Fully man, Fully god? One soul or two many!

reply to post by wildtimes


reply to post by SimonPeter


It would undermine the persona of divinity to admit that Jesus has sexual relations with anyone. He was a god in a man's body, according to the popular mythos, and so he was above such crude familiarity with the human body. It would sow doubt in the minds of any believers for history to admit such an interaction had taken place. Quite frankly, there's much more reason to lie about it than to tell the truth. Remember, lust is a sin, and Jesus was without sin. What would people think if their lord and savior turned out to be a sinner, his shining example besmirched by a woman made out to be a whore?

The entire church would crumble from such a blow. If they had lied about that, what else have they kept secret? As I like to remind people, imagine the repercussions of revealing that your entire religion has been founded on lies kept for hundreds of years - all the deaths, all the doctrines, all the brutalities committed in the name of a god whom you haven't been entirely honest about. All that power, gone in days.

With that much at stake, would you admit that the pivotal character in your legends wasn't as "divine" as you'd portrayed him to be?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


You and your adolescent views are not backed up by fact . The Jewish Sanhedrin would have been keenly interested in anything that would have discredited Jesus . Fornication would have been a big thing back then . No one made any type of accusation against him . His only accusation against him was that he claimed to be the Son of God and Messiah . Could it be possible that the Son of God actually had better morals than you . The Jesus didn't let his flesh take his life over . You are trying to impose your failures on to the Son of God .
Again I ask you this question and I know you must have an answer or you would not be so bold or stupid as to deny the only account of life beginning here on earth . How did life come to be on Earth . Consider that DNA is in every living cell and neither of the two occurs randomly much less together . Consider also the vastness and inhospitable space that surrounds this one time red hot rock we live on . Space it's self would be a barrier .Science has nothing to offer or they would shouting it on every form of media . The previously offered theories from science are as far fetched as what some people claim the bible to be .

reply to post by SimonPeter


I just now finished watching this:

It's a quite compelling refutation of whether Jesus existed at all. All of the historical evidence the authors of this documentary used are quite cleverly sewn together to make their case (that Jesus did not exist).

At the end it lists sources; some of whom I know to be disparaged on this ATS forum (Ehrman, Acharya S, and others).

Who has the "adolescent" view?
I challenge you SimonPeter, to watch it. If you've seen it before, watch it again, and then come back and tell me which is more "adolescent" -
A) believing a book full of myths, legends, errors, discrepancies, and forgeries which no CONTEMPORARY "historians" and writers (meaning those living during the time of "Christ") even mention; or

B) considering as plausible the very astute comparative research done to refute the Bible's "infallibility."

It blows my mind the extent to which people will go to keep their ears plugged and eyes covered in the face of MODERN knowledge, facts, and history. I'm sorry, I know it's hard to stomach when you've invested so much in a decision to accept it, but isn't it time to move forward?

Maybe not for you. But you might consider withholding the accusation that others have "adolescent views" just yet, or that things people say are "terrible" and that they "know them not to be true."

You might have a change of heart later on. Then again, you may not. Humanity hasn't really changed all that much in the past 5,000 years.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

The entire church would crumble from such a blow. If they had lied about that, what else have they kept secret? As I like to remind people, imagine the repercussions of revealing that your entire religion has been founded on lies kept for hundreds of years - all the deaths, all the doctrines, all the brutalities committed in the name of a god whom you haven't been entirely honest about. All that power, gone in days.

Coming soon to a theater near you.

