Government taxes on the rich? There is a better way...

Originally posted by newcovenant

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

SInce the Bush tax cuts have been around for over ten years, wouldn't they really be considered the going rate, rather than a tax cut?

Maybe because he peddled them as a temporary measure to use up the surplus we had in the economy then and now we don't and we want it back. This economy belongs to all of us.

No, the economy belongs to those who contribute to it.

edit on 11-11-2012 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)

#1. You are talking about NOT contributing to it.

#2. And when we buy anything we pay sales tax and contribute to it.

When we pay our local taxes and all Federal taxes we are paying for it.
Many instances where we all contribute to this economy and own it.
We all depend on it.

1). No, I'm saying that the people everyone is trying to take more from already contribute--more than their fair share infact.

2). No, those do not contribute to the income tax and this is what we are talking about--trying to hose people who are already paying the most income tax in both rates and dollars to pay more because some people simply dislike them.

"We all depend on it." There you go--you use the word "depend" and therein lies the problem: dependancy rather than individual effort and self-reliance.

thanks for all the comments sorry I had to go fix an in-laws car kind of an emergency situation.

I like the sales tax idea to an extent but my thought was more force the company to keep money circulating within the company

I dont like the fact that the rich hoard and hoard and hoard and hoard some more but I think the government needs to have the amount of taxes they receive dramatically reduced. They prove time and time again they are incapable of utilizing it in responsible ways and therefore need to have it cut to where they only have enough to spend on the essentials.

Instead of using what they receive from us responsibly they squander it and force us to pay more.

reply to post by NavyDoc


there you go that word depend again...

What part of denial do you live in?

Do you depend on the military? How about our government ability to protect itself from cyber attack? Should this come out of the Presidents pocket? Boarder patrol? Social Security or Medicare? Know anyone who does? How about infectious disease control, hazardous material or the FDA? Do we need these or can we pass these off to private industry to take care of for us? Yes and your quiet now but once you get people just a little more desperate the Private Prison Industry will start kicking in as planned by folks who live behind security fences and not the world they are creating with there greed and self interest. Countless examples of necessary spending because we depend on it as citizens. People who do not want to pay the same portion of income in tax the vast majority of us do should be asked to leave.

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

there you go that word depend again...

What part of denial do you live in?

Do you depend on the military? How about our government ability to protect itself from cyber attack? Should this come out of the Presidents pocket? Boarder patrol? Social Security or Medicare? Know anyone who does? How about infectious disease control, hazardous material or the FDA? Do we need these or can we pass these off to private industry to take care of for us? Yes and your quiet now but once you get people just a little more desperate the Private Prison Industry will start kicking in as planned by folks who live behind security fences and not the world they are creating with there greed and self interest. Countless examples of necessary spending because we depend on it as citizens. People who do not want to pay the same portion of income in tax the vast majority of us do should be asked to leave.

LOL. Those high wage earners pay a much higher portion of income tax than you do, in fact about half the population pays no income tax at all. Shall you ask them to leave as well?

No one is arguing about paying tax to fund the legitimate expenses of government as put down in the Constitution. I know that and you know that, even though you obfuscate. What all of this class warfare rhetoric is about is entitlements and transferring the income of one to another. That Sir, is the truth of the matter. Many, many people want to have their needs met but they want someone else to pay for it. Therein lies the problem.

First things first, I own a business that grosses over 220k a year. After allowable tax incentives and after gaming the system (legally) I pay taxes on about 10k of "income".

Call me one of the rich assholes or you can call me someone just smart enough to "game" the system. I do nothing that is not legal and I have yet to pay squat for income tax. Is this fair? Heck no it's not! Am I a fool if I don't do the same things every singe business owner (including Romney) does? Heck no I am SMART!

Does that make it fair? Hell no. After deductions and re-investment I go on three vacations a year and have more cash than I know what to do with. It is simply not fair. I am no fool though so I will be damned if I pay one cent more than I have to.

Given that a lowley 220k wage earner pays virtually no taxes what do you think really rich people pay? Answer? about 4%......

The only fair method of taxation is a falt retail based sales tax with NO WRITE-OFFS! You buy a product for your business the tax is collected at the sales counter. This is the only "fair" method of taxation. Poor people don't buy squat, they pay less, rich people buy a yaght and they can't write off the taxes based on some B.S. tax rule.

Flat retail based sales tax. Anything else can be scammed and gamed by any CPA worth his or her paycheck.

25 years ago I had to do 90 days of house arrest. The only reason I got house arrest was being able to afford the $140.00 a week for the monitoring. Had I not that cash I would have spent 90 days in L.A. County. While under house arrest I only had to be home about 8 hours a night. I had complete and total freedom. Money makes the rules and money games the system. Not fair at all.

Did I and will I continue to work and game every single write-off and rule that I legally can? You bet! It is still not right that someone with money can suffer none fo the BS poor people have to.

Go after the under-the-table and massive underground economy.

Everyone must buy food, fuel, clothes, such essentials, and all products and services. Even the drug dealers, illegals, everyone.

