hands. If I were dragging it, I suppose it would leave tracks...

How does a sled, being carried uphill, leave tracks in the snow?

reply to post by Asktheanimals


Unless you carry it up the hill. If this image was taken right next to the LEM, when they first brought the rover out, then they could easily have just carried it out of storage, and set it down. Then, no tracks.

reply to post by hidden0


Actually it would show because you would make heavier tracks on the side your were carrying your sled on. Your feet would also be slightly angled due to carrying that weight. So yes, it would show. Just not the way you were thinking.

reply to post by hidden0

All you have to do is take a single laser and shine it at the proposed coordinates of the mirrors, and somewhere else...measure the difference in returning strength of the beam. If they are the same, then yes there are no mirrors.

Oh yeah that is a great idea! I'll just pop out to my super duper laser lab out in the back garden... Oh wait...

Prove to me this has been done. I have been proven to by others that there are mirrors. You need to provide the proof they are not there. You have provided well reasoned speculation as to their existence, but have not proven they do not exist.

Come on now, you are a smart chap, you know that I can not prove to you that something does not exist... Prove to me santa doesn't exist... If you can not then we must assume that he does, right?

I don't think you have had it proven to you at all... The guy in the video gets funding to conduct these experiments for one. Why would he bite the hand that feeds him? Also I assume that he just fires the laser at the co-ordinates that NASA told him to and then he records the results, right? But he could be doing that just using the moon, couldn't he... Where is the proof?

Granted - I do not have the financing to run the experiments myself. Next time I go to campus, I will consult with the astrology department and see if I can arrange a laser bounce on two different areas of the moon (as per the previous example). I WILL do this, would this satisfy you? Would you like any other conditions to be met?

Yeah me neither... That would be really great yeah... Okay I don't think 2 hits is going to be enough to prove anything... 1 will need to be the where the mirror is supposed to be. Then say like 9 other places at random... It would be really great to see the results of that... Although how would I know that the results are genuine?

Also if there are differences in the results of the 9 random areas will you concede that it is possible there is no mirror up there?

I do like where this is going though and is worthy up it's own thread if you were to do it.

Edit:

ETA: I will be talking with Laura Cayon about these possibilities.

Super...

Again, ETA: I do not mean to belittle you, the "Think - Just Think" is directed to you and everyone. It is directed to you the moment you get on this website when you read "Deny Ignorance", sorry you took that so personal.

Now let's be honest here you DID try to belittle me and a simple apology would suffice... Your comment was aimed at me and so there is no other way to take it other than personally... Even if you meant it for a wider audience, that audience included ME. It is a common ad-hom attack and nothing more...

If I told you that you do not think, how would you take it? What would I be saying about you? Man up, apologize and move on. I hold no grudge...

Originally posted by trig_grl
What ive been asking for years and no one has given a solid answer is WHY? Why did they fake the moon landing? Ive seen enough evidence to believe it was a hoax but im still confused as to why?

A good theroy I've heard is it was the biggest and best satilite around at the time so was perfect for expermenting and testing new tech and a good place to put wepons for a reuturn strike.
Another good theroy I have heard is because they had to look better then the ruskys her were ahead in the space race.
The last thing you would want to do is telivise live to the world a disaster at that time with cold war going on.

Just like you I believe that they lied about the Apolo missions.
But at the same time I do believe they went to the moon just not on a large bullet

reply to post by Asktheanimals


Yeah I agree with that. My footprints would show. They would be heavier, and indent more...yeah, makes sense.

Now where do "sled tracks" come into play? I am still leaving absolutely no trace of a "sled" going back up the hill. An experienced tracker would be able to see I gained weight, and infer that I picked up my sled (as he would see the sled tracks stop). Still no sled tracks going up the hill.

So you may be able to identify heavier foot print patterns, but if you are looking for tire treds you wouldn't see anything. Just like if you were looking for sled marks, not foot prints, going up the hill, you would not see it.

reply to post by mee30


Yes I'm going to do it. And Yes I know you can't prove something doesn't exist, that is my point. It has been proven it exists, and no one can disprove it exists. Hence our little conspiracy.

If you can't trust the results of a laser bounce test that I have conducted here at Purdue University, then what can you trust? You may as well throw everything to the wind.


ETA: Yeah I will see how many bounces can be done, and at what positions. If all the values are basically random, I would concede no mirror is up there. I'll be sure not to let the dudes sway my opinion lol, I won't let them know this is about a "conspiracy" or anything or they may not take me seriously.

I dont understand why we are always being lied to???

This thread is an indictment of sorts. I've been lurking ATS for about 13 years and in that time I have noted a shift in the general mindset towards the negative. The whole Apollo moon mission thing really and truly is a barometer of sorts. Sure its science well above the heads of most of us, and there are a few of you out there that come crashing down hard on those for their suspicions.....too hard. And to me that's telling. It shows me that we have not come that far if at all. The negative sentiments, how they are delivered, the venom behind much of the delivery....seriously, I am angered by it, embarrassed by it and disappointed in it.

