For The Love Of Your Gods, Stop Throwing Their Books At Everything!

Too often, when there's a decent debate going on about religion with minds being put to task and with readers (rightly so) questioning themselves, ignorance happens. It happens in the form of a defensive zealot throwing down scripture to somehow validate their theological authority.

This is one of the worst and most damaging crimes you can commit against a dialog whose sole intention is one of furthering the growth of the participant's and reader's personal and spiritual paths. It closes down the conversation and removes it from reality. Your holy books are to be taken literally by only you. They may be real in a very endogenous fashion outside of your beliefs but you cannot prove that. This means that any reference to your books should only be brought about if it is relevant and never used as a way to defend the validity of your faith nor to invalidate another's.

Without their permission, I volunteer to speak on behalf of any ATS members who enjoy engaging and reading productive discussions on religion, faith, and theology with the following statement directed towards those who breach common courtesy whilst in the confines of a religious discussion:

Your holy doctrine is an internal reference book for you and your peers. It is not applicable in debates outside of the company of your fellow adherents. If the discussion is about your faith, an aspect thereof, or about the literature itself, then it is helpful. If, however, you are using it to end a line of questioning you do not like, ignore reasoning, or to put down another religion, then you will fall on deaf ears. Nobody respects that behavior or approach.

I can not create arbitrary rules nor do I wish to. This is simply an effort to communicate to those serial offenders who live in their own faith bubbles that using their own self-referencing literature holds no sway over the opinions of others who do not share their beliefs. Please stop as it is only an obstacle that slows the entire discussion to a grinding halt. Perhaps that is the intention. If so, congrats, it works.

Dito towards atheists and evolutionists and their faiths and holy books.

I have had enough of the religion of Dawkins and Darwin and enough evolution myth for a lifetime.

Truce it is...from me anyway

Originally posted by borntowatch
Dito towards atheists and evolutionists and their faiths and holy books.

I have had enough of the religion of Dawkins and Darwin and enough evolution myth for a lifetime.

Truce it is...from me anyway

I didn't specify which religion and, arguably, you could include militant atheists in my OP.

Anybody using their own "user manuals" to direct reality outside of their arena is guilty of what I was speaking of. It's like a Walmart employee taking his employee handbook to Kmart and telling them that they don't exist because it's not in the Walmart book.

Anybody's books are great to talk about as long as it's not being thrown.

That is exactly why I stopped posting in religious threads,because I could not break through the written word barrier.
Time to step away from the bible and take a long real world look at what has passed and what is current.
I don't know about you,but have you come upon people that are just like deer ,caught in the headlights of an on coming car when you mention anything outside they're world they exist in?

Or is it just me.

Originally posted by kdog1982
I don't know about you,but have you come upon people that are just like deer ,caught in the headlights of an on coming car when you mention anything outside they're world they exist in?

YES! That is just it! It's this strange paradox where we are surrounded by more information than ever yet people seem to be insulating themselves from knowledge in an almost paranoid protective manner. When you question their bubble, they have genuine looks of bewilderment as if to say "why would you think anything could be any other way than how I see it?"

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by borntowatch
Dito towards atheists and evolutionists and their faiths and holy books.

I have had enough of the religion of Dawkins and Darwin and enough evolution myth for a lifetime.

Truce it is...from me anyway

I didn't specify which religion and, arguably, you could include militant atheists in my OP.

Anybody using their own "user manuals" to direct reality outside of their arena is guilty of what I was speaking of. It's like a Walmart employee taking his employee handbook to Kmart and telling them that they don't exist because it's not in the Walmart book.

Anybody's books are great to talk about as long as it's not being thrown.

Actually, it's more like two walmart employees sitting around the lunch table, and one says "Why won't you believe me that there is a K-Mart where there are pure fizzy drinks and racks of golden pringles and all sorts of pleasures!!"

Unless you know for a fact k-mart exists, that is.

reply to post by kdog1982

I'd want to note here...with all respect and not in terms of debate...for some people and perhaps a good many people, their Faith is their core, their purpose and their pillar to lean on through all things in life. Small and Large. We all have something. In my own case it's part Faith and part a cold logical side that comes above that. I think one of the worst mistakes I ever made in my life...without overstating a thing...was winning a religious debate. Rare thing...almost like spotting a Unicorn in a full moon. We were both late teens and I've never known when to quit on some things. He was a good friend and devout born again in every way.

Let's just say there absolutely are flaws in the overall package of the Holy books. They haven't been revised in any major way in our living memory...and the ability to cross check, verify and prove almost anything didn't exist when they last were...any of them. Unfortunately, proving that to someone that one time ...ws like deflating a balloon. Only it wasn't air...it was like his Soul and spirit over the course of days he tried to make peace with a new truth. I've never tried debating Scripture or Verses with anyone with the intent to overcome that since.

Just a thing to consider.....and how very deep Faith that some don't see value in DOES carry for many others.

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by kdog1982
I don't know about you,but have you come upon people that are just like deer ,caught in the headlights of an on coming car when you mention anything outside they're world they exist in?

