Man has been arrested for posting an image of a burning poppy!

Listening to an interesting philosophical debate about this on the radio. The presenter is taking up the position that, at a denotative level, the poppy is an inanimate object make of cardboard and plastic. So far so good. At this level a poppy is no more different than any plastic/fake flower. At a connotative level, it becomes the thing we invest significance in. It becomes a symbol that represents the sacrifice, the loss associated with wars &c.

Predictably, the general discussion then involved the burning of korans. Which is fair enough as that, like a bible, is an inanimate object with no real value in itself: a collection of paper and ink. People choose to invest significance in the object through the meaning of the words and various levels of associated connotations.

A Muslim caller rang in to disagree (the man's specific religion is irrelevant as the position could have been held by a Christian &c). He argued that both the koran and the bible were different from the poppy because of their significance and shouldn't be burned.

The presenter then argued what would happen if the copy of the koran was a digital copy (a format that doesn't really exist in meaningful physical way) and the owner of the computer deleted the file with an evil pantomime laugh (to show malicious intent). The caller was taken aback but said that wasn't an issue as he'd also deleted religious texts from his computer. The presenter then asked what would happen if that same computer user filmed himself deleting the file. At this stage it became a little more problematic and the caller was not happy at the suggestion.

Variations on this scenario were suggested, including the hypothetical scene where the koran file deleter was unknowingly filmed by someone else and that was uploaded to the internet. The caller thought that the file deleter was wrong at this instance but began laughing because he was realising how ridiculous and convoluted this was beginning to sound. He stuck to his views though, even though he couldn't rationalise them.

That's the problem right there. Again, I want to reiterate that the fact the caller was a Muslim was probably not the issue here, but more the fact that he had a very emotional but irrational relationship to his religion. People have irrational, emotional and arbitrary relationships to a lot of things: religious objects (as opposed to the actual religion), flags, poppies and so on.

Whilst typing this, another caller just made the point I wanted to end with which puts this into another perspective. After Remembrance Sunday, 99.99% of all poppies will end up in either landfills or incinerators afterwards.

As a soldier I find poppy burning disrespectful, anger inducing.. However I would still defend his right to do it or why the hell did we fight?? No way should he be arrested! But I reserve the right to wring their scrawny necks if I see them..


As for the pink devil skateboarder... I lol'd


The troops should have had a word in his ear..

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

Who knows what stage managed event will be used to bolster Conservative support prior to the next election, (not that they are in any way unique in using such tactics, history shows that most encumbent governments do so), but I suspect there is definately more than an element of truth in your assessment of Cameron's intended programme of memorial services in 2014.

It somewhat disgusts me that people of all political / religious persuassions seek to make capital out of something that should be very much apolitical.

It's the perpetuating nature of this that I find problematic. When things like this are politicised it feeds in to a loop. War remembrance nearly always ends up with a nostalgic nod to a 'golden age': why isn't our youth like the youth of 1914-1945 (by which they mean 'unquestioning cannon-fodder' as much as anything else); why can't Britain be great again (all these golden ages are usually related to empires, Imperialism and world domination); it's a scandal that we're cutting back on soldiers (meaning we really should have more of them and they should be used abroad at the bidding of Big Business); and so on.

Remembrance Day events are about honouring and respecting the people involved and the sacrifices they made.
Remembrance Day was originally observed on 11/11 to honour the fallen, on both sides, and to recognise the END of war and most definately not to celebrate or glorify war - something many no longer recognise or understand.

Too many people forget 'the both sides' bit. I've just had a weekend of listening to callers on the radio basically viewing Remembrance Sunday as 'we beat the Germans: two world wars and one world cup, doo dah, doo dah!!!!'

There's two garden memorials to both WWI and WWII in my home town. Only a couple of minutes apart, in separate gardens. One's a large granite pseudo obelisk patronised by the British Legion and poppy holders &c. The other one is a large bronze sculpture of a broken sword and the two piece forming a cross, representing all the war dead and also a plea to actually end wars. Whilst the former is used by various services all year round, I've only ever seen a handful of people use the latter's garden in 44 years. I'm the only person I know that appears to ever go there. I find that worrying.

