The USA is not the holy messiah of human rights

reply to post by lobotomizemecapin


I know where you are coming from. I guess from the reverse of the sentiment. I once made a thread about how the US is blamed for Europe's imperialism, got banned, and all because someone blew up a statement about Hitler, a historical figure I would like to see die several times, each a little worse.

But whatever. You are right to say that the enemy is not the people. That much we agree on. This hype about the US´s evils is just as bad though IMO because it hides the complicity and mainly the leadership of what we have come to know as the NWO.

It is not Obama, that much should be obvious.

Tensions run high with these subjects, and we have to disconnect when it gets too close to home. If not it is fair game for the counter argument, in whatever form and in light of what ever sentiment you provoke it in.

Again, just realize most people in the US don't think they are the greatest country in the world. We just think we are great. Big difference. One is pride in our accomplishments. The other is Vanity and pompous glee.

Originally posted by manykapao
reply to post by lobotomizemecapin

 

I know where you are coming from. I guess from the reverse of the sentiment. I once made a thread about how the US is blamed for Europe's imperialism, got banned, and all because someone blew up a statement about Hitler, a historical figure I would like to see die several times, each a little worse.

But whatever. You are right to say that the enemy is not the people. That much we agree on. This hype about the US evils is just as bad though IMO because it hides the complicity and mainly the leadership of what we have come to know as the NWO.

It is not Obama, that much should be obvious.

Tensions run high with these subjects, and we have to disconnect when it gets too close to home. If not it is fair game for the counter argument, in whatever form the sentiment you provoke brings it.

Again, just realize most people in the US don't think they are the greatest country in the world. We just think we are great. Big difference. One is pride in our accomplishments. The other is Vanity and pompous glee.

edit on 5-11-2012 by manykapao because: (no reason given)

I know it probably wont mean anything to you whatsoever, But by this statement and your clarification I have come to see you as a different person than I did based on your previous posts in both these related threads.

Good to see I can be eye to eye with someone I at first glance assumed to be something they were not.
I only mention that because in this present time I think clear understanding is vital to help get things in order to make the US a better country. Misunderstandings are a detriment to progress these days it seems.

I think its easy for people to get pissed at America as a whole and forget that it isn't the people who are wrong but the PTB. I basically think in general most of the American population is as much a victim of as anyone else in the world. I took your advice and left the US and have been living in several countries (3rd world) since 2001.
I came back and joined the US Army in 2006 to 09, and then went back over seas. The reason is simply because I feel I have more freedom here than I did in the states.

At the drop of a hat however, I would certainly defend the US constitutionally from invaders, be they politicians or foreign Armies.

Thanks for clarifying your points though.

Originally posted by manykapao
Oh great an ATS favorite, USA bashing. Does all that dribble have a single.mention of Europe's.CENTURIES of.abuses and imperialism over the globe or is it just centered around a few decades of.the US doing Europe's.dirty work.

Yes. America The Great! Once again excusing their own atrocities because...hey..."at least we aren't as bad as Hitler and Stalin".

Nothing says "Greatness" like holding yourself up to some of the worst examples and lowest standards in all of recorded human history. It's sorta like bragging about how brilliant you are to room full of people with Down Syndrome. Good job, buddy!! You beat the cognitively impaired in a battle of wits!!

...and for our next feat we will bravely defeat a coma patient in a boxing match! Then we will rank our infrastructure against that Haiti...I betcha we win that one too!! Hip-Hip-HOORAY!! YAY FOR AMERICA!! We are better than the absolute bottom of the barrel!!!

When the going gets tough...Americans lower the bar!!

reply to post by snowen20


nah man, no hard feelings, means something to me for sure.

I think we have more in common than we thought at first. I am glad we had this chance to know each other.

I myself have been living in Europe for the last 5 years. I have never been more appreciative of my home than now. I used to be very focused on the negative aspects of the USA.

I now feel that love of country I had as a child. Not in its innocence, but in its purity.