YES! That is just it! It's this strange paradox where we are surrounded by more information than ever yet people seem to be insulating themselves from knowledge in an almost paranoid protective manner. When you question their bubble, they have genuine looks of bewilderment as if to say "why would you think anything could be any other way than how I see it?"

I would think that maybe it is a safety blanket and wrapping themselves in it in denial.
Just my opinion,nothing more.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by kdog1982

 

I'd want to note here...with all respect and not in terms of debate...for some people and perhaps a good many people, their Faith is their core, their purpose and their pillar to lean on through all things in life. Small and Large. We all have something. In my own case it's part Faith and part a cold logical side that comes above that. I think one of the worst mistakes I ever made in my life...without overstating a thing...was winning a religious debate. Rare thing...almost like spotting a Unicorn in a full moon. We were both late teens and I've never known when to quit on some things. He was a good friend and devout born again in every way.

Let's just say there absolutely are flaws in the overall package of the Holy books. They haven't been revised in any major way in our living memory...and the ability to cross check, verify and prove almost anything didn't exist when they last were...any of them. Unfortunately, proving that to someone that one time ...ws like deflating a balloon. Only it wasn't air...it was like his Soul and spirit over the course of days he tried to make peace with a new truth. I've never tried debating Scripture or Verses with anyone with the intent to overcome that since.

Just a thing to consider.....and how very deep Faith that some don't see value in DOES carry for many others.

I have faith in my family and friends. Stopping there because I may offend people of religious beliefs.
Done,have a nice day.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I know exactly what you mean. I defend everybodys' personal path. It is the most important thing for most people, including me. I totally feel what you mean about your story. Enough to where I felt a tinge of sympathy-guilt. Must have been horrible.

The problem is when it stretches beyond being a "personal path" and becomes an aggressive one that assumes authority over yours. That's when it become a detractor to productive conversation.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by kdog1982

 

I'd want to note here...with all respect and not in terms of debate...for some people and perhaps a good many people, their Faith is their core, their purpose and their pillar to lean on through all things in life. Small and Large. We all have something. In my own case it's part Faith and part a cold logical side that comes above that. I think one of the worst mistakes I ever made in my life...without overstating a thing...was winning a religious debate. Rare thing...almost like spotting a Unicorn in a full moon. We were both late teens and I've never known when to quit on some things. He was a good friend and devout born again in every way.

Let's just say there absolutely are flaws in the overall package of the Holy books. They haven't been revised in any major way in our living memory...and the ability to cross check, verify and prove almost anything didn't exist when they last were...any of them. Unfortunately, proving that to someone that one time ...ws like deflating a balloon. Only it wasn't air...it was like his Soul and spirit over the course of days he tried to make peace with a new truth. I've never tried debating Scripture or Verses with anyone with the intent to overcome that since.

Just a thing to consider.....and how very deep Faith that some don't see value in DOES carry for many others.

aI think the trick is respect and admission that nobody has the answers

Originally posted by Cuervo

 

The problem is when it stretches beyond being a "personal path" and becomes an aggressive one that assumes authority over yours. That's when it become a detractor to productive conversation.

You'll find no argument from me there. As much as I've come to try and respect everyone else's Faith to the level I appreciate they see it themselves......that all comes to a screeching halt when making their Faith my business becomes something they seem to think they have a right to do. lol.... It can certainly swing both directions pretty hard for the topic in general, eh?

I'd stop short of including Government (US) in that only because the lines have been so blurred right back to day 1, in so many ways that debating there is like having a car race on a foggy road. Nothing good ever comes of it..and no one ever wins. lol

(thanks for the words on my story.. I've tried hard in my life to experience a bit of everything and learn ..but just a few things? I wish the mind had a selective delete function for memory.. Oh well)

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Thats a tragic story for sure, but it shouldn't make you shy away from these types of arguments . A persons faith is their biggest strength. It is not something that you would want to argue against. That being said, noone should put their faith in any written word, but try and pick the jewels out of anything they they read, learn first hand or hear from other people's examples.

Your example and what you have learned from it should only confirm to you that you should keep trying. We have to share these kinds of things with others in our discussions, in order to keep progressing. I would think that your story would be a great place to begin when and if you ever come across the same discussion with someone else.

The book can also be a great tool for closing ones mind to differing ides. It can become a boundary from growth as well. Books are static, life is dynamic. We have to be open to learning from our environment as much as what those in the past have tried to teach us.

reply to post by Quauhtli


You really do have a good point on how people should not put their Faith into any written word. It makes sense to be a guide or road map and certainly a window for those Believers in a given Faith, to the intent of God. It's disturbing when someone is so wedded and tied to a book ultimately written by Man and for Man. It's part of what I've told myself in making peace with what happened then. It was a really terrible thing to do on my part, but at that age I couldn't possibly have known or understood that. I'd like to think his age had as much to do with it, but I can't say I don't see people around where I live who are equally committed to the idea of 100% infallibility of the Bible as not just a given, but a necessary cornerstone requirement of their Faith.

