America, a nation of cowards!

I think that in some senses the youth of our nation has gotten slightly wimpier. I'm 17, and I'll admit to that(Not saying that I'm wimpy). There are good things about that as well as bad things. They're not as thick-headed anymore. I would say that they think for themselves more; however, I am discovering more and more that they're not really thinking for themselves more, just changing who they follow. Instead of following the political war propoganda, it's more of the MTV anti-war, "rock the vote" type of thing which I consider to be just as bad.

I know that when I was younger, and getting picked on in junior high-school (I rarely got picked on, but I think just about EVERYONE had one bully in Junior-high), I was wondering what to do. The schools now adays are MUCH stricter when it comes to fighting and violence, and I didn't want to be kicked out or suspended. My mom brought this up to my grandfather who was one of those "American Hero" types (Would love to talk about him more in the other threads. Some people here might even know of him!), and he just told me to "Knock his block off" and don't take anything from him. We never wound up getting in any fight, and I think this is mainly attributable to what Machine was talking about. When I confronted him...he backed down. I bet back int he 70's he wouldn't have backed down haha.

About the military. I do have great respect for our troops in the military. My grandfather, as I stated, did many amazing things. My uncle is a green beret, special forces and part of the 101st airborn division, although he's getting out of the army now. Currently, I'm not thinking of joining the military. Although I do support our men and women's choice to voluntarily protect our rights as citizens, I have things planned out in my future..that coupled with the fact that, when I stop lying to myself, I realize that I'm just not quite brave enough to give up all I have, and all I have planned out for my life. As many may know, I'm a conservative and I do support this war. I think that we should give our men and women in the service the respect they deserve regardless of which political position you choose.

Sorry if this went off topic...mod's can delete it if they have to

[Edited on 22-10-2004 by Herman]

Ugh, you obviously have a distorted view of America.

You see, my friend, after 9/11, what happened? The big dog got it's cage rattled - and everyone - including kids - wanted to fight back.

So, no, we haven't lost our warrior spirit that we were born on. In fact, though I am not a kid, and have served, I have a cousin (about 12 years younger than me) that wants to join the service.

So, no, I think we still have this warrior spirt - and, personally, I feel offended when you generalize our youth as smoking pot, playing games (which isn't bad in moderation), and have sex.

In fact, most of my family excersises regulary, attends masses, etc etc. Far from what you have stated here, sir.

-wD

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
John, that was great hippie rhetoric. �First of all you do not need war to have peace, you need to have peace to have peace.� Of course, it means little, no matter how good it might look to a �peacenik� if it were put on a T-shirt. You cannot wish peace into existence, and ignoring threats against your nation and thinking loving thoughts do not make your family safe. Standing up to the threat and destroying it is the only way to attain real peace. Otherwise, peace only means the lack of violence, and after a nation is conquered by their enemy and any attempt to struggle is quashed, their preference of peace will be instated. But is that really peace, the kind we imagine? No, that is what cowards get and deserve.

You have friends and family who serve? How about that? So do I. I also served my country, and it was during a time when another president got continuously hammered by the weak and cowardly for being a warmonger and a threat to the entire world. Guess what? The cowardly liberal and the limp-spined left were wrong then, too.

I think you made a Freudian slip when you typed �worrier�. Regardless, let me clarify a couple things. A warrior fights or stands ready to fight for his nation. That has nothing to do with �putting food on the table�, but he does get paid for his service. Putting food on the table can be done more effectively in the civilian sector. A warrior also does not question the orders of his leaders. His must assume his leaders have a larger picture of the situation and act accordingly. It has nothing to do with blindness. It is called discipline. "

Ok, it's not hippie rhetoric, I thought belittling went out here with the mud pit. You and I and most the people on the planet aren't smart enough to figure out a better way than (as you put it) "Standing up to the threat and destroying it" but that doesn't mean I have to accept dead children as an acceptable side effect to ANY "threat." Your example is lacking the picture that I put fourth of stopping people in power who want more power, that is what war is. It's about the power to make another submit to your will through atrocity and violence to obtain your goal. The US armed forces aren't healed in a high esteem in the government they are looked at as fodder to obtain personal and political power. If it was so great a cause we are fighting with real freedom on the line than the children of those in power would be out there too.

It is easy to stand up and say let's kill umm all, it's hard to sit and think of a better way.

To follow what you are told to do without question is BLIND by definition. I don't know what type of logic you used to say it isn't but it is not coherent. It is the lack of questions by the US army and by the Iraq army (who kept sadam in power) that got us in this mess in the first place. You are standing up more for the causes of war and looking down at finding a better way.