I want to join the military when I can I get back. I want to move back as soon as possible. I feel ready now. I left for similar reasons as yourself. Now I don't care though. I just want to be with my people and in my land.

I don't know. I still know everything my Government does, did, and will probably do. It really doesn't change anything for me though. It used to, but not anymore.

I am not the biggest fan of the US government, to put it very mildly. I just don't care anymore. I´ll take what we got, because it means I can be with my people again.

I too plan on moving to a third world country to retire though, Mexico. I will be buried there next to my wife. That is in honor to her. But I love my home, and sometimes that emotion can cloud my judgment.

In the end we are not that different.

Have a good one man.

reply to post by milominderbinder


blah.

Originally posted by manykapao

Again, just realize most people in the US don't think they are the greatest country in the world. We just think we are great. Big difference. One is pride in our accomplishments. The other is Vanity and pompous glee.

Believe it or not...I DO agree with you on that statement.

However...I personally believe that re-hashing the "America is Great" argument by resting on our WWII laurels is a recipe for disaster.

I DO NOT believe America is great. Hell...I don't even believe America is "good".

I think we COULD BE "good" or "great" again. But right now?? This country is a festering wound. It's rotting from the inside out, we are corrupt beyond belief, experts at winning battles and losing wars, and our chief export is obnoxious pop culture and civilian casualties. And that's our just our GOVERNMENT. Don't even get me STARTED on how willfully ignorant THE PEOPLE are who enable this to go on.

I think admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery. Defending our actions by saying "yeah...but at least we aren't as bad as Europe" sounds a whole lot like the alcoholic wife-beater who doesn't think he has a problem because he goes to work everyday.

BEING the best STARTS with SETTLING for nothing but the BEST. Every time we excuse our civil rights record because "at least it isn't Darfur"...all we are really doing is lowering the bar and ensuring mediocrity at best.

reply to post by milominderbinder


But right there,

We could be great again.....compared to what? our WW2 laurels?

I think we are great for many reasons. We feed millions of people, educate them, provide medical services, water, security, ect.

We do allot of good as well mixed in with all the BS too. We protect international shipping lanes, we send allot of aid to troubled areas, we are key players in world events, leaders in technology and medical advancements, innovations in existing technology, ect.

I know it is not perfect. But the government will not take my country away from me. Not my love of it, not my heart. THAT IS MINE.

They took enough.

I see where you are coming from, but I see allot of good too. Maybe my story is different than yours, I don't know.

I love the US, the people, our customs, our history. I love it, deeply. I used to hate it. In a way I think I just had to step away from it and not think about it, and see who I was at heart. I am an American. Not because my passport says so. I truly choose to be.

Either way, we are still human, all of us. That doesn't change.

but you know what?

even without the bragging rights. I love the USA for New York, vacations in Florida, driving across the desert with desert music on the radio, the Rockies, the Adirondacks, fall in upstate NY, small town USA, pie, NYC pizza, ice cream men, the wild west and its awe, crazy and fun California people, hippie west coasters, cars, love our cars, our highways, good driving, sports, I hate sports, but love the atmosphere, Boston and its endless bear,

I could go on, but really the love I have is for my people and my land. I don't care if we invent the next micro chip, or are the best military force on the planet. That means little to me. The other stuff, that I will always miss. That is in my heart.

They will never take that love away from me. They did once, and I will never let them do it again.
It is all I am. What I choose to be.

oh, fourth of july BBQ......

The USA is not the holy messiah of human rights

Whats new..?

sec.line.

But right there,

We could be great again.....compared to what? our WW2 laurels?

You bring up a good point. I suppose ALL comparisons are relative by their nature. However...I would say that our current rankings in things are more important than what we have historically done.

I could cite all kinds of categories...but Jeff Daniels speech here does it better than I could ever hope to do.

I know it is not perfect. But the government will not take my country away from me. Not my love of it, not my heart. THAT IS MINE.

They took enough.