I may look at having a discussion along those lines with someone again, if they are real close to me or especially open minded. I'd just never have it as an adversarial debate again. Debates are about winning..however someone wants to term it and sometimes winning can mean just learning from it too. Some just come at too high a cost if that's what makes life work for some folks, as strictly a personal opinion here of course...

reply to post by Cuervo


What you are saying is entirely inaccurate. ATS has a mandate to deny ignore(ance). Ignorance is just what it says. Ignoring truth. There can be no restriction on truth because we all have a perspective to share. This is a marketplace of ideas and as such, I must agree with Oliver Wendal Holmes.

He said ideas are like sticky thoughts that stretch the mind. He also said this:

"The ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas...that the best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market, and that truth is the only ground upon which their wishes safely can be carried out. That at any rate is the theory of our Constitution. It is an experiment, as all life is an experiment. Every year if not every day we have to wager our salvation upon some prophecy based upon imperfect knowledge. While that experiment is part of our system I think that we should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe and believe to be fraught with death, unless they so imminently threaten immediate interference with the lawful and pressing purposes of the law that an immediate check is required to save the country.”

Guess what? I found both those quotes in a book.

RUMI the SUFI

However, when scholars do not study to please
princes, but instead pursue learning from first to
last for the sake of truth—when their actions and
words spring from the truth they have learned
and put to use because this is their nature and
they cannot live otherwise—just as fish can only
thrive in water—such scholars subject themselves
to the control and direction of God. They become
blessed with the guidance of the prophets.
Everyone living in their time is touched by them
and derives inspiration from their example,
whether they are aware of the fact or not.

Again from Rumi

Just as you shy away from your brother or sister,
so you should excuse them for shying away
from you. The pain you feel comes from those
faults, and they see the same faults. The seeker of
truth is a mirror for their neighbors. But those
who cannot feel the sting of truth are not mirrors
to anyone but themselves.

There is great benefit in seeing yourself clearly by our own faults. Restricting a person from discovering this, even by their own error, is not progress. It's a marketplace of ideas and you aren't required to buy. Truth fetches a high price and ignorance is cheap.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


I'm not entirely convinced you have read the whole OP. I did not say it is wrong to quote from you favorite holy book. I said to not throw them. To not stick your fingers in your ears and say "lalalalala" while you insist that people take your scripture as an authority over the conversation.

When discussing Christianity with a Christian, I will discuss it with Christian terms using the Christian holy book. I will not pull out the Vedas and tell you the Jahweh didn't create the world because it was obviously Brahma. I will not pull out another religion's holy book and insist that it is right and yours is wrong especially when it is not provable.

I guess an even bigger pet peeve is when the conversation is not about any religion in particular but about the nature of God/Goddess or just spirituality in general. This is when I most often see zealots assuming that everybody is talking about their god and their religion.

I posted recently on "Scripture Kiddies," people who quote the Bible and don't even bother to include commentary. This is not new to the Internet, of course. It's been going on for thousands of years. People get immersed in the Bible and suddenly it means everything to them.

It also is very superficial. It shows a shallowness of understanding, an unwillingness to engage in the ideas presented. Spmeone else is doing their thinking for them. I donlt expect everyone to be a Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, or a C.S. Lewis in regards to their faith, but I do apprecaite people who may quote a verse, then explain its background, where it came from, alternative meanings, and place it in context of the times.

Scripture Kiddies seem oblivious to all this. They are as hypnotized as a Scientologist or a follower of Jim Jones.

but I think it needs that I throw my book !!!

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut (crossing the limits) and believes in Allah (God) has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah (God) is Hearing and Knowing. -Quran 2:256

Originally posted by maes2
but I think it needs that I throw my book !!!

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut (crossing the limits) and believes in Allah (God) has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah (God) is Hearing and Knowing. -Quran 2:256

That's great. For you. And for anybody talking about Islam.

However, if you and a person of another faith were debating on who's godling is the real godling (something you should never do), verses like that are not going to change anybody's minds.

I don't think many people fully understood what I was saying. Quote whatever you want and, if it's relevant, it will be a boon to the learning process of the people involved. However, if you are using your holy books to "prove" or "disprove" the unprovable, you are not helping anything and nobody will be persuaded by your words.

Originally posted by Cuervo
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

I'm not entirely convinced you have read the whole OP. I did not say it is wrong to quote from you favorite holy book. I said to not throw them. To not stick your fingers in your ears and say "lalalalala" while you insist that people take your scripture as an authority over the conversation.

When discussing Christianity with a Christian, I will discuss it with Christian terms using the Christian holy book. I will not pull out the Vedas and tell you the Jahweh didn't create the world because it was obviously Brahma. I will not pull out another religion's holy book and insist that it is right and yours is wrong especially when it is not provable.

I guess an even bigger pet peeve is when the conversation is not about any religion in particular but about the nature of God/Goddess or just spirituality in general. This is when I most often see zealots assuming that everybody is talking about their god and their religion.

Like you assume here? I never quoted scripture to you in reply to this OP. Your answer here assumes too much. I quoted a Sufi and a Supreme Court Justice.