Fully man, Fully god? One soul or two many!

reply to post by wildtimes


i would read this book you mentioned, thanks!
And sorry i did assume that you are atheist.
And you couldnt be more correct when you said this,

WHY DO WE NEED a nasty, psychotic
jerk overseeing us, and having to be
"prayed to" for things -- as if we feel it
is our place to "let him know what's
necessary". Don't you think an omnipotent, all-seeing being already
KNOWS what is needed? Who are we
to "solicit" favors, or to "correct" him??
It's ludicrous.

but what i see is you see a part of the whole picture, we could discuss if you bear with me.
Tell me are we(humans in general) happy with whatever we get?
So ya God is taken as a servant by many who is expected to listen and do better for us, its a very wrong attitude.
The attitude while "asking" is to feel our humility, the infinite smallness as compared to God and the acknowledgement that only He can benifit or harm but along the knowledge that He knows whats best for us.
What now confuses me now is that, if you believe there is God, what do you think He is? And what is our responsibility to Him?

reply to post by wildtimes

But all of the rest of the written words,
the "orders" from on high, the debauchery and destruction and
violence and cruelty does not fit with
my idea of the Almighty.

you got that idea from?? But i can tell you that you have put your finger on the pulse of the problem

Furthermore,
it is absurd to think that we are the
ONLY planet inhabited in this vast
universe.

i am open to the idea of ET but for now i dont know.

reply to post by logical7

So ya God is taken as a servant by many who is expected to listen and do better for us, its a very wrong attitude.

Wrong attitude? He's the one who put us here, according to your great and powerful Bible, and he's also the one who created everything we have to put up with in this world. Every problem was caused by his hand, and every solution, or lack thereof, was also his doing. So shouldn't he be held responsible for raising the children he so cleverly created with all of these inherent problems?

Last I knew, fathers who created their children and then left them to their own devices...well, they face prison time for charges of abuse and negligence and all that good stuff. "God" should be no different. What I'd love to see, if "God" really exists, is him brought to justice in our courts. Let him face a few hundred years of prison time, stripped of his abilities and made to suffer our justice as a frail human being. Oh, what I would give to see that...

The attitude while "asking" is to feel our humility, the infinite smallness as compared to God and the acknowledgement that only He can benifit or harm but along the knowledge that He knows whats best for us.

We shouldn't have to ask. Considering a LOT of what we're asking for is a solution to problems HE created, I should think his willingness to lend a hand would be a foregone conclusion, and it would be given sooner rather than later. Like, say, a few hundred years ago. Or maybe before we could gain momentum and attempt mass genocide multiple times.

Our humility? Excuse me, but I think humility is the least of his concerns. If he doesn't do something SOON, he won't have anything left to save except an irradiated husk of a planet. I think, for the level of accountability, he should be taken to task for, he's a little too self-centered to do much good. It's time we stepped up and did his job for him.

What now confuses me now is that, if you believe there is God, what do you think He is? And what is our responsibility to Him?

What makes it a 'him'? More of your dogmatic sexism.

reply to post by logical7

if you believe there is God, what do you think He is? And what is our responsibility to Him?

I believe that the universe is perfect, and was created by a Source. I don't think it's all an "accident" of chemistry on a cosmic or stellar scale, and I'm not sure I fully KNOW what I think "the Almighty Source" is...

Our responsibility is to care for one another, the planet, and everything on it. We have discovered how to "use" the principles already given us. For example, here's another excerpt from Paine's essay (it only took me about two hours to read the entire first Part of his Age of Reason - so, yeah, that'd be GREAT, I'd love to discuss it with you!) Might even start a new thread about it.

It is only in the CREATION that all our ideas and conceptions of a word of God can unite. The Creation speaketh an universal language, independently of human speech or human language, multiplied and various as they be.

It is an ever existing original, which every man can read. It cannot be forged; it cannot be counterfeited; it cannot be lost; it cannot be altered; it cannot be suppressed. It does not depend upon the will of man whether it shall be published or not; it publishes itself from one end of the earth to the other. It preaches to all nations and to all worlds; and this word of God reveals to man all that is necessary for man to know of God.

Do we want to contemplate his power? We see it in the immensity of the creation.

Do we want to contemplate his wisdom? We see it in the unchangeable order by which the incomprehensible Whole is governed.

Do we want to contemplate his munificence? We see it in the abundance with which he fills the earth.

Do we want to contemplate his mercy? We see it in his not withholding that abundance even from the unthankful.

In fine, do we want to know what God is? Search not the book called the scripture, which any human hand might make, but the scripture called the Creation.

In like manner of reasoning, everything we behold carries in itself the internal evidence that it did not make itself. Every man is an evidence to himself, that he did not make himself; neither could his father make himself, nor his grandfather, nor any of his race; neither could any tree, plant, or animal make itself; and it is the conviction arising from this evidence, that carries us on, as it were, by necessity, to the belief of a first cause eternally existing, of a nature totally different to any material existence we know of, and by the power of which all things exist; and this first cause, man calls God.

It is only by the exercise of reason, that man can discover God.

Take away that reason, and he would be incapable of understanding anything; and in this case it would be just as consistent to read even the book called the Bible to a horse as to a man. How then is it that those people pretend to reject reason?