Understood. I see where you are coming from too. However...I'm just a firm believer that the ONLY way to really BE THE BEST is to be OUR OWN harshest critics. Michael Jordan used to shoot free throws by himself for 2-3 hours after every practice when everybody else went home....despite the fact that he is generally considered to be the greatest basketball player to ever live. Why? Because for Michael Jordan...the COACHES didn't demand enough and weren't critical enough. That's WHY Michael Jordan was the best. It's not a coincidence.

I see where you are coming from, but I see allot of good too. Maybe my story is different than yours, I don't know.

I love the US, the people, our customs, our history. I love it, deeply. I used to hate it. In a way I think I just had to step away from it and not think about it, and see who I was at heart. I am an American. Not because my passport says so. I truly choose to be.

Either way, we are still human, all of us. That doesn't change.

Agreed. And believe it or not...I'm right on board with you. In fact...I love the country so much I'm convinced that we need to be our own harshest critics at all times without exception. It isn't fair...but it's not about being fair. It's about being the best no matter what it takes. And in my opinion that STARTS with not making excuses.

Originally posted by manykapao
but you know what?

even without the bragging rights. I love the USA for New York, vacations in Florida, driving across the desert with desert music on the radio, the Rockies, the Adirondacks, fall in upstate NY, small town USA, pie, NYC pizza, ice cream men, the wild west and its awe, crazy and fun California people, hippie west coasters, cars, love our cars, our highways, good driving, sports, I hate sports, but love the atmosphere, Boston and its endless bear,

I could go on, but really the love I have is for my people and my land. I don't care if we invent the next micro chip, or are the best military force on the planet. That means little to me. The other stuff, that I will always miss. That is in my heart.

They will never take that love away from me. They did once, and I will never let them do it again.
It is all I am. What I choose to be.

oh, fourth of july BBQ......

edit on 5-11-2012 by manykapao because: (no reason given)

Most of those things I don't care a whole lot about either.

But I do think it's mighty important to rank #1 in terms of least amount of incarcerated population, lowest infant mortality, least amount of innocent civilians killed by drone attacks, etc.

The things that TRULY make a society great are not the fact they invented a new computer chip. It's that they can do things that matter that doesn't require holding people at gunpoint, bribing them, or identifying a way to make obscene amount of money off of the effort.

My best friend shot himself in the head last year because he was a graduate of the school of Americas in the 80s and performed black ops in South America.From him a whole new world of awful opened up to me and now I follow conspiracies.I know some nasty facts I can say here but I equally know our government has been paid for since Kennedy was removed in a coup.The people who try to make things right keep fighting the BS because when we stop the world goes down.I don't require belief just educate yourselves because my generation is dying from the chemical assault on our foods, Medicine for profit and we are trully sick and tired of the naysayers who are so self absorbed they appear to be surgically attached to cell phones an artificial cultures devise by media.

Originally posted by manykapao


The US is not the whatever nonsense messiah title this thread has. No one is, but on the other hand the US has NEVER CLAIMED such a title.

I have to point out, that yes, they do claim that what they are doing in the middle east is 'spreading democracy and freedom', which of course is doublespeak.
I do see your point, I don't think anyone is better. We Canadians claim to be 'Peacekeepers', which is more doublespeak, as a fellow Canadian has pointed out. The point is, a lot of deluded people believe that crap, both the fact that Canadians are do-good peacekeepers and that American's are spreading freedom and democracy.

Very thoughtful posts from everyone, and in explaining yourselves, we are really all on the same page, it seems to me.

THEY CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH: ,

an, Contributor
theintelhub.com
November 5, 2012

Far and away, America’s human rights record is the world’s worst. No other nation approaches its unprincipled history. Earlier crimes against humanity were largely internal and regional.

Twentieth century ones went global. New millennium ones elevated atrocities and other human rights abuses to an unprecedented level. It keeps rising. America is guilty of virtually every crime imaginable and then some.