AT THE SAME TIME as you repeal the income tax amendment (and make it illegal), institute a consumption tax collected at every point-of-sale. No exemptions, exceptions, rich, poor, everyone is taxed the same fair share. A percentage increase will require another constitutional amendment, but not one to to lower the rate.

The wealthier will pay more taxes because they will have the funds to buy more things and services. All banking transactions are a taxable service.

reply to post by Mamatus


I also, as stated before, advocate a sales tax type system. However, you'd still have to tweak it a little bit to make it really work for the "poor" people.

For example, many poor people live virtually paycheck to paycheck. Some of it certainly has to do with problems with impulse control. Even the "richer" people live in a similar manner. Your budget allows you to get a million dollar mortgage, so you get a million dollar mortgage. Poorer people who can afford a 100k mortgage get that. You find that most people live at the edge of their means; whatever that may be.

With the current system, people are forced to save for a rainy day even if they don't want to. The government takes some of their income tax and "holds" it for a while and gives it back to them at the end of the year. With this money, people can put a down payment on a new car, update their home, etc. Pretty much anything that requires a large sum of money. Without this big payout, some people would never have the disposable income to get some of the things they need.

Originally posted by tkwasny
Go after the under-the-table and massive underground economy.

Everyone must buy food, fuel, clothes, such essentials, and all products and services. Even the drug dealers, illegals, everyone.

AT THE SAME TIME as you repeal the income tax amendment (and make it illegal), institute a consumption tax collected at every point-of-sale. No exemptions, exceptions, rich, poor, everyone is taxed the same fair share. A percentage increase will require another constitutional amendment, but not one to to lower the rate.

The wealthier will pay more taxes because they will have the funds to buy more things and services. All banking transactions are a taxable service.

edit on 11-11-2012 by tkwasny because: Addition

Entirely reasonable and a real possibility. Should be one of the options on the table and I think that it is.

reply to post by lobotomizemecapin

I dont like the fact that the rich hoard and hoard and hoard and hoard some more but

Totally incorrect.
Do you think they put their money under the mattress?
Do you think they put their money in a savings account? (.25%)
No they put their money in the stock market. They take a chance on new startup companies.
Their money in invested in America. Don't penalize them for that.

Originally posted by Hefficide

When did allowing previous easements of tax burden become the same thing as "raising taxes"???

The Bush era tax cuts were tax cuts. A means of letting the wealthy enjoy the prosperity that America was having at the time. Letting these bonuses expire because the economy is no longer good is NOT a tax increase.

Many workers these days work on "incentive based pay". If you have a killer month at work and get a huge bonus and then have a slow month the following month - thus making less in incentives... Have you received a pay decrease? Of course not.

Same concept here. The rich just don't want to fess up to it - and, sadly, they have the ability to use every pundit on the planet to spin the truth and promulgate the "tax increase" myth.

~Heff

THe Bush era tax cuts, dropped the lowest margin from 15% to 10% and the upper margin from 39.6 to 35%. Bush cut the income tax on the lowest wage earners by a much higher percentage than the upper wage earners, so it was not a tax cut "just for the wealthy," it was a tax cut for everyone and it benefitted the middle class more than the wealthy.

In addition, with more money in the economy rather than being wasted by government, the economy grew for 6 straight years and revenues to the federal government actually increased with 2007 revenues an all time record of 1.2 trillion dollars.



Here is the problem that the left has: you cannot improve the economy for just the people you like and not the people you hate. If you improve the economy, everyone benefits: rich and poor. Likewise, you cannot just hurt a single class of people with a bad economy. In trying to "stick it to those evil rich" you end up screwing everyone eventually. We will never get ahead if we base all of our decisions on dislike of various classes of people. We need to improve the economy for all and reduce the burdon of taxation and government for all.

reply to post by lobotomizemecapin


His taxes are going to come under the tripped mandate of Obamacare clause as per Supreme court ruling, but sadly this taxes will be bundle in a package in which we all are going to pay no only the rich

You have been warned, under Obamacare is going to be the biggest increase in taxes in the history of the US, and to get the people all confuse he is using the Tax the rich propaganda to push the bill that eventually have to go to congress before the full implementation of Obamacare.

People tend forget about anything when the bad boys in the rich circles get to be targeted but is nothing but propganda.

The incomes of every working American could be taxed at 100% at it still wouldn't erase the debt.

Taxing a certain segment just because "they can afford it" is certainly not a solution. The illusion of "class warfare" is being perpetrated by the idiots in DC because they know if they pander to the lower class, they will continue to win elections.

Originally posted by TheAngryFarm
The incomes of every working American could be taxed at 100% at it still wouldn't erase the debt.

Taxing a certain segment just because "they can afford it" is certainly not a solution. The illusion of "class warfare" is being perpetrated by the idiots in DC because they know if they pander to the lower class, they will continue to win elections.

It certainly makes more sense than taxing the people who can't afford it. Most industries seem to all boil down to selling something to a lot of people; even if they just perform a support role located on the periphery to those companies that do.

Unless you make a product that only the uber-rich can afford, you need to be able to sell something to a lot of people.

I suppose we can tax the lower classes into oblivion except for the few people who make super yachts for the rich.