I have read the reasons why people believe we didn't go to the moon and I have read the rebuttals from the debunkers. Both sides go out on a limb in many cases, and in all humility perhaps it seems that way because it is over my head. I live here on planet earth and I struggle just like the vast majority of us here in this realm. For me to be absolute on matters of another planet, or a moon...well, its a province that at best I can only speculate on given my limited understanding. But I do understand one thing, and I see it every day. Human nature. And this thread has underlined some of the more distasteful elements of human nature. It reminds me of my school yard days, those all too raw early years when kids would do their best to one up you in order to look good or to gain acceptance.

Talking about human nature, the whole moon landing thing has never sat well with me. Oh sure, I've read many of the rebuttals and again, much of it is over my head. I'm a regular guy. But I also trust my instincts and know when I've been zoomed. I felt that way in the days after 911. I felt that way recently when the premier of my province up and decided to relinquish his position of power, and I feel that way every time I read of JFK, Watergate....or just about anything else of controversial note from the American era of the 60's and 70's. It smells off....and to me the very fact that the Russians haven't chirped to the contrary tells me we did go to the moon...but the story we have been given smacks of a lie...and it seems that just about everything about the recorded moon landings...needs to be defended or explained. There seems to be a disproportionate amount of "anomaly" given the multitude of photographed history circa 69-72....and I find that hints at something. To me, if for all of the smart answers and knowledge that we have we certainly seem to have had an awful lot of strange photographic moments during that period. But again.......the 60's and 70's were full of very strange moments with even stranger explanations.....one after another.

I for one enjoy these threads. I think ATS has turned and that there is an agenda of sorts to shoot down thread after thread whenever something seems to go against a certain accepted grain. If enough out-of-the-box thinkers can be humiliated or shot down.....well, you do the math on that one. Or I could be wrong and we're just being overrun by a multitude of self-arresting know-it-alls who are looking to dry hump others into feeling rotten for pitching their views.

Originally posted by mee30
Now let's be honest here you DID try to belittle me and a simple apology would suffice... Your comment was aimed at me and so there is no other way to take it other than personally... Even if you meant it for a wider audience, that audience included ME. It is a common ad-hom attack and nothing more...

If I told you that you do not think, how would you take it? What would I be saying about you? Man up, apologize and move on. I hold no grudge...

edit on 27-11-2012 by mee30 because: (no reason given)

I would take it seriously and think about it in more depth, as I have been. I'm not apologizing, grow some balls lol. All I said was Think. Do it. I'm doing it, and if you told me to do it I would do it harder.

ETA: Oh you think I told you that you did not think. I apologize


ETA: Don't let web text muddle your view of me! If we met in person, this would be a wonderful conversation filled with laughs and good times (and I'm sure a few beers).

reply to post by hidden0

Yes I'm going to do it. And Yes I know you can't prove something doesn't exist, that is my point. It has been proven it exists, and no one can disprove it exists. Hence our little conspiracy.

No, things do not work like that, you can not just claim it has been proven without providing that proof. You even said "You have provided well reasoned speculation as to their existence, but have not proven they do not exist." Now you are back tracking and saying that I can't do what you have asked of me... The only thing left to do is for you to prove to ME that the mirror exists... After all the burden of proof rests with the person making that claim... YOU made the claim and I asked you how you know the mirror is up there...

If you can't trust the results of a laser bounce test that I have conducted here at Purdue University, then what can you trust? You may as well throw everything to the wind.

I question everything and everyone! How do I know that you will even do it? You could simply get some data of the internet and I would be non the wiser... How would you prove to me that you performed the experiment? Perhaps if you took some date stamped pictures of you there with the laser? Also get Laura Cayon to sign off the results on some purdue headed university paper, then you can scan them in and upload... I would need to see the co-ordinates of each hit along with the corresponding results too...

I don't think any of that is unreasonable, do you?

If you did that and conducted the experiment as I described then that would satisfy me...

Oh actually better still why not just FILM the while experiment? Including the results? That would be very easy no? I think everyone would love to see that. What you think?

reply to post by hidden0

ETA: Yeah I will see how many bounces can be done, and at what positions. If all the values are basically random, I would concede no mirror is up there. I'll be sure not to let the dudes sway my opinion lol, I won't let them know this is about a "conspiracy" or anything or they may not take me seriously.

You don't even need to concede that it is not up there, only the possibility that it is not... But yeah that would be really good if you do not tell them your intentions.

reply to post by mee30


I figured I would just record it happening on my phone. If I tell them we are trying to prove a mirror exists on the moon, they will all look at my like I'm a wacko and probably will refuse to run the tests.

Despite this, I am going to run the "I'm just curious how it works" line to get the ball rolling. Perhaps drop the idea that "how do we know the mirrors are there?" idea. Maybe even take the route that "Couldn't debri or meteorites have damaged the mirror over the decades?". Hopefully something to provoke the idea that they should just be absolutely sure the mirror exists.

I may also see if there are alternative methods of proving the mirrors are up there, but I really do want to see the test too lol.

reply to post by hidden0

I would take it seriously and think about it in more depth, as I have been. I'm not apologizing, grow some balls lol. All I said was Think. Do it. I'm doing it, and if you told me to do it I would do it harder.