I wear my poppy with pride to show my immense respect for our Armed Services and for the values they believe they serve(d).

I'm similar. The "believe they serve(d)" is the important bit. It's the gap between reality and the belief that makes me sad and angry.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


It's the symbolism of burning and the reasoning behind it that shows offense and disrespect and not the actual burning itself.

And I fail to see how anyone can differentiate between a religious text and an image such as a poppy - burn either and it's intent is the same, regardless of reasoning, insult and disrespect, any suggestion of otherwise is either smoke in mirrors or just downright ignorance.

And how could anyone possibly be offended by someone posting a video of a person deleting a file on a computer whilst laughing?
Why would anyone want to post a video like that?
Why would anyone want to watch it?
And other than thinking 'what a dickhead', what narrow minded, hyper-sensitive moron would get even remotely angry over such a triviality?

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

It's the symbolism of burning and the reasoning behind it that shows offense and disrespect and not the actual burning itself.

And I fail to see how anyone can differentiate between a religious text and an image such as a poppy - burn either and it's intent is the same, regardless of reasoning, insult and disrespect, any suggestion of otherwise is either smoke in mirrors or just downright ignorance.

The problem is that 'symbolism' is just that. It's not real and has an otherwise arbitrary connection between the object itself and the the thing it signifies. Fundamental point in semiotics/linguistics/&c. Ferdinand de Saussure pointed out the word 'cow' has no innate 'cowness' to it. The relationship between the word and the concept is completely made-up and artificial and yet, people can invest so much emotion into something that's otherwise 'false' and unreal.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why people do this. I keep sentimental keepsakes of bits of plastic and paper myself. But I just wish would acknowledge that it's irrational and unlike personal mementos, the mass-manufactured poppies churned out in their millions are replaceable.

It's weird, a few years ago, fans of the film V for Vendetta (it was rarely, older fans of the book) heavily circulated the quote: "Beneath this mask is more than flesh; beneath this mask there is an idea, Mister Creedy — and ideas. Are. Bulletproof." You can't kill the idea .

Men and poppies don't last and are ultimately end-up in bins of one sort or another. The idea is the important bit, not the actual plastic poppies.

All i am gonna say is the topic of his arrest matters not, the fact that he is not allowed to express his opinion online is the issue we should be addressing.

People are starting to get arrested for posting one line sentences on twitter, now pictures on Facebook, this is just the thin end of the hugest wedge you have EVER known..

And so it begins....

And whilst you argue the fine points of each case that is designed to provoke the deepest levels of fear in society as a whole more laws are passed to allow them to stop freedom of speech.

i don't agree with the picture but i agree with the guys right to post it without getting thrown to the wolves. after all as many have said what the hell did my grandad fight for?

reply to post by EvilBat

Haha I thought it said puppy too, was like what the hell.
What a stupid arrest, unless some threat was made in the comment of the picture, that is the only thing I can think of.

Originally posted by jd0Fengland
reply to post by woodwardjnr

 

cause they can but its when free speech becomes hate speech and if its going to cause public outcry which in England it will, I suppose you think this was ok or comical Has he no respect? Disgraceful moment man dressed as devil gatecrashed Remembrance Day service on a skateboard

edit on 12-11-2012 by jd0Fengland because: (no reason given)

WWJ........should have let the crowd deal with the frilly knickered birk.....!

Also the Premiership player for Sundeland chose not to wear his poppy on Sunday during a game.......... He has the right to choose not to BUT how STUPID does he look now especially when all the foriegn players did.......

What a pratt........

 

Mod Edit: Link format altered to prevent it distorting the page - Jak

edit on 12/11/12 by JAK because: (no reason given)

I wouldn't support this act, but I think being arrested is a bit much. Who's the victim? Offending people is an arrestable crime now? Shouldn't that be a civil action, not penal?