Former dovish US diplomat, advisor, and father of Soviet containment George Kennan explained what reflects America’s post-WW II foreign and domestic policy. His February 1948 “Memo PPS23″ said:

“(W)e have 50% of the world’s wealth but only 6.3% of its population. (It makes us) the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships (to let us) maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national society.”

“To do so we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and daydreaming; and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world benefaction….”

“We should dispense with the aspiration to ‘be liked’ or to be regarded as the repository of a high-minded international altruism.”

“We should (stop talking about) unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living standards, and democratization.”

“The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are hampered by idealistic slogans (ideas and practices), the better.”

Ravaging one nation after another followed. America today wages multiple direct and proxy wars. US military bases infest the world. CIA elements operate everywhere. US special forces perform various military related services globally. Wherever they show up, they’re killers, not protectors.

Domestically, America is more battleground than homeland. FBI, CIA, NSA, FEMA, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), Border Patrol, and other federal agencies work jointly with state and local authorities against the interests of most US residents.

Anyone can be arrested, charged, prosecuted, and imprisoned for any reason or none at all. By presidential diktat, any US citizen at home or abroad can be murdered.

Others can be arrested and detained indefinitely uncharged in military prisons. Innocence is no defense. State terrorism is policy at home and abroad. That’s how police states operate.

Freedom, human rights, and other democratic values are non-starters. Supporting what’s right is hazardous. Challenging Washington’s right to dominate globally risks persecution or death. America is unfit and unsafe to live in.

For the past 13 years, China’s State Council Information Office published comprehensive reports on US human rights. Its most recent is titled “The Human Rights Record of the United States in 2011.”

It said America’s State Department publishes annual human rights reports for over 190 countries. It turns a blind eye to its own appalling record. China explains what Washington and supportive media suppress.

Its latest May 2012 report reveals America’s “true human rights situation….and urges the United States to confront its own actions.” Six topics are covered:

(1) life, property and personal security;

(2) civil and political rights;

(3) economic, social and cultural rights;

(4) racial discrimination;

(5) women’s and children’s rights; and

(6) human rights violations abroad.

China’s report reveals “a small yet illustrative fraction of the United States’ dismal record on its own human rights situation.”

America’s “tarnished human rights record has left it in no state – whether on a moral, political or legal basis – to act as the world’s human rights justice, to place itself above other countries and release the Country Reports on Human Rights Practices year after year (that) accuse and blame other countries.”

At the same time, it absolves itself through silence, duplicity, and/or bald-faced lies. According to the State Department:

“The protection of fundamental human rights was a foundation stone in the establishment of the United States over 200 years ago.”

“Since then, a central goal of U.S. foreign policy has been the promotion of respect for human rights, as embodied in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.”

“The United States understands that the existence of human rights helps secure the peace, deter aggression, promote the rule of law, combat crime and corruption, strengthen democracies, and prevent humanitarian crises.”

China’s report advised Washington to clean up its own act at home, stop interfering in the internal affairs of other countries, and “cease using double standards on human rights” to advance its own imperial agenda.

Beijing accused Washington of “severe” human and civil rights violations. At the same time, it claims Americans live in the “land of the free.”

Why then were around 1,000 peaceful Occupy Wall Street protesters arrested in the early weeks of their campaign? Police brutality was brutal and unconscionable. It continues to reflect despotism, not democracy.

America furthers “international disorder.” It tramples on the rights of global citizens and its own. It operates the world’s largest domestic gulag. It’s also one of the most repressive.

Press freedom is a figure of speech. Dominant media sources produce propaganda and other forms of managed news and information. Truth is a scarce commodity. Constitutional freedoms are denied.

Money power runs America. Predatory capitalism benefits at the expense of most others. Congress is infested with millionaires. Complicit with corporate crooks, they harm ordinary people and wage war on humanity.

America’s 1% benefits at the expense of most others. Social America is eroding en route to disappearing altogether. Resisters face harsh crackdowns.