See, lol You ARE saying that I am not thinking! If you are telling me to think then you are saying that I am not thinking! What else could you possibly mean? You are blatantly saying it...

ETA: Oh you think I told you that you did not think. I apologize

Yes, you did... I don't just think it... But apology accepted. No biggy...

ETA: Don't let web text muddle your view of me! If we met in person, this would be a wonderful conversation filled with laughs and good times (and I'm sure a few beers).

For sure... No bother, I'm laughing and sipping a few right now... Even though it is 4:40 am and I should be in BED!

reply to post by mee30


Bah, splitting hairs It's...difficult to talk in a forum like this. Thanks for bearing with me

Anywho, I can't really lock down any locations for Lunar Laser Ranging equipment on campus. Still digging around, but I'm just going to e-mail a few people and hope for the best tomorrow. If they tell me to head to Bloomington (they have an observatory) I will be mightily upset ha. I have to go down there for my sister's college visit soon enough, so it would not be a deal breaker.

Originally posted by IBelieveInAliens
Wow. Another tired old moon landing hoax thread. I can't even be bothered to argue with these ridiculous theories any more. They've been proven time and time again to be utter BS. The shadows, the flappy flag, the moondust, the lack of stars, have all been satisfactorily explained. And now here comes another one...an ambiguous white blob that apparently might be a cloth, if you squint.

Please.

Not saying I believe in the moon hoax business, but you're looking at the wrong part of the picture...

If you look broadly at it you'll see 3 bands of ground - the foreground, the background - and then the midground. they're saying the entire midground section has cloth laid over it, as where it meets the foreground it looks like shadows being cast from something like cloth.

What seems most odd to me, is that if that if it is 'midground', the moon lander seems to be sitting on the edge of a rather steep slope (sloping away from the camera, so that the line between midground/foreground exists), yet somehow looks to be standing straight.. Not making any claims - it's tremendously difficult for peoples eyes to naturally adjust for strange perspective/etc.. but it *seems* (to the easily fooled human eye) like if it were just a sheet of cloth, the moon lander is sitting half on it and half off it - I dont know if there are any common ways to prove perspective/angles/etc in such kinds of photos.


Would also say that the midground section seems unnaturally lighter than the rest, perhaps there is a reasonable explanation for that but the fact that the general tone of the picture is darker at the front/lighter in the background doesnt seem consistent.

Again, not saying I believe one way or the other, just trying to inject some different points of view besides all the old ideas, which lets face it.. neither side is ever going to concede.. of the points that arent clearly plain wrong, theyre just too ambiguous to prove one way or the other.

By the way, with regard to mirrors it's perfectly possible to do unmanned - its not difficult to make one that will return a laser beam to wherever it came from, using something like a half-sphere. if they were incapable of landing an unmanned system accurately just have it send out a beam when it arrives to measure back on earth, then align it with servos so that you can accurately measure the position of the mirror on the moon, from then on it just needs to remain stationary.

reply to post by hidden0

I figured I would just record it happening on my phone. If I tell them we are trying to prove a mirror exists on the moon, they will all look at my like I'm a wacko and probably will refuse to run the tests.

Are you now trying to infer that I am a "wacko"? Just gets better doesn't it! LOL... For the record I never even said that it is not there... I merely asked where your proof was and pointed out that firing a laser at the moon does not prove there is a mirror there as it can be done without one...

Like I said, I'm securely on the fence here.. To me there are some things that don't add up, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen either...

Btw you could say that you want to show the difference in reflectivity between the mirror and the lunar surface.

Despite this, I am going to run the "I'm just curious how it works" line to get the ball rolling. Perhaps drop the idea that "how do we know the mirrors are there?" idea. Maybe even take the route that "Couldn't debri or meteorites have damaged the mirror over the decades?". Hopefully something to provoke the idea that they should just be absolutely sure the mirror exists.

Well it is up to you of course but I think any mention of it possibly not being there could maybe sqew the results... I would prefer you didn't at least until the experiment is complete.

I may also see if there are alternative methods of proving the mirrors are up there, but I really do want to see the test too lol.

See, it would be super interesting to know and it would help to bolster your belief that we went there (and go some way to get me off the fence)... There is however always the possibility that it is the remnants of an unmanned mission. But that is another matter entirely... But first if you can prove the mirror is there and gives a much stronger signal that the surface itself we can put this part to bed...

Good on you for suggesting it anyway... Any idea when you will contact her?

reply to post by hidden0

Bah, splitting hairs It's...difficult to talk in a forum like this. Thanks for bearing with me

For sure.. Btw did you see the 1/6 gravity video I showed a little while ago? What are your thoughts on that? I have seen many people on here claim you can not simulate 1/6 gravity on earth but I think the video disproves that... What say you?

Anywho, I can't really lock down any locations for Lunar Laser Ranging equipment on campus. Still digging around, but I'm just going to e-mail a few people and hope for the best tomorrow. If they tell me to head to Bloomington (they have an observatory) I will be mightily upset ha. I have to go down there for my sister's college visit soon enough, so it would not be a deal breaker.

Well all I can say is if you pull it off you will be legend in my eyes! Regardless of the results.