Obama Re-election: Stocks Down, Fiscal Cliff

reply to post by Valhall


EXCELLENT book. Ayn Rand was a little strange with the sex stuff in it ... but the book itself was excellent. The storyline was good and the basic message got through loud and clear. ATLAS WILL SHRUG .

Originally posted by Valhall
reply to post by ararisq

 

John Galt was the fictional character in Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged. He shut the motor down to stop the socialization of society. He stopped the indentured servitude of the producing America by turning off the motor that funded and drove it off.

The looters (corrupt politicians) and the moochers (those on the dole from the government) were left with nothing to fuel their socialized economy anymore.

edit on 11-7-2012 by Valhall because: (no reason given)

The problem overall with the ideals pushed forward by Rand is that its outdated.
If America was the only nation on earth, it would be a pretty decent philosophy to stand for, however, the manufacturing jobs aren't here anymore, there is a new slave class that corporations use over hard working westerners (slaves being chinese and indians).

Gone are the days where everything in the stores is locally made and only in exotic shops could you find things from china and the like...
Arguably even in Rands hayday such times were coming to an end with greater trade.

We need people in this century now coming up with ideas and philosophys that understand the realities of a global market. For now, Rand's philosophy does little more than enable only the largest investing firm to consolidate wealth with no return to anyone within country.


___
Not sure of your view on Rand'ism overall. Just wanted to follow up your post with the issues of the philosophy in todays society overall.

reply to post by SaturnFX


What the hell ever. The concept that if industry revolts and the revenue stream goes away the entire system will collapse is an infallible idea.

I assure you. So irrespective of whether you think her overall philosophy (which I do not 100% embrace) will fit for today's world or not, the concept of a revolution by the producers holds true. No revenue...no system.

reply to post by Valhall

What the hell ever. The concept that if industry revolts and the revenue stream goes away the entire system will collapse is an infallible idea.

The problem is, there is no longer any industry in the traditional meaning of the term. The "boom" of the Bush years was almost entirely due to accounting tricks. The money only existed as zeroes and ones on computer networks.

reply to post by SaturnFX


I'm sorry I just don't agree with that take on Rands book, witness d'Anconia copper and the character Francisco d'Anconia who took down foreign goverments, foreign markets along with US investors - in otherwords she represented "global" markets you posit your theory upon.

Far as I'm concerned she has eirily predicted this day, age and electoral result - it is the phyricc victory of the moocher class unbridled.

Was Maggie Thatcher who said, "the only problem with socialism is when they run out of others money to spend" that day is coming and it will be sooner now rather than later - idiots have totally ruined the republic far as I'm concerned - wallow in it while you can before hard reality sets in.

For the tax the rich folks on this thread I have this,

Raising taxes won’t help. Since the end of World War II, tax receipts in the US have averaged 17.7% of GDP in a very tight range. The low has been 14.4% of GDP, and the high has been 20.6% of GDP.

Raising taxes won’t help. Since the end of World War II, tax receipts in the US have averaged 17.7% of GDP in a very tight range. The low has been 14.4% of GDP, and the high has been 20.6% of GDP.

During that period, however, tax rates have been all over the board. Individual rates have ranged from 10% to 91%. Corporate rates from 15% to 53%. Gift taxes, estate taxes, etc. have all varied. And yet, total tax revenue has stayed nearly constant at 17.7% of GDP.It doesn’t matter how much they increase tax rates– they won’t collect any more money!

Its simple math folks, raise em high and revenue decreases, lower em and revenue increases but as percent of GDP it remains near constant.

This has been fairly well know for a long long time and any politician saying otherwise is group pandering thats all, they are certainly not interested in fixing the real problem which is a government way beyond the nations means to support - its math not opinion.

Originally posted by Valhall
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

What the hell ever. The concept that if industry revolts and the revenue stream goes away the entire system will collapse is an infallible idea.

I assure you. So irrespective of whether you think her overall philosophy (which I do not 100% embrace) will fit for today's world or not, the concept of a revolution by the producers holds true. No revenue...no system.

On that argumet, sure. if every industry on earth suddenly stops, the world is over.
to include the lives of those whom did this.

Its a bit like saying, if everyone on earth shoots themselves in the head, we will crash the economy...sure..ya, that would work also.

And how is that relevant to reality?

An asteroid smacking earth would be far more likely to stop industry.

Again, the technicals of Rand's philosophy effectively strengthening the western (american) society after a demonstration wouldn't work in todays age..it would crash the world economy and global war would be the actual outcome. But as far as the local economy, ya...we are not a autonomous society now. we are part of a global economy.
Look at todays stock market..ignore right wing nuts saying this is Obama's re-election fault and look at what is actually happening. Germany is tanking today, and so here we are, being sucked down also because of their industry.

Rand's ideology has no place in this century. the outcome is not even remotely close to her picture painted.

reply to post by Phoenix


The moocher class is currently the corporate welfare folks. outsourcing jobs, demanding bonuses for doing business with the US, paying no taxes.

That impacts us far more than some dude on food stamps (whom ultimately is just taking money and shoving it right back into the economy).

corporate influences and these megacorp destroyers are the cancer. they are both the moocher and the parasite.

To deny this is not to be living in this reality.

Its not as simple as I suggest it is of course. very general premise for a very long and detailed conversation on the subject, but a summed up version is simply that.
Rand is irrelevant. a nice simple answer..but like most simple answers, only the simple minded will think it will solve anything

Originally posted by alternateuniverse
History repeats itself. Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, Bush 43, and now Obama. It's actually an insult to those Presidents to place Obama along side them. Presidents always do worse in their second term. I am not optimistic and Obama will have a chance of appointing 5 Supreme Court Justices during his tenor. Stocks are already falling. Obamacare will be fully implemented. There will be even more horrific surprises coming. I just can't wait. And winning with 10 million less votes than last time does not prove you have a mandate. Good luck Obama.