The earth is moving out of the age of "Pisces" into the age of "Aquarius" (concepts even more ancient than Jesus' existence). Time for the shift of consciousness.

reply to post by wildtimes


I will not give my attention to such . I see it every day on the History channel dealing with Biblical topics . It's just convincing enough for people like you ,another adolescent . Being adolescent is not a crime . It is a frame of mind , we have all been there with some of the same views .People get smarter with time and the older people aren't stupid because you can't or will not understand what they are saying . With time you will see things differently . I pose the same question for you as Afterinfinity . How did life come to be on earth . The fact is that you have not realised that Creation verses Spontaneous Life and evolution is the question that needs to be answered before you can make a real finding for the Bible . The Bible puts forth the earliest answers about the beginning of life . Could we understand much more than we were given in the bible . No! . Then scientist put forth Amino acids forming the first form of life along with a roll of the dice of a billion years to make it more creditable. Scientist do not get grants to find God . That would be counterproductive and an embarrassment to their pears on whom they rely .

reply to post by SimonPeter

I will not give my attention to such . I see it every day on the History channel dealing with Biblical topics . It's just convincing enough for people like you ,another adolescent . Being adolescent is not a crime . It is a frame of mind , we have all been there with some of the same views .People get smarter with time and the older people aren't stupid because you can't or will not understand what they are saying . With time you will see things differently .

You are quite the bold "assessor", sir! I just celebrated my 54th birthday, and have been studying comparative religions for DECADES.

As a middle-aged, post-menopausal woman with two grown children and an advanced degree in Behavioral Science and social systems, a former counselor and youth-group leader, now retired, and a historian and scholar by hobby, I see you as a narrow-minded, fear-mongering liar, with a pompous, superior attitude that deserves only contempt.

How many non-Bible books on religion, theology, philosophy and history have you read in your vast lifetime?

How big is your home library dedicated to such themes?

Are you familiar with the brilliant works of these individuals?:
William James,
Eugen Drewermann,
Robert Wright,
Carl Jung,
Thomas Paine,
Thich Nhat Hahn,
Elizabeth Lesser,
Karen Armstrong

Do you know what the theory of "neurotheology" is?

Hopefully, with time, YOU will see things differently. Meanwhile, your fear-based loathing is on you, not me.

reply to post by wildtimes


I have great grand children so I am no youngster either . Your studies into behavior should have revealed to you that all people have their own agendas and their own realities . They guard these realities with their lives . In that reality they are important and live in security . Yes even you do this , you have your own eccentricities as you must have learned . People research for the answer they want and find it . All of your authors rely on the research of others before them who also relied on the word of others and eccentricities of those same people . And you suck it all up as absolute truth .
The end times prophecy throughout the bible stands out as absolutely true today . The Global government that is really starting to become reality very soon is in the bible along with the prophecy of a single world currency and the Mark of the Beast . The Mark of the Beast written about 2,000 years ago could not happen without the Internet . You are educated read it and define what it would take to make this thing possible .
The effects of an Atomic Bomb is in the Bible in Zech. 14 verse 12 . This could only be caused by the bomb .
There is so much more but you don't want to know . Your own behavioral chareturistics will prevail .
Some times a little education can be a detriment to truth .

reply to post by SimonPeter


I wanted to bring something to your attention. Self-Fulfilling Prophecies. Basically, people believed in the Bible so much that they became enamored and started to emulate it, creating organizations and initiating events believing that they would get some power for themselves.

Because they believed it would come true, they MADE it come true. In preparing for the Revelations, they actually engineered the event. If the Bible had never been written, maybe these things would never have come to pass and people would never have had a reason to set things in motion. A lot of times, people meet destiny because they were trying to avoid it. And they only tried to avoid it because they learned about it. If they hadn't known, they wouldn't have met fate. And so with the Bible. Maybe we are creating Revelations according to the design given to us, but we don't realize it's a schematic and not a prediction. Kind of funny.

reply to post by SimonPeter

. All of your authors rely on the research of others before them who also relied on the word of others and eccentricities of those same people .

All of the BIBLE's authors relied on the hearsay of others before them, who also relied on the word of others and ECCENTRICITIES of those same people.

And you suck it all up as absolute truth.

And YOU suck it all up - one heavily edited, mistranslated, doctored, revised, and in many cases forged book called the BIBLE- as absolute truth. Wow.

