The Fundamental Flaw of Christianity

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

Well done. You pointed out a question I had missed from your earlier post and I had better get to it.

May we, for a moment, assume that Jesus did die on the cross? It seems to be the majority view, not that that proves it, but it is a part of my thinking. Don't let any Christians around here know this, keep it secret, but for me the Cross isn't the really big deal. I put the Resurection on the top of my list of important events.

Let me try to explain how I think this ties in, and I'm going to grossly oversimplify. Let me tell you an imaginary story about two men (has to be men, women would never get into this spot) who had been drinking heavily at the neighborhhod bar and insulted a biker. Needless to say, much damage ensued, they were arrested, and the county prosecutor visited them in their cell. He told them that he had a ton of trials going on, and didn't want to bother with another one. He would just let them pay $1000 in fines and they could go on their way. He'd pretend the whole thing didn't happen. But if they didn't cough up it would mean some very unpleasant jail time.

The prosecutor was a mean SOB, he knew they didn't have $1000, he just wanted to make them more miserable with a little mental torture. A visitor to the jail, stepped up and said "I heard that, and recorded it. Here's the $1000, now let them go." One of the two men said, "No way, this deal stinks. Who are you and what business of yours is it? I'm not budging." The visitor paid the thousand dollars. One man refused to budge. The prosecutor was stuck and had to turn the other loose.

it's dishonest to declare a belief to avoid an outcome of damnation, when disbelief is the person's reality. Certainly, God can tell the difference from a church goer who is hedging his bets against damnation to those who are sincerely seeking God.

I agree absolutely without any restrictions. It's cowardly, and treasonous to oneself.

So, in my opinion the fundamental flaw of Christianity is the doctrine that God sends disbelievers to hell, disregarding their sincere search for God in places other than the churches brand of dispensed wisdom.

I agree with you that it is a very unpleasant doctrine. But is it the sort of doctrine that makes Christianity inherently illogical and contradictory? I don't see that yet. It might very well put some people off; it might not be what the advertising pros would recommend to reach a larger audience. But in addition to God's mercy, His justice was not something the Church just invented, it was what they were told. By a fairly reputable Source, I might add.

Oh, if my little story insulted your intelligence, I apologize. I was feeling a bit strange, and it just sort of popped out.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Charles,

No, you haven't offended my intelligence, and btw, thanks for thinking I have some!

I am, though, a little confused. Who is the prosecutor God or Satan? I thought that Jesus was a representation of the sacrificial lamb, meant as an offering to God, that saves the faithful from HIS wrath. He liked those kinds of things in the OT.

So, is God the prosecutor? If God accepted Jesus' life as currency for our salvation, and the deed is done, the debt paid, then it seems to me that the prosecutor has no choice but to free both men, as he can't reject Jesus' payment. Neither can the men tell Jesus to take it back. He can't undie, or unresurrect, or undefeat evil.

If Satan is the prosecutor, does Jesus need to pay Satan off, to free us from sin, but only if we let him do it? I thought Jesus defeated Satan. Doesn't this scenario empower Satan, the father of lies, a little too much?

How would we have the sense to know that this very powerful being, who is way smarted than us, is lying to us. Why would Jesus have left us in such a position that we have to, in our own way, defeat Satan first, just to accept this "free" gift of salvation? It's mind boggling to think of how many Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and others, are being deceived by Satan into rejecting this gift. So much heavenly work, Jesus did, for so few souls.

When Jesus taught, he taught his followers how to pray and how to live good lives. He said that if you follow these teachings and believe him, then good things will happen. He didn't spend his time telling the masses that came to hear him preach that they must believe that when he dies, he will resurrect, having defeated sin, but that they must believe this in order for it to work for them. Nor did he teach that by not believing this, they would be damned for eternity, regardless of following his other teachings. This is what Paul spent his time teaching.

So, if Jesus knew that his life purpose was to die as a human blood sacrifice for sin, he kept that secret pretty much between himself and his father, up until the very end. Even then he only whispered clues to his apostles, who didn't understand him fully. Even though they thought him the messiah, they didn't expect him to die.

So even if we believe that Jesus' death was the price paid for a new covenant for all of mankind, not just Jews, the deal was struck between Jesus, God and Satan. We didn't have a say in it. When God promised Noah that he would never kill every living thing by water again, it wasn't dependent on anyone's belief. Why is this covenant different? How can Satan's deception or our ignorance be greater than the intentions and actions of God and Jesus combined?

I didn't have a choice when I was born of who my parents were, or what color my skin would be, or what country I would be raised in. But this very important spiritual choice, upon which my fate for all eternity rests, is mine and only mine to make. Because God has to do something with me, one thing or the other, the choice is mine. Even though God and Jesus did this thing, this cosmic eternal miraculous thing, it means nothing unless I belief it.

In what universe does belief create reality? If Jesus' sacrifice was real and Satan and Heaven and Hell are real, then my belief or disbelief doesn't change that. But disbelief does guarantee me a seat in Hell, according to the Catholic Church.

So this is the problem. Either Jesus was successful or he wasn't. If I go Hell because I don't believe, then in my opinion, Jesus failed his mission. Can God fail?

That's my problem, the fatal flaw of Christianity, IMHO, that God needs my positive belief for his plan to succeed.

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

I admit I wasn't to clear and any confusion was because I was trying to be too cute. Sorry.