We shouldn't attack those who have served though, attack the system that creates war in the first place. Unfortunately most people support it, unquestioningly. Don't burn a poppy, burn capitalism.

reply to post by Merriman Weir

When things like this are politicised it feeds in to a loop. War remembrance nearly always ends up with a nostalgic nod to a 'golden age': why isn't our youth like the youth of 1914-1945 (by which they mean 'unquestioning cannon-fodder' as much as anything else); why can't Britain be great again (all these golden ages are usually related to empires, Imperialism and world domination); it's a scandal that we're cutting back on soldiers (meaning we really should have more of them and they should be used abroad at the bidding of Big Business); and so on.

But that is the whole point of Remebrance Day; brave men in their millions went to fight in a meaningless war in 1914 and encountered devestation and slaughter the like of which had never been seen before.
On returning from the war they demanded rights nad freedoms that had previously been denied them.
They paid a heavy price for rights which unfortunately nowadays far too many take for granted and some even dismiss and disregard outright.

There was no 'golden age'.
In essence youth today are no different from the youth of yesteryear.
Britain was never truly 'great' for the vast majority who didn't have a pot to piss in and whose lives were an endless struggle and an endurance.

After the Second World War returning servicemen demanded great improvements in their standard of living and quality of life etc - all of which are gradually being taken away from us as memories fade and the propoganda continues.

Too many people forget 'the both sides' bit. I've just had a weekend of listening to callers on the radio basically viewing Remembrance Sunday as 'we beat the Germans: two world wars and one world cup, doo dah, doo dah!!!!'

The amazing thing is, German, British, American, Japanese etc ex-servicemen who fought against each other now meet in mutual respect and some true friendships have been forged - yet people who have never been anywhere near war action etc spew out this nonsense at the most inappropriate times.

I like a bit of banter with my German friends - but respect where respect is due.

I'm similar. The "believe they serve(d)" is the important bit. It's the gap between reality and the belief that makes me sad and angry.

Too true.

The problem is that 'symbolism' is just that. It's not real and has an otherwise arbitrary connection between the object itself and the the thing it signifies.

But sometime symbolism is all we have left - as the last Tommy dies what else can remind us of the sacrifice and bravery of such men?

Men and poppies don't last and are ultimately end-up in bins of one sort or another. The idea is the important bit, not the actual plastic poppies.

Again, too true - but those symbols sometimes come to spark recognition of the idea and even represent the idea.

Originally posted by celticniall



I have no opinion of wearing poppys and think everyone should have the right to choose. Same way as we should be able to post what we like..........this is just nuts!

It will never end...it's a form of protest. What about flag burning, effigies burning, etc......

Do you really want this controlled, as being a persons choice to protest, as long as only the poppy gets hurt?

It is what it is, and if you don't think that people should be allowed to do it, as a form of free speech, then I feel sorry for you.

Originally posted by Freeborn
There was no 'golden age'.

Which is why I put in inverted commas. Britain has never had a golden age. Pre-industrialisation had an inhumane feudal system. Industrialisation created exploitation like nothing ever seen: the prosperity created by it wasn't shared and the human cost was staggering. Even recent 'boom' years are a myth propped by by easy credit and a warped housing market.

In essence youth today are no different from the youth of yesteryear.

And yet this isn't the line that media and the press continually dole out. As any fule kno, the world's going to hell in a handcart and we've been saying it since Ancient Greece. Open a newspaper and it's not hard to find a 'todays youth are lazy, and stupid: where did it all go wrong?' narrative. The suggestion is that it was once right and that yesterday's youth were made of sterner stuff who did the right thing.

Britain was never truly 'great' for the vast majority who didn't have a pot to piss in and whose lives were an endless struggle and an endurance.

I agree (see above). My politics is such that I see everything through this lens: inequality and exploitation is written on every page of history.