When you goto sleep tonight think about this picture, this is the price of so called freedom, this is the price of people in power wanting more power. This is the price of BLINDLY following what you are told to do and there are thousands of more examples just like it. After you are done with "destroying" the threat you can explain to this child's mother and father how their 2 year old was blown to bits because president Bush made the right call and decided it needed to be done. If you're the type of guy who can stomach this type of stuff and justify it than I have no respect for you.

Originally posted by Machine
JOHNSmith

I have served my country both as an Airborne Soldier and as a Deputy Sheriff. Both jobs have put me in mortal danger several times during my employment. But you might just be right. If you and others like you refuse to pay your fair share then people like me might have to take a third and fourth bite at the apple. The brave have always carried the load that cowards refuse to lift.

Speaking of making assertions, how the hell do you know what I refuse to do and not do? How, for instance, do you know that I have not served in the military? How do you know that I am not an CIA employee? Where do you get off making assumptions about me, or anyone else? Some of us who have served our nation are just a little quieter about it.

There are many reasons people join the military. You discredit yourself and everyone who has served by condemning every reason besides bravery.

And if America and other brainwashed, war mongering, hateful countries that were blindly following their leaders hadn't stepped in...this might still be going on. Or worse.

[Edited on 22-10-2004 by Herman]

Herman,

Well said, on both of your last posts.



Rain King,

I stand by what I said.

No, John, that is not Pit material, it is calling it what it is: Hippie Rhetoric. Would you have liked to tell the Brits a few decades ago that all they need to understand is that little one-liner? I doubt they would have grasped the concept; especially after Chamberlain proved the fallacy of that the deadly way. Maybe you�d like to go and explain that notion to the enemy. I would suggest you have a shirt with a high, titanium collar else wise you�ll come home in two boxes. No, its just rhetoric that means nothing when spoken to the ones who are in the defensive position and will obviously mean nothing to the aggressors. You don�t have to accept dead children; you may bury your head in the sand. I know of nobody else who has cleaned up warfare as much as we have, so go and explain that bit to others who might need a lecture in the evils of killing more than we do. I�d start with the one who killed the little Iraqi girl for merely waving at an American GI as we entered Baghdad. Never mind, hopefully a good, decent American soldier has already blown that creature away.

I don�t believe anyone has said something as ludicrous as �Killem� all� so why not stay rational, huh? All you are doing is trying to muddy the water with nonsense. You say we should find a better way. After 6,000 years of human conflict, you think that just because you want a better way we�re going to find it. Well, come up with it, friend. I�m sure the world would love it. Right now, we need to make sure that the terrorists don�t have another chance at hitting us, and we darned sure better insure they don�t do it with any NBC weapons.

My concept of being a warrior? As a former one of those, the concept that is real. What concept did you have, or do you have any experience at that sort of thing? Maybe you are just tossing in your abstract opinion about a concept you don�t have any experience. I explained it; if you don�t understand its because you prefer not to.

I won�t go to bed at night thinking of anything you�re trying to tell me in a pipedream. You just go to bed at night realizing that you are lucky the first several attacks by the enemy didn�t kill you and that there are brave people working and dying to make sure there isn�t another attack to do you in.

Originally posted by WeBDeviL


So, no, we haven't lost our warrior spirit that we were born on.
So, no, I think we still have this warrior spirt - and, personally, I feel offended when you generalize our youth as smoking pot, playing games (which isn't bad in moderation), and have sex.
In fact, most of my family excersises regulary, attends masses, etc etc. Far from what you have stated here, sir.

Amazing you say this like its a good thing to want to kill (sorry sign up) and get brainwashed in church every sunday!
No I think my view of america is re-enforced right here, right now with statments like that.

opps

[edit on 22-10-2004 by SpittinCobra]

I would be proud to be called a hippy, The loved people for people. They wanted peace.

I love how they pot they where smokeing made them want to kill?



[Edited on 22-10-2004 by SpittinCobra]

Originally posted by Herman
And if America and other brainwashed, war mongering, hateful countries that were blindly following their leaders hadn't stepped in...this might still be going on. Or worse.

If the people and soldiers BLINDLY following the orders of a mad man has stepped up and not killed all those jewish people and taken hitler out of power it wouldn't have happened either. It is the responsibility of everyone to put a stop to stuff like this.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I doubt they would have grasped the concept; especially after Chamberlain proved the fallacy of that the deadly way. Maybe you�d like to go and explain that notion to the enemy.