Poverty is at record levels. So is homelessness, hunger, and overall deprivation. Racism is institutionalized. Basic needs go unmet. Praying to the wrong God is called terrorism. Numerous other human rights abuses reveal a nation unfit to live in.

America’s human rights record is appalling. Political prisoners fill its gulag. Dissent is criminalized. Police state laws target resisters. Torture is official policy. So is permanent war on the world.

Peace, stability and security are four-letter words. Elections are farcical. Duopoly power controls them. Ordinary people have no say.

State Department charges against other nations are mostly uncorroborated. China uses data from the US Justice Department (DOJ), FBI, other US agencies, state ones, think tanks, as well as domestic and international media.

They reveal a far different America than Washington or scoundrel media reflect. Dark truths are exposed to the light of day. They’re in plain sight for anyone to see.

On October 19, RIA Novosti headlined “US Takes Flak Over Human Rights Record,” saying:

Russia’s Foreign Ministry denounced America’s human rights record. It cited “maltreatment of children, breach of privacy, police brutality, secret jails and freedom of expression issues.”

Russia’s lower house State Duma got the report. On October 22, it’ll hold hearings on human rights. A “Duma source privy to the document” told RIA Novosti that “hundreds of thousands of children in the United States are mistreated….”

In 2010 alone, around 1,600 deaths resulted. Special attention was given to how adopted Russian children are treated. Citing US NGOs, Russia’s Foreign Ministry said “about one police officer in 100 has been involved in criminal abuses, including sexual harassment, indecent behavior or rape.”

America has the largest domestic gulag. Numerous secret prisons operate abroad. Internal spying is out-of-control. Privacy is routinely violated.

Last December, another Russian report criticized America’s human rights record. On December 28, Russia Today (rt.com) headlined “US violating human rights at home and abroad: Russian report,” saying:

Russia’s Foreign Ministry discussed numerous US domestic and foreign human rights abuses. On the pretext of fighting terrorism alone, fundamental rights are denied.

“The situation in the United States….is far from the ideals proclaimed in Washington,” the report said. “The incumbent administration continues to apply most of the methods of controlling society and interfering in the private lives of the American people that were adopted….under George Bush on the pretext of combating terror.”

Russia also condemned “the exterritorial application of US legislation (that) seriously harms Russian-US relations.”

“It leads to violations of the basic rights and freedoms of Russians, including arbitrary arrests and abductions from third countries, cruel treatment, criminal prosecution on the basis of evidence given by false agents and doubtful evidence.”

Washington-led NATO was accused of appalling human rights abuses. Civilian casualties it’s responsible for “provide a portrait of” military recklessness and lawlessness.

Crimes of war and against humanity define its operations. Eyewitnesses provide damning evidence.

Democracy at home is hypocrisy, not real. It exists in name only. Fundamental freedoms are absent or endangered. Speaking truth to power is hazardous.

The state of America at home and abroad is appalling. Indisputable evidence reveals a record reflecting tyranny. Conditions aren’t improving.

They’re worsening en route to institutionalizing total police state control. It’s fast approaching. No one is safe anymore for good reason. Humanity is at risk.

America’s agenda reflects unchallenged dominance no matter the cost. Truth is the most dangerous disinfectant. Suppressing it is policy. Propaganda wars precede hot ones. Human rights and civil liberties are denied for our own good.

Patriotism means going along or else. Humanity may not survive unless policies this out-of-control are stopped. Awareness enough to do it is sorely lacking. Hopefully something will change before it’s too late.

Stephen Lendman lives in Chicago and can be reached at [email protected].

His new book is titled “How Wall Street Fleeces America: Privatized Banking, Government Collusion and Class War”

Stephen Lendman lives in Chicago and can be reached at [email protected]. His new book is titled How Wall Street Fleeces America: Privatized Banking, Government Collusion and Class War

Also visit his blog site at sjlendman.blogspot.com and listen to cutting-edge discussions with distinguished guests on the Progressive Radio News Hour on the Progressive Radio Network Thursdays at 10AM US Central time and Saturdays and Sundays at noon. All programs are archived for easy listening.

www.progressiveradionetwork.com...

