Silent but Deadly: Special Forces Seek Quiet, Subsonic Bullets

I always thought that bigger, stronger, and faster was the the way to go! But apparently the DoD is looking for a new bullets that are a wee bit slower. I'm am not a gun guy at all but I thought the main point of the velocity of the bullet was required to keep the bullet spinning when it left the barrel so it would fly straight. If you reduce the speed would you also reduce the accuracy?

Most bullets make small sonic booms when flying through the air, which to our ears sound like a loud, distinct “crack!” For the Pentagon’s special forces, that makes it hard to be sneaky about what they’re shooting. Now the commandos want to be sneakier with slower, quieter bullets.

In its latest round of small-business solicitations, the Pentagon’s Special Operations Command, or SOCOM, is seeking out subsonic ammunition. The reason, according to the solicitation, is to ”provide superior covert and stealth capabilities” for not only the military, but police forces and the Department of Homeland Security. In theory, and for rifles in the 5.56, 7.62 and .338 calibers, the bullets will travel at low enough velocities to avoid breaking the sound barrier, thus creating no “crack” noise. Breaking the sound barrier also pretty much negates the use of a sound suppressor, or “silencer,” which the special forces would likely want to use against militants in Afghanistan and around the world.

At present, the Defense Department does not have subsonic bullets “classified for use in the calibers provided by any DoD service.” That doesn’t mean special operations forces never use them. Commandos have used subsonic bullets since World War II, though these are mainly effective in smaller guns like the .22 and 9 mm caliber pistols. Subsonic bullets and fairly large-caliber war rifles, on the other hand, don’t mix very well.

source:www.wired.com...

Dude whoever wrote this article is pretty behind the times. We've had subsonic bullets for at least half a century or more. THe big problem with silenced M16's (car15) during Vietnam according to seals was that the bullets had such little ooomph when they'd hit that it would just piss the victim off and have him cause a ruckus.

Eric Haney's book Inside Delta Team also discussed subsonic rounds that would be quiet but not over penetrate the target at the same time but have enough grain behind it to actually do something to the target in the chapter about visiting Beirut.

This sort of stuff is well known by just about any gun owner, and has been since at least the 70's. In fact anyone who hand loads his own stuff can create a subsonic round by controlling how much gun powder is used.

I thought they had these kind of rounds for use in aircraft to stop the fuselage being penetrated?

Heard about that one many many years ago...i'm talking couple of decades ago.

CX.

45 Cal Colt autopistol ammo can be downloaded to a subsonic round as it travels at only 8 or 900 fps and sub sonic is under 700......
The 230 grain bullet has enough weight to do the job even at such slow velocity i believe....
Of course you need a silencer to shoot through as well.......
I think this is WW2 stuff though......surely they have perfected things by now....
(i am thinking of silenced submachine guns the SAS etc seem to favour....they are 9mm luger cal)MP5s.

reply to post by CX


Those are frangible bullets. A subsonic round will punch through aircraft skin just as fast and as easily as a supersonic round. A frangible bullet shatters on impact with any kind of hard surface and leaves tiny little pieces.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by CX

 

Those are frangible bullets. A subsonic round will punch through aircraft skin just as fast and as easily as a supersonic round. A frangible bullet shatters on impact with any kind of hard surface and leaves tiny little pieces.

Ah that'll be the one.

CX.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by CX

 

Those are frangible bullets. A subsonic round will punch through aircraft skin just as fast and as easily as a supersonic round. A frangible bullet shatters on impact with any kind of hard surface and leaves tiny little pieces.

Do you mean hollow points?

reply to post by Bilky


No, I mean frangible. A hollow point deforms on impact, but remains largely intact. A frangible bullet "shatters" for lack of a better word, and doesn't remain intact by any stretch of the imagination. If you were shot by a hollow point, they could pull the bullet out of you, and do a forensic analysis on it. If you were shot by a frangible bullet, they'd find tiny pieces of bullet in you that could never be reassembled into something even remotely resembling a bullet.

The De Lisle carbine from WWII was a Lee Enfield action modified to fire a subsonic .45 cartridge with an effective range of 200 yards. It possessed an integral suppressor and is reputed to be one of the quietest firearms ever produced. It was created over sixty years ago using "off the shelf" parts, the calibre and action used both being over a century old. It sounds like someone at the Pentagon is looking for a way to justify their budget...