Yes I would love to explain that it is the responsibility of the people and the soldiers and the scientists and the government not to let atrocities happen. We've killed more innocent people in Iraq than Sadam has killed in the last 10 years. You tell me who is right here and who is wrong. You tell me that if your child had been blown into bits that you wouldn't be picking up the closest RPG and calling for blood. Both sides are monsters, the US army went into bagdad under orders to "kill anything that moves." That sounds a lot like "kill'em all" to me.

You don�t have to accept dead children; you may bury your head in the sand. I know of nobody else who has cleaned up warfare as much as we have, so go and explain that bit to others who might need a lecture in the evils of killing more than we do. I�d start with the one who killed the little Iraqi girl for merely waving at an American GI as we entered Baghdad. Never mind, hopefully a good, decent American soldier has already blown that creature away.

It was a US bomb that killed that little girl, who do you think you are trying to spin such a gross indiscriminate taking of such a young life. "good decent american soldier!!!" we're all people, you can demonize the "enemy" all you want, and maybe some people are monsters, but we have those same people in power here. There are a lot of Decent people where ever you go who want the same things as everyone else, being an 18 year old just out of high school and wearing a US army uniform doesn't make you any more decent than an 18 year old Iraqie who just got out of HS. There is no glory in killing, there is no glory in war. It is a concept we had to invent to make the pain of murdering another person seem exceptable.

My concept of being a warrior? As a former one of those, the concept that is real. What concept did you have, or do you have any experience at that sort of thing? Maybe you are just tossing in your abstract opinion about a concept you don�t have any experience. I explained it; if you don�t understand its because you prefer not to.

I think I understand it a bit better than you do and that's the problem

I won�t go to bed at night thinking of anything you�re trying to tell me in a pipedream. You just go to bed at night realizing that you are lucky the first several attacks by the enemy didn�t kill you and that there are brave people working and dying to make sure there isn�t another attack to do you in.

Sorry, I'm not sure how you associate thousands of dead innocent Iraqes as meaning freedom and safety for me? What was it that Iraq had to do with 9/11? Sadam was a threat to his own people, sure, a threat to me? I doubt it. You're twisting the facts here, just like Bush did to get us into this little illegal war. Now a lot of people are dead and the justification is flying.

Originally posted by Rain King

Originally posted by Machine
JOHNSmith

I have served my country both as an Airborne Soldier and as a Deputy Sheriff. Both jobs have put me in mortal danger several times during my employment. But you might just be right. If you and others like you refuse to pay your fair share then people like me might have to take a third and fourth bite at the apple. The brave have always carried the load that cowards refuse to lift.

Speaking of making assertions, how the hell do you know what I refuse to do and not do? Where do you get off making assumptions about me, or anyone else? Some of us who have served our nation are just a little quieter about it.

There are many reasons people join the military. You discredit yourself and everyone who has served by condemning every reason besides bravery.

I'm sorry I have no idea what you are talking about, you're going to have to be a little more specific. I didn't make any statements about you.

Originally posted by J0HNSmith

Originally posted by Herman
And if America and other brainwashed, war mongering, hateful countries that were blindly following their leaders hadn't stepped in...this might still be going on. Or worse.

If the people and soldiers BLINDLY following the orders of a mad man has stepped up and not killed all those jewish people and taken hitler out of power it wouldn't have happened either. It is the responsibility of everyone to put a stop to stuff like this.

Yeah, good point. And we needed war to stop him. Some people just can't be reasoned with.

Originally posted by Machine
Now it seems all these kids want to do is have sex, smoke dope and play video games!

And what's wrong with that? Having sex and playing Video Games is fun stuff . I wouldn't know about the pot since I've never smoked any.

they obviously figured out that military is just a tool. It feeds the rich while it buries the poor.

Originally posted by TheBigD
they obviously figured out that military is just a tool. It feeds the rich while it buries the poor.

Man that is complete crap. How do you think your statements go with the Soldiers, not conscripts I might add...

Hi,

I know this thread is almost two decades old, but I'm resurrecting it because the title of this thread is now relevant to the situation today where supporters of former president Donald Trump are being castigated and stigmatized as a pack of political cowards who claim that Obamacare-type healthcare initiatives are socialist in nature, refuse to accept that Trump lost the 2020 presidential election, and ignore that the notion of religious prayer violates one of the amendments in the Bill of Rights that preaches the separation of the church and state.

Links:
www.newsobserver.com...
www.inquirer.com...
ndsmcobserver.com...