Time to deny ignorance in the Middle East

This OP is going to be Pro-Israeli, but not a hate post towards to other side so please - mind yourself. This OP is for the sake of denying ignorance, the same purpose we are all supposedly here. I'm here to deny ignorance for those who are willing to truly hear the other side of the story from an Israeli perspective of the conflict. The last time I checked, there are two sides for each coin, and I believe the other side deserves a fair hearing.

First, a little background:

Last night, a rocket from Gaza fell 200 meters away from my home, about 60km from Gaza. You can see the impact below. Fortunately it only ended with a few injuries, since all of the apartments in the area are well prepared for such events and all of them have a safe place already built in the apartment, served as a bedroom usually.



Now, let me make a few points clear before I proceed: I live in Israel. This is how close I am to the conflict. I do not support the war. I believe hatred derives from ignorance.
I believe you can only hate what you don't understand, and that's the point I wish to pass on to quite a few people here with this OP. Please do not regard my wish to deny ignorance as one-sided, as I see all of us as one and it is us fighting against each other, making war as stupid as suicide. I wish you would all see it as well.

Here are some of the claims I get hear the most and wish to deny:

Claim 1: Israel fired first (On November 14).

How many people here actually knows that for weeks and months prior to the Israeli attack, rockets have been fired towards Israel? Since the Palestinians are the victims here, you would never hear about it. Why? Since no one gives a damn about rockets being fired at Israel, besides it doesn't fit the story most of you already know from the media about the Middle East, which is how the MSM perpetuates the conflict. When Israel reply though, they call them "aggressors" and it hits all over the world news. I'm not here to explain why is that, but only to deny that false belief:

Link 1 - Hamas commits war crimes, launching 600 rocket attacks on Israeli civilians: Where's the UN condemnation? (November 6, 2012)
Link 2 - Abbas: No justification for Gaza rocket attacks (November 11, 2012)
Link 3 - Under attack: 100 rockets fired on Israel in last three days (November 12, 2012)
Link 4 - Rocket salvo sparks Israeli warning to Hamas of Gaza offensive (November 13, 2012)

We all know the rest of how it developed.


Claim 2: Israel are the real aggressors.

I get to hear that all the time, Israel are the real aggressors, and they are performing a massacre in Gaza and all they wish is to kill Palestinians. Really? I guess the chain of events from above quite quite supports it? And why does the IDF are dropping hundreds of thousands of leaflets all over Gaza, warning the innocent civilians to stay away from Hamas? Why the effort? Translated from Arabic:


What the Hamas are aiming to? Everywhere. Hopefully it would land in populated areas, as much populated as possible. When long distance rockets are being fired towards Israel, 3 million people have 60 seconds to run for cover since they simply don't know where the rocket(s) are going to hit. It is aimed directly towards the population, not to any war related IDF facilities. Like a member on ATS said here somewhere today, an act of war is against an army, act of terror is against civilians.


Don't believe for each rocket being sent, it doesn't involve panic and anxiety, as incoming sirens goes on and a very loud boom sound is heard for miles around the hit, some 2-3 seconds after the siren already goes off (that's when we expect the impact, a frightening moment)

This is how the sirens and aftershock feels like every time there's an incoming from Gaza (we are lucky to have the Iron Dome technology that prevents most of the rockets from ever hitting the ground):



Claim 3: Israel wishes to expand its territory. Occupy more land.

Truth is, we have no interest in anymore land. We wish to make the best of what we have, and we only occupy land for security and strategic reasons. But even though, we gave up lands before in exchange for peace, or at least the hope for peace:

Israel withdrawn from Gaza in 2005, Evacuating by using force 21 settlements from Gaza strip, ripping many Israelis away from their homes only to give Gaza the opportunity to evolve in their own territory. Link 1 - Israel Unilateral disengagement plan
Lebanon in 2000. Link 2 - Unilateral withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon
Sinai Desert, an area larger than Israel itself and with oil reserves, back to Egypt, in exchange for peace that still carries on today and for nearly 40 years now.