Here's what I was trying to say. No one on earth is "perfect," or "holy," or "righteous," or whatever word we want to use. We've all done "wrong" things out of meanness, jealousy, anger, lust, or some other drive which we know is wrong, but at the time we did it anyway. In that sense we're guilty.

The prosecutor is Satan, who says "Now I've got you. You're guilty and I'll make you face a punishment you can't get out of." Now, the extent of that punishment, Hell, Purgatory, or something else, is up for discussion. But the penalty is not. We did what we knew was wrong and put ourselves into the Devil's hands (the jail).

Then a visitor (Jesus) comes along and tells Satan. "I can meet the penalty, I was never under your system, I didn't sin. In fact, the price I unfairly paid on the Cross was enough to get all people out of jail." One man says, basically, "I'm down with that, let me get out of here and out of the prosecutor's hands." The other man says,"No, I don't believe this s---, it's a trick, it doesn't make any sense, I'll be worse off if I try to leave. They'll probably shoot me in the back for escaping. I'm tough, I can deal with this on my own." Satan replies, "Ok, your call, get back in that cell." Sure, he could have walked out, free to start over, but for whatever reason he chose to stay where he was. You can free people, but they have to accept it.

Jesus defeated Satan's "Justice system." No one has to be subject to it. But if one says "I want to be under the old system," well, he can't be forced. Under the new "Justice system" we don't have to defeat Satan. (depending on what you mean by "defeat") But he will come back, lying to us, trying to get us back under the old system. Sometimes we screw up. But even then we still have the option of going to the Visitor and getting sprung from Satan's hands again.

It's mind boggling to think of how many Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and others, are being deceived by Satan into rejecting this gift. So much heavenly work, Jesus did, for so few souls.

There is a difference between rejecting the offer and never knowing it existed. But, you're absolutely right, it's probably the saddest thing there is. So why? Because God knows every soul is infinitely valuable. Was it Moses that made the deal with God "Lord, if there are 20 righteous men here will you spare the city? God says "Ok," Then Moses asks what if there are only 10? How about 5? I believe God thought the gain of a soul was so important (remember the shepherd with a hundred sheep who went to find the lost one?) that it was right to put the choice of death before Jesus.

I thought it was pretty clear that Jesus taught that He was the life, and you didn't get to see God without going through Him. He was also willing to talk about Hell and punishment, etc.

So even if we believe that Jesus' death was the price paid for a new covenant for all of mankind, not just Jews, the deal was struck between Jesus, God and Satan. We didn't have a say in it.

Well, when a CEO sits down with the Union head, the workers don't have any say in it. They iron out the deal as representatives, and the workers make up their own mind on it. Jesus was mankind's representative. Yes, God, but also a man who was tempted. He was born among us, drawing milk from Mary, lived among us, played with us, was our perfect representative. The deal was made, and we can vote to accept it or not. (By the way, I don't think Satan had anything to say about this deal.)

I'm running long. May I finish in my next post?

Wuth respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

Do you know where I can find a course to keep me from writing so much? To continue,

When God promised Noah that he would never kill every living thing by water again, it wasn't dependent on anyone's belief. Why is this covenant different? How can Satan's deception or our ignorance be greater than the intentions and actions of God and Jesus combined?

Noah's covenant was different because, if i remember correctly, it was one-sided. It's a little like the difference between telling a kid he can have $10 if he mows the lawn, and just telling him you'll give him $10 for his birthday. Why didn't God get a promise from Noah? I don't know.

I didn't have a choice when I was born of who my parents were, or what color my skin would be, or what country I would be raised in. But this very important spiritual choice, upon which my fate for all eternity rests, is mine and only mine to make. Because God has to do something with me, one thing or the other, the choice is mine. Even though God and Jesus did this thing, this cosmic eternal miraculous thing, it means nothing unless I belief it.

Beautifully said. The important choice is yours. Many think God made a mistake when He gave us the ability to make life-changing choices, but He did. He gave us the respect to say, I won't control you even if it's for your own good. You're free to choose the path you like. You may or may not like the results, but I won't force you.

In what universe does belief create reality? If Jesus' sacrifice was real and Satan and Heaven and Hell are real, then my belief or disbelief doesn't change that. But disbelief does guarantee me a seat in Hell, according to the Catholic Church.

You're right, Heaven and Hell are real, believe in it or not. God's in Heaven, Satan's in Hell. Through the course of one's life, people are asked every day, Do you love God, or do you love Satan? The question is never that blunt, but it's always being asked. It's not too surprising that, if one goes through life to the very end saying I don't love God, that one ends up making their home in Hell. God doesn't force. We are asked to choose one or the other. After we choose, we get what we choose, an eternity in the home we asked for.

So this is the problem. Either Jesus was successful or he wasn't. If I go Hell because I don't believe, then in my opinion, Jesus failed his mission. Can God fail?

One can only be succesful based on what the goal was. The goal wasn't to make sure that every Human went to Heaven, the goal was to break open the prosecutor's jail so that every human could go to heaven, if they wished.

That's my problem, the fatal flaw of Christianity, IMHO, that God needs my positive belief for his plan to succeed.

May I dsagree a little? God's plan has succeeded whether anyone believes it. The question is whether anyone acts on the freedom the plan gave us. Will anyone walk out of the jail?

With respect,
Charles1952