Stocks opened sharply lower Wednesday in the wake of President Barack Obama's re-election, triggered by worries over the looming "fiscal cliff" and as fears over Europe resurfaced.

This is just the beginning. We deserve it.

Stocks Tumble 1% Amid 'Fiscal Cliff,' EU Fears By: JeeYeon Park
CNBC.com Writer

Anyone that is surprised is either clueless or willfully ignorant.
Knowing that this would happen is like watching a slow moving train wreck happen.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Oh come on. The moocher class is the Corps getting handouts, but it also encompasses the individuals getting the handouts as well.

You know this just like everyone else.

Side note, where did the frog go?

reply to post by SaturnFX


Meh her entire philosophy is so far off it is very hard to see how anyone takes her seriously let alone give her adoration for it. Fact of it is numbnuts can take his ball and go home whenever he wants. But come tomorrow someone else will show up with a new ball. Everyone is replaceable even the self described "makers".

Originally posted by KeliOnyx
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Meh her entire philosophy is so far off it is very hard to see how anyone takes her seriously let alone give her adoration for it. Fact of it is numbnuts can take his ball and go home whenever he wants. But come tomorrow someone else will show up with a new ball. Everyone is replaceable even the self described "makers".

This is true to a degree and exactly why there is no such thing as "too big to fail". There should have been no bailouts for failing companies. They should have been allowed to crash and burn. Somebody else would have come along with a better business model and replaced them.

Just a quick note. Smith and Wesson stock is soaring today. Hmmmmmm. Just thought this was funny, considering everything else is tanking.

finance.yahoo.com...

I'm getting the feeling wall street might go down by another 500 points by the weekend. I hope I'm wrong, mind you its just a feeling I'm getting.

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Oh come on. The moocher class is the Corps getting handouts, but it also encompasses the individuals getting the handouts as well.

You know this just like everyone else.

Side note, where did the frog go?

Though I do agree that there are plenty of indivual moochers, they are a thorn in the foot, whereas the corporate oligarchy mooching and parasites are more like brain cancer...bit more significant. Once we sort the cancer out, we can focus on the thorn.

Hypnotoad is related to Kermit..he had to go hole up on Seseme St. until the election was over and the all clear was given. Should be back in the next couple days.

Originally posted by KeliOnyx
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Meh her entire philosophy is so far off it is very hard to see how anyone takes her seriously let alone give her adoration for it. Fact of it is numbnuts can take his ball and go home whenever he wants. But come tomorrow someone else will show up with a new ball. Everyone is replaceable even the self described "makers".

edit on 7-11-2012 by KeliOnyx because: (no reason given)

Are you a gamer?
The game, Bioshock, was a dystopian Ayn Rand underworld. it is actually a pretty fascinating game and environment overall.
Pure materialism, no thought or consideration to any other aspect of humanity. Of course this lead to many unfortunate side effects that is part of human nature (fully deregulated industry allowed for inhumane treatments of employees, unethical experimentation, and finally catastrophic consequences.

Granted, it was a game, so things were a bit exaggerated, but overall it was a pretty good example of the flaws in Rands vision.

Also, it only slightly worked to begin with because it literally was inside a bubble (a hidden underwater city at the oceans floor) so the "makers" had to use local labor for their agenda, and it took place in a sort of steampunk 40s/50s environment.

Bioshock Wiki

reply to post by DarthMuerte


110% agree on point that institutions and corporations should have been allowed to fail. They bet on manipulation of market forces and those market forces should have taken them down in response, any recovery was delayed by not allowing natural market to work and now we are saddled with inefficient and sickly companies that have disappeared untold billions in taxpayer debt and dollar devaluation.

Since Rand is part discussion it seems she covered this base via subsidies in her book and the resultant weight put upon the economy - corporate moochers.

Originally posted by zroth
Elohim does not approve

2nd

He is right, Elohim does not approve.

hehe I couldn't resist.

God Bless,

They aren't falling because of Obama....they are falling because there's a republican controlled house, and a democratic controlled senate....
there's not a chance anything is going to get done. It has nothing to do with Obama.

Romney's plan to fix the deficit was to LOWER taxes and INCREASE military spending. /facepalm If you think he had a plan to fix the economy, you are a moron.

But really.....our economy has been propped up artificially the past 4 years. It doesn't matter who controls the congress or who controls the white house. There wasn't a damn thing anyone could possibly do to fix our economy. It's a house of cards, and it's been set to come down for a while.

Originally posted by Ghost375
They aren't falling because of Obama....they are falling because there's a republican controlled house, and a democratic controlled senate....
there's not a chance anything is going to get done. It has nothing to do with Obama.

Romney's plan to fix the deficit was to LOWER taxes and INCREASE military spending. /facepalm If you think he had a plan to fix the economy, you are a moron.

But really.....our economy has been propped up artificially the past 4 years. It doesn't matter who controls the congress or who controls the white house. There wasn't a damn thing anyone could possibly do to fix our economy. It's a house of cards, and it's been set to come down for a while.

All the money that those banks claimed they needed to avert collapse was sent to the Chinese to add to the trillions of dollars lost during the burst of the housing bubble on the global market.
In reality our stock market and monetary systems are fake; meaning that there is nothing holding them in place except the illusion that they have stabilized since the Stock Market Crash nearly 5 years ago.

Let's not forget to mention gas prices are going back up while oil stock prices are going down.

It's not a new 4 years of Barrack Obama it's just the last 4 years starting over.

Kind of like your birthday...Technically you're a year older, but you feel like you did the day before your birthday.