Claim 4: The terror attack on the bus in Tel Aviv (November 21) was an inside job to support a ground invasion.

That must be the most ridiculous claim I've heard on ATS, surprisingly supported by many members here whom apparently have watched too many YT conspiracy films.

Here are the facts and numbers to deal with, you be the judge:

List of Palestinian suicide attacks

170 suicide bombs since the 1990's
Total number of fatalities: 804

39.9 percent of the suicide attacks were carried out by Hamas, 25.7 percent by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), 26.4 percent by Fatah, 5.4 percent by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) and 2.7 percent by other organizations.

Nearly in all of them responsibility for the attacks had been claimed.

Like what Israel really needs is a false flag? Israel don't need to bomb themselves. There are organizations who will happily do it for them.


Claim 5 If Israel would stop firing, the rockets from Gaza would stop as well.

Both sides have agreed on a ceasefire today (November 21) on 21:00pm (Israel time), Israel stopped firing as agreed, the Hamas kept on firing 12 more rockets until midnight. Link - Gaza rockets hit south after truce

I hope I've managed to deny some of the ignorance I kept on seeing on ATS, over and over again. Please don't think that I believe Israel is a martyr, no side is and both sides have their share use of propaganda and evil acts, and believe it or not what you see mostly on the news is not "what is", and there's a bigger war (honestly) going on for your minds and emotions too when it comes to Middle East. And for many people, disinformation and propaganda (for both sides) often works like a charm (Like those of the BBC with the pics from Gaza that are actually from the civil war in Syria). I'm simply trying to see this whole conflict from a higher perspective as much as I can, and not get caught taking a stand even though some people believe I should. And if I don't, i'm doing my best and I acknowledge both sides of the conflict.

Like I said, we are all one and our survival depends on each other and our capabilities to get along. Don't let a few ego freaks who are running the show (Those people with ties on TV) to cause you anymore hatred towards the other side, whatever side you are Pro-with. They will escalate the whole region and even the world to a war but will never think of the population, but only for themselves and their agendas, and how they look to the other egos on the other side. This is how wars by the eager ignorant masses are getting started eventually, and this is what I gently wish to prevent, even at the relatively small stage on ATS.

Just a reminder; it is humanity fighting against humanity, and no opinion is going to change that ugly fact.


Welcome to the Matrix fellas.

Peace.

Thanks for the interesting thread.

Stay safe.

Good luck with everything, thanks for posting.

But, there are counter arguments to a lot of what your saying. Mostly along the lines of your focus on very recent history, when this conflict began 60 years ago. It is not unreasonable to call Israel the initial aggressor, to point to their territorial expansion, etc.

Honestly, I don't have a side on this one. I think neither are doing many favors to the cause of a more peaceful world.

reply to post by BlueMule


Thanks.

I truly hope people got the message here and didn't missed it, the fact that the OP is Pro-Israeli doesn't mean that I really am. I'm Pro-humanity, trying to educate people on getting the whole story and understand what's going on from another perspective as well. Of course there is no bad side or good side, as both sides calling each other terrorists. It is simply a point of observation.

OP next time use the search engine, dozens before you have attempted to justify the crimes of Israel and failed.

Israel is an illegal state on land which does not belong it, so whatever happens on that land they have it coming. an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is more than an old jewish say, its a reality and the Israelites seem to overlook it.

reply to post by RizeorDie


It is the way of the world we've created in case you haven't noticed. This is why our world is not working and we're stuck in old ways of thinking. Biblical I must say.

I haven't tried to justify anything here, I do not agree with either governments. obviously you have missed the point.

Originally posted by Shuye
Claim 1: Israel fired first (On November 14).

Its a hard and fast rule that people attemting to portray Israel as the good guy always start the timeline in the recent past. *

How about going back to the 1940's?