And this above all, says it well:

It is from the study of the true theology that all our knowledge of science is derived; and it is from that knowledge that all the arts have originated.

The Almighty lecturer, by displaying the principles of science in the structure of the universe, has invited man to study and to imitation. It is as if he had said to the inhabitants of this globe that we call ours, "I have made an earth for man to dwell upon, and I have rendered the starry heavens visible, to teach him science and the arts. He can now provide for his own comfort, AND LEARN FROM MY MUNIFICENCE TO ALL, TO BE KIND TO EACH OTHER."

reply to post by logical7

you got that idea from??

It's just what I've always thought, I got it from my "indwelling knowledge" of what's right and what's wrong.

I hope you take the time to join that site (or find The Age of Reason elsewhere on the web; by Thomas Paine) and read his essay. It resonates completely with me, and just "seems right".

reply to post by AfterInfinity

We shouldn't have to ask. Considering a LOT of what we're asking for is a solution to problems HE created, I should think his willingness to lend a hand would be a foregone conclusion, and it would be given sooner rather than later.

AI, I have to disagree with you here. God created the universe, and all that is within it. It is up to US to use it wisely, to discover its potential, to learn to harness and enhance the TOOLS WE WERE GIVEN.

WE created this mess, with hatred, animosity, selfishness, indifference to one another. WE MUST FIX IT. We have the tools we need.

reply to post by wildtimes


My only problem with that is the use of the word "God". That word has far too much assumption, dogma, and emotional baggage attached to it to be used efficiently.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I do agree with that. "GOD" has no gender, or form. It is a force, I suppose. Yes, the name "GOD" has too long been attached to some invisible "person" who is all-powerful. GOD is not a "person", doesn't think like a person, doesn't respond to difficulty like a person.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

I do agree with that. "GOD" has no gender, or form. It is a force, I suppose. Yes, the name "GOD" has too long been attached to some invisible "person" who is all-powerful. GOD is not a "person", doesn't think like a person, doesn't respond to difficulty like a person.

God is a person.

God didn't have to incarnate as Jesus Christ and go what He had to do; He did it to prove and to show how much He loves us. And that love connection between us and Him is what seals us with protection on Judgement Day.

God is longsuffering and is patient; He's different than us, but also practical. He is somebody that emotionally does care about His children. And that emotion is going to expressed in a very grandiose way at Judgement Day and all of its marvelous way.

Jesus Christ did not come to wipe out our free will, but He does come to help us make right decisions and have the moral power to live out those right decisions.

Jesus Christ is the living God revealing Himself in finite form.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

It's time we stepped up and did his job
for him.

thats exactly what He wants! Dont make mess and ask Him to clean up, take responsibility.
Its the same as a dad watching his tiny daughter try to walk and fall, it would be very easy for dad to interfere and hold her hand. But thats not the point. In the same way if the daughter whins that "you created me and now silent when i fall and scrap my knees, what kind of dad you are" is a very wrong attitude.

What makes it a 'him'? More of your
dogmatic sexism.

its just a lack of a special pronoun for God. It would be not differerent if i use Her too. Nothing about sexism. But more about habbit and accepted terminology.

reply to post by wildtimes


it seems like an interesting book, i'l join an read it.
What i did ask you before is where you got the idea that scripture has just voilence etc? U read it or just heard it.
I'l get back to you and discuss more, a thread would be nice too. Gota go nw.

reply to post by logical7

thats exactly what He wants! Dont make mess and ask Him to clean up, take responsibility.

Huh. Thought we were supposed to be waiting for Jesus to take the lead? By the way, we didn't make the mess. He made the mess, and he designed us to make it worse.

Its the same as a dad watching his tiny daughter try to walk and fall, it would be very easy for dad to interfere and hold her hand. But thats not the point. In the same way if the daughter whins that "you created me and now silent when i fall and scrap my knees, what kind of dad you are" is a very wrong attitude.

When is the last time you met an omniscient omnipotent dad? A dad capable of creating the entire world and everything in it? If you haven't met one, then it's a crappy analogy. Move on.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

thats exactly what He wants! Dont make mess and ask Him to clean up, take responsibility.

Huh. Thought we were supposed to be waiting for Jesus to take the lead? By the way, we didn't make the mess. He made the mess, and he designed us to make it worse.

Its the same as a dad watching his tiny daughter try to walk and fall, it would be very easy for dad to interfere and hold her hand. But thats not the point. In the same way if the daughter whins that "you created me and now silent when i fall and scrap my knees, what kind of dad you are" is a very wrong attitude.

When is the last time you met an omniscient omnipotent dad? A dad capable of creating the entire world and everything in it? If you haven't met one, then it's a crappy analogy. Move on.

you deny even a bit of personal responsibility. If you fail an exam, you wana say its not because of my laziness to study, God made me this way!!! Well its true that it happened because it was God's will but if you choose to make your life crappy, dont expect God to change the diapers. Grow up!
.
And rather than seeing the analogy in the analogy dont find faults in it. I have already discussed with you a lot and you stay at a tangent, never coming to the table.
I would not reply you next time unless its a reasonable post.