I have yet to find the truth, and don't expect to in this lifetime, but I'm looking as hard as I can, and it may surprise you, but I willingly read things I think going in are PROBABLY ridiculous; I read them all the same -- and do my best not to pre-judge.

A narrow education produces narrow minds.

I keep an open mind, and accept all theories as plausible until they are proven ridiculous.

You should know better, at your age, than to discredit philosophers and researchers who have spent their lives looking for answers! And I'd wager you haven't heard of ANY of those authors, let alone read their works. You're too closed-minded and arrogant.

Save your diatribes of "adolescent thinking" for your grandchildren, Pops. I shudder to think what your upbringing was if as a great-grandparent you STILL hold to the Bible as anything but hearsay and man-made dogma. Talk about "cherry picking" - at least I wander the market to select the fittest and healthiest of ALL THE FRUITS rather than standing in front of the cherry display ONLY.

reply to post by SimonPeter

I have great grand children so I am no youngster either . Your studies into behavior should have revealed to you that all people have their own agendas and their own realities . They guard these realities with their lives . In that reality they are important and live in security .

Should have, and DID reveal it to me. My job was to help people realize the counterproductivity of their "agendas" and "realities". You know the phrase "coping mechanism"? MANY are not healthy - and that includes hysterical attachment to dogma of any kind.

My mother is a great-grandparent as well, and she and I talk often, at length, and regularly about theological ideas and the phenomenon of religiosity. We have our own "book club" studying these things. When SHE was an adolescent, she was a devoted church-goer, and loved the whole aura of Mass and church. She had me when she was 19. ... my brothers and I were brought up going to church. She was the acolyte mother; she was a well-respected and known part of her church for DECADES.

NOW, she has outgrown all of it; she and I share the same career background and education, however, and yes, we are very much aware of what type of thinking and behavior is maladaptive. At least she's not too old and set in her ways to be enthusiastic about the forward momentum of humanity. Too bad your great-grandkids will only get a dose of antiquated superstition from their progenitor in you.

reply to post by wildtimes

Life is a gamble . If there is no God what will I lose , and what will those that have trusted my direction lose . If I am right and Jesus does exist what will you lose and your loved ones whom have put their trust in your beliefs . Atheism is convenient and cost nothing in tithes . Following Christ is not an easy thing nor exactly cheap It's not an unusual thing to pull away from God , look at the mass of Jews that God had Moses rescue from Egypt . Moses was gone only 30 days before the Jews worshipped a golden calf . With all that they had witnessed they quickly turned away and worshipped an Idol .How many Idols do people worship in todays times ?
Is your soul worth another look at the Bible ?Or your loved ones ?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Really , I would rather to have all hell break out during my few years left rather than to live an uneventful easy life ? Yea God take away all of my freedoms and put me under an oppresive Global government and when I will not take the Mark of the Beast put me in one of those FEMA death camps . And hurry !
I know that you feel cheated by whats happening in the world and our country . I hate it that my grand children that are in child bearing ages will not have the chances in life that I had . The young people can't know how much things have changed for the worse since the 50's . Opportunities have diminished greatly for todays youth . I don't seek to dash your hopes but I must tell you that you really should take an objective look at the future and what the bible is saying about these uncertain times . I can tell you have not actually read the bible with that in mind . Your soul is worth it .

reply to post by wildtimes

You know the phrase
"coping mechanism"? MANY are not
healthy - and that includes hysterical attachment to dogma of any kind.

could you explain what you mean by that? Do you think about religion that way or a specific behaviour of some theists?

reply to post by SimonPeter


I'm not an atheist. I believe there is a Divine Source, and that we are all connected to it, and that we will all reunite with it (and one another). I simply don't believe the Bible version of what God is, or who Jesus was. I think the message we are taught that Jesus preached is very important, and what he preached is ALL that is important about the selected Gospels.

Kindness, compassion, sharing, humility, honesty, and turning away from the Priests and greed.