(If you go back any frther than that, there wasnt any Israel, wasnt any Gaza strip, wasnt any war).



* Another good one is "We were peacefully minding our own business in 1967 when arabs attacked us without warning...".

reply to post by alfa1


That is true, but i'm merely talking about the current war and something I stumbled upon across many threads here.

I haven't said Israel are the good guys, there are no good guys and bad guys here! There are sides who believe they are good and the other side is bad, it is first and foremost originates in the mind, usually from a proximate information.

What you see first is what you believe in, this is where ignorance meets its dead end.

Originally posted by RizeorDie
Israel is an illegal state on land which does not belong it

The US is also an illegal state. It belongs to native Americans! Name me any country, and I will tell you why in someone's world it is an illegal state.

And what may I inquire constitutes a "legal" state. In fact what is a "legal" state? Legal according to whom? To you? Well sorry to tell you, but Israel doesn't even know you exist, let alone give a **** about what you consider to be legal.

reply to post by Shuye


I'm not impressed with your leaflet story or anything you posted.

Here is what I propose for the citizens of "Israel"

Stop taking American taxpayer money to fund your military and weapons.
Return the land to pre 1967 borders and beg every Palestinian for forgiveness for decades of murder, starvation and eviction.
Start protesting in masses against your Zionist and satanic government.

If you can work up enough testicles to do any 1 of these items then world hate may give you a break.

Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by RizeorDie
Israel is an illegal state on land which does not belong it

The US is also an illegal state. It belongs to native Americans! Name me any country, and I will tell you why in someone's world it is an illegal state.

And what may I inquire constitutes a "legal" state. In fact what is a "legal" state? Legal according to whom? To you? Well sorry to tell you, but Israel doesn't even know you exist, let alone give a **** about what you consider to be legal.

edit on 21-11-2012 by maloy because: (no reason given)

Seeing that you live in lalaland I'll have to drop to your level of thinking and answer you in a way that you may understand.

Lets assume for a minute that your house belonged to my grandfather a few decades ago..

So I come over to your house tomorrow with my friends and guns and overwhelm you and your family thus taking over the entire house. I will then drag you all to one room and force you to stay there, I will restrict your access to the toilet and kitchen, I will not allow you to leave and its up to me whether you can have visitors. Under such circumstances you will rebel, but your no match for me, I quickly punch you up and choke slam you just to show you where I stand. If i ever suspect you of anything then I'll just walk into your room and turn it upside down looking for a shank/knife that i thought you had. I do this from time to time just to keep you in check.

I bet in that instance you would say that I'm the 'Illegal Occupier',

but then I'll say according to who, you? well sorry to say but you are nobody, go back to your room before i knock your other tooth out..

do you see what i'm saying?

in other words i'm Israel and you are Palestine...

Israel is an illegal state

reply to post by Shuye

Dear Shuye,

You have provided information from a reasonable and fact based point of view. You have seen the response. Complaints that you have not provided a detailed history over the last seventy years, criticisms that if you post anything which indicates Israel might have a case you can't possibly be regarded as serious, insults to your post, and more.

You have chosen a difficult, yet important, road. Denying ignorance is not always popular when people have their comfortable hates to keep them warm. You will find that some subjects provoke instant responses having little to do with the subject. A conversation is carried on by two people talking, not screaming.

Getting information from both sides is important and I applaud your effort, I look forward to hearing from you again.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by RizeorDie
Seeing that you live in lalaland I'll have to drop to your level of thinking and answer you in a way that you may understand.

How noble of you.

Originally posted by RizeorDie
Lets assume for a minute that your house belonged to my grandfather a few decades ago.

So I come over to your house tomorrow with my friends and guns and overwhelm you and your family thus taking over the entire house.

And let's say that before that happens, me and my buddies decide that we just don't like you, and 20 of us bust into your neighboring house as soon as you move in to try and force you into the street and slay you there. But me and my 20 buddies are incompetent idiots, and you beat back, after which you decide that enough is enough.