Oh, it's hilarious. See the James Coburn classic "The President's analyst". During the spy circle jerk, the Africans are using blow guns, and the Russian's dressed like a peasant farmer. It's how crop circles are made!

Silent enough for you?

reply to post by davidmann


I think you've got the wrong thread my friend.

reply to post by Orwells Ghost


Not really. Before I school them in my sleep, I teach them to their face.

Your considerate post is noted.

Maybe obama will get us assassinated, this term.

reply to post by Bilky


Think Glaser safety slugs. They're what we pack at work. A Glaser will hit the first hard surface, peel back and shatter into a number of copper petals. The insides are silicone oil and tiny metal shot. It's sort of like putting a shotgun to your skin and pulling the trigger. They generally do not penetrate sheetrock or glass.

The downside is that they're ineffective against even basic body armor, but it's less likely you'll fire through partitions and kill a co-worker.

We've got hard round magazines but they're in the SCIF hall weapons locker.

/not your every day work place

Isnt that what high powered crossbows do, travel subsonic but pack a big punch?

reply to post by BASSPLYR


Then, too, you can get weapons that fire subsonic using stock ammo - the MP5SD comes to mind. It vents the gas so that the rounds cycle the action but leave the suppressor subsonic.

MP5SD's kick ass. Most SF units have them on hand.

But any slow round is slow. Slow means low energy, lots of drop, less penetration.

Maybe they could go back to GyroJets. Those didn't need suppression. Just a minimum distance to target.

Know what you mean. The MP5SD's are one of the few guns that will actually cycle with subsonic rounds. Most folks back in the day knew that you would have to re-chamber a round after each shot from a subsonic pistol.

Subsonic rounds are pretty cool but their lack of range has some serious logistical implications. A .308 subsonic will be a round of very light grain for it's size maybe even less than 150grain. The round travels just fast enough to be subsonic and still have some lethal force when it hits. THe thing is nobody will trust that round out past 400 yards where it will have lost way too much power to be effective.

Silenced 9mm rounds need to be delivered very close to the victim to be effective. From what I've heard from a old friend of mine who has served in the west coast teams long enough to actually be retired said that they would never shoot anybody with a 9mm MP5 unsilenced let a lone silenced at a target that is more than 90 feet away. Thats feet not yards because the 9mm has enough drop off of energy past that range to make it less desirable than wanted in terms of lethality. So silenced rounds have very definite limitations. You have to be real close to use them effectively. A few SEAL ambushes in the Rung Sat where they experimented with silenced 223 were ruined when the victims started caterwailing and making a scene at their ambushes, running around after being shot, being able to return fire after being shot in the head ruining everything for the seal's ambushes.

Originally posted by TheMindWar
Isnt that what high powered crossbows do, travel subsonic but pack a big punch?

This is why many of our guys still do in fact, carry these for quiet operations.

Originally posted by TheMindWar
Isnt that what high powered crossbows do, travel subsonic but pack a big punch?

Crossbows are great for fairly short distances. You'd think they would be a long distance weapon, more so than a bow, but in practice with either you get about 40 yards for a real world shot, less if it's gusty. They're also heavy, bulky and slow to get a second shot off.

The benefit against a bow is that you don't have to draw them at firing time, so if you're trying to minimize movement they're better. Also a compound bow or crossbow will go through light body armor. And of course, there's always anectine.

reply to post by BASSPLYR


P9S's are pretty slick too, but like you say, it's a close in thing.

You'd think they'd come up with something SBD. Maybe some sort of ballistic drag stabilized DU needle, gas fired, with some sort of fast acting neurotoxin pod on the tail.

edit to add: I guess even if you use tetrodotoxin mixed with centipede venom you couldn't drop 'em fast enough. However, you got the same issue with a bow. They tend to penetrate, causing massive hypovolemic shock from internal lacerations, but you can generally still get a yelp off. A round to the head, generally not so much.

I think the soviets invented a limited use assault rifle that shot darts or needles. Could even work under water but it had only a few rounds in the magazine and was a pain in the ass to use, work on etc...

I think poisons wouldn't work fast enough and the person could flail or scream before they go sorta ruining the whole purpose.

A frangible load to the head will probably knock the guy out instantly. Dispatch them how you want after that.