I believed my whole life that he lived, that he taught a good lesson, and that others have also taught good messages.

I don't think we are all born in sin, original or otherwise, I don't think we are unworthy hopeless losers, and I don't believe in the Bible's outlandish tales.

I believe in an afterlife and in reincarnation and elevation of the soul through levels of understanding. I believe we can all reach the level Jesus represented, just as he supposedly said. And, I believe he was a mystic, trained in the mystery religions.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by wildtimes

 

You know the phrase
"coping mechanism"? MANY are not
healthy - and that includes hysterical attachment to dogma of any kind.

could you explain what you mean by that? Do you think about religion that way or a specific behaviour of some theists?

In general I think of religion that way. We know we will die, and we don't know where we will go, and how we got here. We are certainly at a different "level" of society than any other species in terms of technology and the arts, but we still don't know what happens when we die, or how the universe really works, or why we are here.

It's naturally unnerving to know that we WILL die, and have no answers about it. I think the Abrahamic religions are one of several ways to deal with that frustration. I think that humanity's "spirituality" is trying to move forward, but that antiquated, mistaken ideas of natural phenomenon that people cling to are holding it back.

Our society has (albeit incrementally) evolved beyond what it was 4000 or 2000 or 1500 years ago; there's no reason to hold on to Adam and Eve and all the other fabricated explanations of past events.

reply to post by wildtimes

Our society has (albeit incrementally)
evolved beyond what it was 4000 or
2000 or 1500 years ago; there's no
reason to hold on to Adam and Eve and all the other fabricated
explanations of past events.

you think human beings evolved the society and technology in a linear way till now? I dont believe that as i think you know better. Then tell me why any civilization even while at its epoch still held some idea of spirituality, idea of afterlife?

reply to post by logical7

you think human beings evolved the society and technology in a linear way till now? I dont believe that as i think you know better. Then tell me why any civilization even while at its epoch still held some idea of spirituality, idea of afterlife?

Because no one is comfortable with a finite existence. It makes them think there's no purpose, which takes all the meaning out of life. Personally, I'd rather have a finite life that I can enjoy, than immortality with which to suffer.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


you like the idea of a purposeless life??
So if you believe that we are highly evolved intelligent animals then, do you agree with depopulation? That would just follow the rules of evolution, "survival of fittest"
hitler was then part right to cull genetically weak and malformed people. Was he??
Why behave against evolution and help the unfit to survive?

reply to post by logical7

Then tell me why any civilization even while at its epoch still held some idea of spirituality, idea of afterlife?

I think every civlization that has been on earth has reached a peak, and then declined. We are right now in the same civilization that started with the bronze age.

I think every human and every culture and every society has ideas of spirituality and the idea of an afterlife. I'm not sure where you're headed with this line of questioning. This morning I read the first book of The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine; written at the time of the American Revolution, over 200 years ago, his essay pretty much exactly describes what I think.

I am not an Atheist, logical7! I suppose I am a Deist. I think the Abrahamic religions corrupt and detract from the advance of humanity. They are all based on even older mythology, and amount to fables and hearsay ONLY. What we can see in the universe, and on our planet, is the direct work of God. "God" need not be "humanized" or made a "tyrant" or a vindictive bastard who first "made" a son and then "destroyed" that son -- or, if you are of Jewish or Muslim beliefs -- was only able to get 'his' idea out to a few "prophets" (which were POETS, actually, wandering minstrels and story-tellers)...Is God that weak? NO! 'He' has provided the entire universe, and we are learning how it works. THAT IS GOD, God gave us the creation, and the power of reason and logic to figure it out. NO ONE DENIES there is a universe, or a planet. NO ONE DENIES that MATHEMATICS and SCIENCE work to explain it. We haven't figured ALL of it out yet, but we're getting closer, century by century.