If that were the case, then we'd either have to have everyone starve to death or have the "dreaded socialist state" I'm always hearing about to support the poor.

For all I know, having a powerful middle class is a pipe-dream and the natural order is a ruling elite surrounded by dirt-poor serfs.

reply to post by Mayson


The solution is to cut spending.

It's pretty simple.

Giving more money to those fools in DC is like giving a crackhead $100 and expecting him to be responsible with it.

reply to post by TheAngryFarm


The spending can not be stopped, see the fed needs to keep printing money to avoid a another collapse, 40 billion a month to support WalStreet bankers most people have no idea what is keeping an economic collapse from happening right now. Wait for the Q4 because right now Q3 is not enough.

America is owned by bankers, Wall Street and the Fed, that is the truth, the president can come out and talk crap about fixing this and that, taxing the rich or else, the only ones that are going to be taxed under the soon to become the biggest tax increasing in the US is going to be regular working class individuals.

Originally posted by TheAngryFarm
reply to post by Mayson

 

The solution is to cut spending.

It's pretty simple.

Giving more money to those fools in DC is like giving a crackhead $100 and expecting him to be responsible with it.

I don't know that only cutting spending is the solution.

I mean, you could probably cut out the post office and just have people use FedEX and e-mail, but how does putting all those Americans out of work help the country?

I'm sure that you'd have to cut some spending, tax people a little bit more, and do some slightly underhanded things to help balance the budget; if you were so inclined. Now, this is just an example. I'm sure you say that those people would find work at FedEX or something and you might be right, but the actual point still stands and is valid.

reply to post by Mayson


Cutting all programs not specifically authorized by the Constitution would be a good place to start.

"Entitlements", the dept of education, eliminating all foreign aid, etc etc

Those would all be good places to start cutting.

First time poster,
Just some info to consider. I have been bothered recently by the terms "people who like stuff" and "progressive tax rates" and I wanted to look further into this. After listening to 4 millionaires proclaim entrepreneurship and slide into political debate over redistribution of wealth and moochers, I started my search. Ironically none of these millionaires were self made. They all inherited their wealth and proclaimed entrepreneurship, yes they are a good businessmen but their ancestors were the entrepreneurs. What i discovered was interesting, at least to me, so ill share it with you all.

The first thing I looked into was progressive rates and I stumbled upon this thread of a 100 year tax research chart:
www.docudharma.com...

As you can see after reviewing the charts we are actually on a 100 year regressive tax rate(favor the wealthy) that continues today.

Then I looked into "people that like stuff" and I discovered this thread of social welfare vs corporate welfare:
thinkbynumbers.org...

many complain about the lowlifes that only mooch and want more things such as healthcare, food stamps for the jobs they've lost ect. As it turns out, the ones that like stuff are the very some ones that complain about those people. social welfare accounts for 59bil a year, however foreign aid accounts for 50bil, and corporate welfare/subsidies account for a huge 92bil per year. Not to mention all the bail outs to financial institutions under the conditions of start lending again....yea, ok.

What does this mean? Well the top 1% of companies(fortune 500) get subsidies from the government e.g. Us the tax payers. So while the are making record breaking profits during the deepest part of our recession, and the CEO's collect unimaginable bonuses, they still collect your money as a subsidy. In addition they still take advantage of reductions and loopholes and pay virtually no tax. What gets me even more, they resell your own tax dollars back to you in the form of a product, that is then additionally taxed and recycled into the system.
www.huffingtonpost.com...

So what happens, when you demand the basic rights such as affordable healthcare(stuff) as a hard working loyal citizen? Or maybe unemployment because your job was just moved overseas with no warning? They fire you and ship your jobs offshore, because india and china both have emerging middle classes that work for less and buy their products. So they DONT need you any more. You have already paid their way and they will not thank you by giving back. Extortion comes to mind.
www.amazon.com...

So we need to stop regurgitating what these pundants and talk show host spit out, they are there for entertainment, ratings and money. Most are no more qualified or educated in economics or politics than you are...just more experienced regurgitating it. Do the research yourself.

As far as tax rates...if they were fair we would have flat taxes for a start and access to the same deductions. If I make 1000$ and pay 10% tax I pay in 100$, If you make 100$ and pay 10% tax you pay in 10$. Wait! That's not fair I pay more! Well no, I pay my fair share as you do. Instead we developed a system where I pay 5% which equals 50$ and Im still not happy because I still pay more, but Its more fair? I don't get it.

I do not believe in touching capital gains much....that is the driving force of the economy. And I believe we need to adapt to globalization with a sliding tax code to encourage American employment. If 100% of your employees are American for an American company you get the greatest tax break...and slide the scale down. If 90% is American and 10 foreign you pay a higher scale, 10% American 90% foreign you pay the highest rate of tax. My 2cents

Also we must be careful when we make a blanket statement as cut/get rid of entitlements. While i do agree some programs are out of control, What you are suggesting is theft. Many entitlements in discussions we paid for on the back of the working class such as myself. Instead They need to be reformed. But why is no one talking about corporate welfare?????
That's the biggest burden on America, the welfare for the rich.
But have no fair, they got your back.

Sorry double post love the smartphone...