Holy **** - metaphors and similies can work both ways. Well this is fun....

Originally posted by RizeorDie
I will then drag you all to one room and force you to stay there

Wow, so it is kind of like a prison. So after I try and kill you, I go to prison. That makes perfect sense.

Originally posted by RizeorDie
Under such circumstances you will rebel, but your no match for me

Don't tell me - you beat me with battons and put me into an isolated cell.

Originally posted by RizeorDie
, I quickly punch you up and choke slam you just to show you where I stand. If i ever suspect you of anything then I'll just walk into your room and turn it upside down looking for a shank/knife that i thought you had. I do this from time to time just to keep you in check.

How did I guess? So am I now supposed to say you have been bad for putting me in prison for trying to kill you? And I still trying to kill you, and telling everyone I am trying to kill you. Why, oh why won't you let me out?

Originally posted by RizeorDie
I bet in that instance you would say that I'm the 'Illegal Occupier',

I would say **** the police. Let me out. I promise to be good, and to kill you. But after I kill you I will be good.

Originally posted by RizeorDie
do you see what i'm saying?

Totally. Anyone that wants to kill and destroy someone, and makes it their life's goal should be allowed to do so.

Originally posted by RizeorDie
in other words i'm Israel and you are Palestine...

That was fun!

My suggestion to the OP is to move.

Even if they call a ceasefire there are a lot of angry Palestinians who have dead relatives because of all this and are still going to take a shot at Israel as long as that government is there. There are also Jews with dead relatives who can also Thank the same government for starting the conflict by taking a whole country away from it's people.

They aren't giving it back either.

We can play this game all day and try to tally the score but you know there are more dead Palestinians... So are you really sure you want to try to give this the appearance of an even score that Palestine keeps tipping again with attacks?

Here's another flaw in the plan. Let's take the scoreboard and just throw it out the window and all day long you still have a government tied to elite expansion and social control occupying and starting even more war in that region with other countries and it's still just as evil and sickening as it was a half a century ago.

And so no, I don't think playing the game by our rules is really something we can talk about without having to laugh at ourselves. It's not a game.

It's a group of western crusaders and people just flat out don't want them making trouble in that region just like they are doing.

No matter how many time outs get called, the great big snake is still under the bed and we've still got a huge problem on our hands.

Good thread OP.

Don't pay attention to the haters, as they have a preconceived bias, and they are beyond reproach.

Anyone with an open mind can appreciate the message you are trying to convey.

reply to post by RizeorDie




Is that your claim?

The Arabs are unkind to the poor Palestinians as well, and mostly the leaders of the Arab world are using them to gain popularity among their citizens, while hypocritically closing the borders and turning their face to them (Egypt, Jordan) and prevent the free flow of supply from them by making another siege on the other hand, so they are being forced to use underground tunnels to smuggle things (Egypt).

You got to ask yourself why is that, saying that Israel is an illegal state and doesn't have the right to exist means you reject the EU vote when the majority of the countries voted yes to Israel. The other land taken is perhaps unjustified, but it is for security reasons which I can expand on it if you wish.

Throughout history countries that are now legitimate have been taken by force, just as The U.S or the Great Britain. Do you live in one of these countries? Will you go back to Europe where you belong?

No, so stop being a hypocrite.

reply to post by NotAnAspie


Thanks, I was abroad before I got back here, I felt that I need to be here at this time with the increasing amount of ignorance, hatred and war-mongering going on. I do not fear death and I mostly feel the urge to raise the consciousness levels here, which are hitting rock bottom due to the war.

Originally posted by Shuye
reply to post by RizeorDie

 

silly you, not all muslims are arabs

your map has turks, persians, africans, pakistanis, afghans, armenians and other central asians and they are not arabs, wait is that cyprus there too? lol