Join theintelhub.com FORUMS to Talk About Articles Like This One - ENTER NOW
Related Articles and Interesting Reports
America’s Schools: Breeding Grounds for Compliant Citizens

reply to post by manykapao

eh, whatever. I will apologize even though no one made the distinction of the US government, and the people, OR mentioned their own countries faults

Just a couple posts above yours...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

They just got real good P.R. masters of propaganda, just remember its not Americans, its the media and a whole bunch of self righteous wankers, every country has got them, some just get more air time than others, I cant think of many places in the world where some one or a group of some one's is forcing what they believe to be right on any one around them, major false sense of superiority, similar to this thread actually

I think some people who “bash” the US (and Europe for that matter) should really do a bit of travelling. You would soon discover that the rest of the world is worse by a long margin.

We can all find examples of questionable and abhorrent actions by the US in recent times, whether it’s abuse in Abu Ghraib or some other example. However, these are not policy nor are they widespread and institutionalized.

“The USA is not the holy messiah of human rights”. This is true. However, it is a damned sight better than almost all other nations. What the US has is oversight and scrutiny. We all have seen Abu Ghraib and know all the facts. What most people seem to forget is that torture and abuse is commonplace and routine in many countries and there is no oversight and the facts are hidden. China, Iran etc...

Regards

Originally posted by gladtobehere
reply to post by lobotomizemecapin

 

Not the holy messiah?

The US government has led the World in crimes against humanity.

The only nation to actually use nuclear weapons and that on a civilian population, not once but twice.

The use of chemical weapons, agent orange and napalm on civilians, women and children.

Torture, false flag terrorism, the overthrow of entire nations, wars of aggression over lies...

One would have to be a mental patient to deny the US government's role in global terror.

Edit***

Just one example with regards to your last thread.

During the Nuremberg trials, one of the most severe charges against the Germans was their intentional bombardment of dams. Less than a decade later, the US employed the exact same tactic against the Koreans.

edit on 4-11-2012 by gladtobehere because: (no reason given)

Dont forget the Deplented Uranium Rounds of all size's in Iraq & Afganistan

you know Gulf War Syndrome , and Low Level Radiation On Middle Eastern Civilians
and the Soldiers Themselves

Gulf War Vets site
Gulf War Syndrome Deplented Uranium
www.gulfwarvets.com...

As an American citizen, born and bred, I am entirely ashamed of the conduct of our "elected" leaders. Most of the worlds' governments are operated by sociopaths; newsflash!

Originally posted by lobotomizemecapin

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Well OP... You've done an outstanding job of showing America's faults and why we have problems in our own Human Rights. I don't recall anyone saying the Uncle Sammy Character walks on water, either.

Is there a major power in the world today that is better? I'm dying to hear our 'better' for human rights records and daily conduct for this area. Major power now....Apples to Apples.. Comparing the U.S. to Monaco or Tonga doesn't really count..

I never said anything about the USA being the worst I am simply pointing out that the US is no better than the rest of the world.

I am sick of hearing about how we are so pure of mind and heart and that we never are at fault.

The saviours of the human race we are.

There are places in the world that are worse but my point is that the whole world is run by tyrants and the evils being committed by the US are just as heinous as those happening in china the middle east russia etc etc

I agree, Americans are not the saviors of the human race. I don't like the idea of depending on military might nor government, nor the music industry, nor the movie industry, and especially not the food industry ooh and don't get me started on the medical establishment.. My point is, within my short twenty four years of existence I have experienced a lot of strange things and my gosh did I mention that I do not trust the majority of churches here?
While I would LOVE to be pure of mind and heart and never at fault, it just isn't so. However, shouldn't I try?
I mean how can you love something if you've never even tried it? I think that's the reason that the bible said in Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good; How blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him!
Let this verse be for every eye who sees.