Silent but Deadly: Special Forces Seek Quiet, Subsonic Bullets

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
I think the soviets invented a limited use assault rifle that shot darts or needles. Could even work under water but it had only a few rounds in the magazine and was a pain in the ass to use, work on etc...

There was a fabled gas cartridge thing that turned your insides to mush. Not sure if it actually worked or not.

A frangible load to the head will probably knock the guy out instantly. Dispatch them how you want after that.

Saw a guy get a face full of superglue one time, thought we were going to have to cut a nostril open. Maybe if you had something like that, only more aggressive? Hard to do much with your mouth and nose glued shut and your hands stuck to your face.

(poor Woody...)

That last reminds me of the time the toyota hood came down on my buds hand and stuck the safety latch throuh it between the bones.....had to unbold the whole hood to get at the safety latch...ended up taking him hood and all to the emergency....
first time ive ever heard a surgeon call for a ten milimeter wrench.......

reply to post by stirling


There was a really really bad movie we saw not long after I got out of the Army - was still in school so maybe 1992?

Something like "Roadkill America" or the like. One of those really oddball B movies. Anyway, one of the bad guys got superglued to death. It was a fairly gruesome scene so no one really understood why I was laughing my ass off.

I have to wonder if the guys in the unit are still calling superglue "Woody-bond" and no one remembers why.

Originally posted by Orwells Ghost
The De Lisle carbine from WWII was a Lee Enfield action modified to fire a subsonic .45 cartridge with an effective range of 200 yards. It possessed an integral suppressor and is reputed to be one of the quietest firearms ever produced. It was created over sixty years ago using "off the shelf" parts, the calibre and action used both being over a century old. It sounds like someone at the Pentagon is looking for a way to justify their budget...

edit on 20-11-2012 by Orwells Ghost because: (no reason given)

The reason I ask is because I've shot a heap of hollow points and i've never seen one less than about ten bits and pieces after impact.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by Bilky

 

No, I mean frangible. A hollow point deforms on impact, but remains largely intact. A frangible bullet "shatters" for lack of a better word, and doesn't remain intact by any stretch of the imagination. If you were shot by a hollow point, they could pull the bullet out of you, and do a forensic analysis on it. If you were shot by a frangible bullet, they'd find tiny pieces of bullet in you that could never be reassembled into something even remotely resembling a bullet.

Totally accurate. We shoot frangibles at the range to cut down on fragment ricochet injury, I've had my share, because we shoot while moving at moving steel plates.

When not in the range we carry subsonic 'black talons' to help reduce the chances of 'opposite room injury' due to wall penetrations. We switched to 'black talons' to compensate for the lesser stopping power of a subsonic round. The semi hollow black talon deforms on impact to a shape consistent with a buzz saw blade, thereby increasing internal organ damage for a faster bleed.

45 cal Colt doesn't need to be reloaded to fire a subsonic round. The speed of sound at 68 fahrenheit is 343.216 m/s (1126.038) fps, NOT 700 fps. The Remington FMJ 15 g (230 gr) is already subsonic at 255 m/s (835 ft/s). You still need a suppressor to reduce muzzle blast.

Originally posted by stirling
45 Cal Colt autopistol ammo can be downloaded to a subsonic round as it travels at only 8 or 900 fps and sub sonic is under 700......
The 230 grain bullet has enough weight to do the job even at such slow velocity i believe....
Of course you need a silencer to shoot through as well.......
I think this is WW2 stuff though......surely they have perfected things by now....
(i am thinking of silenced submachine guns the SAS etc seem to favour....they are 9mm luger cal)MP5s.

edit on 20-11-2012 by stirling because: (no reason given)

It is rumoured the new round will be called the "arrow".
a recent invention of the white man

reply to post by Bilky


Jacketed hollow point before and after impact:

www.tactical-life.com...

Frangible after impact:

www.shootingillustrated.com...

I dont believe that the Special Forces will ever be able to construct a round that is both sub sonic, and armour penetrating. Because of the circumstances in which SF are often deployed (ie into situations in which opponents are tooled for bear and armoured up) a round which does not penetrate armour is going to be next to bloody useless. The only real way I can see of penetrating armour with a sub sonic projectile, silently, is to use archery rather than firearms.

You see, if you want to penetrate armour but do it relatively slowly, then what you have to do is increase the amount of weight in the projectile, and construct it so that it delivers maximum kinetic impact, over the smallest possible impact point,and crucially delivers its wieght directly into the target, every time. If you consider that a subsonic bullet, as they currently exist, weighs a damn sight less than an armour piercing arrowhead and shaft, then you see the problem right away. There is not enough weight in a bullet, not enough kinetic energy at sub sonic speed, to do the job.

However, I wonder if there might not be a solution which uses current rounds, but means a modified or custom made weapon will need to be constructed, or commissioned. The metal storm system, which any fans of modern weaponry will know of, did contain, within its range of possible applications, pistols with many barrels. If these could be made to fire the subsonic ammunition, the WAY the rounds are delivered could be the answer to the armour issue.

www.youtube.com...

Watch this video from 3:05 onward. Now, I know that this pistol is firing non sub sonic rounds, but the interesting thing is its ability to deliver many rounds, to a very small target location, in very quick succession. If I remember correctly, this thing will chuck three or more rounds before the recoil sets in. Its that fast. If three times the weight of lead, hits the same area near enough all at once, THAT might be enough to penetrate personal armour, even at the reduced speed, because you are essentially throwing a lead spear at the target, because thier impact all happens so damned fast, its like a single massive round, striking one place.

The reason that I say a special custom job may be required, is that metal storm, again, if memory serves, went bust or quit trading at some point. Also, special forces have very unique requirements in terms of the specs of thier gear, that have more to do with ease of use and speed of use, than they do about how silently they operate. Its just a thought. Of course, they could just resort to modernised repeating crossbows, but they arent broke and dont need fixing, so theres little money in such a thing for the MIC.

I've read several times on here that the Special Forces use crossbows,but I can find no evidence of this. In other countries,perhaps,but in the U.S? It just doesn't seem practical to me.The range is limited,they are not really that quiet,they are hard to hit with at unknown distance and they do not kill instantly unless you hit someone in the head properly. Anyone have any evidence that modern U.S SF actually do use crossbows? Like I said, I would b quite surprised,but would be interested to see what they sued,if they actually did.

reply to post by xxclaro


I've never heard of anyone actually doing that. I am pretty sure if you wanted one and could justify it to the captain, they would procure you one. The TO&E for SF is flexible. Weapons storage at Stuttgart had all sorts of crap you could allocate - from AKs to M14's to Uzis, if you had a druther and could make a case for it.

A crossbow is finicky, doesn't work well when the string's wet, is bulky, somewhat noisy, and has short range. If you HAD to use a bow, the crossbow would likely be easier to deal with for the reasons I stated above - it's got about the same range, but you don't have to draw it at firing time. You've got less issues with the arrow falling off the rest with a crossbow. But the only benefit you'd have with either bow or crossbow is that they can go through light kevlar which you can't do as well with a subsonic 9mm.