WHY DO WE NEED a nasty, psychotic jerk overseeing us, and having to be "prayed to" for things -- as if we feel it is our place to "let him know what's necessary". Don't you think an omnipotent, all-seeing being already KNOWS what is needed? Who are we to "solicit" favors, or to "correct" him?? It's ludicrous.

But the christian story of God the Father putting his son to death, or employing people to do it, (for that is the plain language of the story,) cannot [ought not] be told by a parent to a child; and to tell him that it was done to make mankind happier and better, is making the story still worse; as if mankind could be improved by the example of murder; and to tell him that all this is a mystery, is only making an excuse for the incredibility of it.

How different is this to the pure and simple profession of Deism! The true deist has but one Deity; and his religion consists in contemplating the power, wisdom, and benignity of the Deity in his works, and in endeavouring to imitate him in every thing moral, scientifical, and mechanical.

(edit to "ought not" is mine - obviously people CAN tell their kids these horror stories)

The story, so far as relates to the supernatural part, has every mark of fraud and imposition stamped upon the face of it.

Who were the authors of it is as impossible for us now to know, as it is for us to be assured that the books in which the account is related were written by the persons whose names they bear.

The best surviving evidence we now have. respecting this affair is the Jews. They are regularly descended from the people who lived in the time this resurrection and ascension is said to have happened, and they say 'it is not true.' It has long appeared to me a strange inconsistency to cite the Jews as a proof of the truth of the story. It is just the same as if a man were to say, I will prove the truth of what I have told you, by producing the people who say it is false.

The Age Of Reason by Thomas Paine (Part I) (you might have to join to access the page, but it's well worth it, and free)

It is by his being taught to contemplate himself as an out-law, as an out-cast, as a beggar, as a mumper, as one thrown as it were on a dunghill, at an immense distance from his Creator, and who must make his approaches by creeping, and cringing to intermediate beings, that he conceives either a contemptuous disregard for everything under the name of religion, or becomes indifferent, or turns what he calls devout.

In the latter case, he consumes his life in grief, or the affectation of it. His prayers are reproaches. His humility is ingratitude. He calls himself a worm, and the fertile earth a dunghill; and all the blessings of life by the thankless name of vanities. He despises the choicest gift of God to man, the GIFT OF REASON; and having endeavoured to force upon himself the belief of a system against which reason revolts, he ungratefully calls it human reason, as if man could give reason to himself.

Yet, with all this strange appearance of humility, and this contempt for human reason, he ventures into the boldest presumptions. He finds fault with everything. His selfishness is never satisfied; his ingratitude is never at an end. He takes on himself to direct the Almighty what to do, even in the government of the universe.

He prays dictatorially. When it is sunshine, he prays for rain, and when it is rain, he prays for sunshine. He follows the same idea in everything that he prays for; for what is the amount of all his prayers, but an attempt to make the Almighty change his mind, and act otherwise than he does? It is as if he were to say -- thou knowest not so well as I.

Here's a little more from the same above link.

I have gathered, logical7, that you are a Muslim. I don't know what older books are revered or held as "truth" to Islam, besides the Quran and the common knowledge that it is believed (along with the Jewish thinking) in Islam that Jesus was a man. With this, I agree.

But all of the rest of the written words, the "orders" from on high, the debauchery and destruction and violence and cruelty does not fit with my idea of the Almighty. Furthermore, it is absurd to think that we are the ONLY planet inhabited in this vast universe.

It's preposterous, and it is beyond me how ANYONE can hang on to those "man-made" books as "Divine Word."
Language is not universally understood. The stars, the planet, the seasons, the smiles and frowns and tears and laughter and the fact that we are all BORN, and we all DIE, are universal.

That is all we have. We need to focus on what we ALL see, as human beings, and the tools we were given (reason, intelligence, curiosity, etc) to discover the ultimate TRUTHS. I see science as doing this, and mathematics. It does not negate a Deity; it is a celebration of the Creation rather than a musty old horror story.

The longer the Abrahamic religions are insisted upon and held up as truth, the more slowly we will go.