After the Second World War returning servicemen demanded great improvements in their standard of living and quality of life etc - all of which are gradually being taken away from us as memories fade and the propoganda continues.

There's an interesting story this weekend. The government want to do more for returning servicemen and those who are struggling to find places to live. Basically, they are pushing them to the front of housing lists. Fair enough. However, this is happening at a time when not only are the (non-service) disabled being made homeless, there's no longer any obligation on local councils to house the disabled, or indeed anyone. This obligation was removed a few months ago with little acknowledgement in the media. We've a government that is now prioritising able-bodied ex-servicemen over non-serving disabled. It's difficult to not see this in a weird pro-military, pro-nationalism sense where war and war service is glorified and put above anything else.

It would also help if the government just actually built some houses. Developers are sitting on 7 years worth of housing projects, literally just waiting for the houses market to get even more desperate/lucrative (and nothing to do with the 'red-tape' lies the government keep spinning). Instead, the government are happier to throw disabled people out of their homes and hand over the keys to ex- squaddies to appease the Daily Mail, Sun and Telegraph readers.

The amazing thing is, German, British, American, Japanese etc ex-servicemen who fought against each other now meet in mutual respect and some true friendships have been forged - yet people who have never been anywhere near war action etc spew out this nonsense at the most inappropriate times.

The gung-ho nonsense is rife, sadly. One of the reasons I gave up on Facebook &c., is because I've seen too many otherwise rational people become, frankly, mental when it comes to supporting Help for Heroes &c. If you're not supporting enough

you're obviously against Britain, against 'heroes'*, &c. I see it in nearly every conversation I have or hear that touches on armed forces and war, even here on ATS.

Again, too true - but those symbols sometimes come to spark recognition of the idea and even represent the idea.

There's something fundamentally wrong with a society that needs a prompt and a nudge in the ribs to remember the war dead. Whether it's special days or poppies. If society doesn't actually need this prompt and we are actually remembering all year round, doesn't this undermine the idea that we need special days, special services and symbols like poppies.


*not everyone who joins-up is a hero. I went to a cadet school and a lot of people I went to school with joined-up (it's fairly likely I would have myself if not for getting a police record) more dickheads than heroes. I've also met a fair few people who've now left service and are some of the worst excuses for human beings I've ever met.

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.









Rest in Peace, brothers.

reply to post by ANOK


Apparently so. There was someone arrested for trolling facebook groups. It is getting insane.

Still not worse then this.
Enjoy your Ugg boots ladies! I bet you guys like diamonds too.
And yes this world is cruel.

!!!>>>NSFL VIDEO

reply to post by R3KR


I think you thought it said puppy too?
Of course skinning an animal alive is worse than posting a picture of a flower burning

reply to post by woodwardjnr


Thing is though... both are categorised as encitement... sure, burn a Koran, or a poppy, in your own shed... for your own amusement... but don't publicise it with a view to goading a large section of the population into a reaction...

PA

reply to post by jd0Fengland


You're pleased? Really? So a person being arrested for displaying is malcontent of millions of people loosing their lives in a wars that has now been proven to have been fought in vain due to government corruption and abuse pleases you? I pity the people who think like you.

Originally posted by EvilBat
I reread the title like 5 times making sure it didn't say puppy

I was gonna say GOOD!!

but it's poppy

can some one give me a list or something of what I can do and say living in the US ?
Seems people have been getting bashed / arrested for doing stuff that was thought to be
a freedom yet...

These days, very little. We turned into a police state where we have police for everything. Fun-police, thought-police, school-police and i'm pretty sure we'll be going the way of the UK where you can't so much as take a dump without having a camera staring at you, thats probably what webcams and Xbox Kinects etc. were made for. It would be funny if it wasn't true and actually happening.

Originally posted by R3KR
Still not worse then this.
Enjoy your Ugg boots ladies! I bet you guys like diamonds too.
And yes this world is cruel.

!!!>>>NSFL VIDEO