America, a nation of cowards!

Originally posted by Corinthas
Well flyersfan all i can suggest is you have a chat to my old mate ghandi on the subject of "fighting fighting with fighting"... becase the principles involved with passive and peaceful resistance seem to have passed you by.

The same Ghandi who told the German and polish jews they should use civil disobedience on the Nazis?

Or the Ghandi who told his followers to wait until the End of WW2 to force the issue, so that they wouldn't distract the british?

Even visionaries can be flip-floppers

Originally posted by FlyersFan
You really aren't making any sense.

A person is a bigot because they state the fact that
............

no, your a bigot because the poster is liberal and you don't agree....therefore you must be a bigot or a racist.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by BasementAddix
do you expect everything to be "perfect" in Iraq overnight?...It will take a few years...that (hopefully) should be obvious...

Reconstruction of Japan and Germany after WWII took at least 4 years.

That was very nice of America to do that. We didn't have to help in
reconstruction. It was Japan and Germany that attacked and destroyed
everyone else. We, the victors, could have left them in rubble. But
being the very generous country that we are, America, and our allies,
rebuilt those two countries and restructured their political systems
so that they (probably) wouldn't be able to attack anyone again in the
near future.

It was also wise. Leave a country an economic and social disaster and the country will turn into another tyranny. Also if the US didn't prop up Germany and Japan, the countries would have been taken over by the USSR.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Corinthas
It was because the Allies had left the looser to the rubble and the Verseilles treaty after WW1... so the US HAD tried that route but it seemed to start another war.

Whatever. I see it differently. Either way ... reconstruction took
at least four years.

Why have i labled you a bigot?

Just have a look at your responce to my attempt at postulating a counter point to yours about how philanthropic the US was after WW2.

Whatever... i see it differently.... (this is IGNORING my piont i.e IGNORANCE!!)

What that the WW1 didn't happen?!?! The allies didn't just leave the loosers to clean up their own rubble and the versailles treaty?!??! Or you just "don't" see it that way?

Originally posted by heelstone
Are you forgetting that this is a conspiracy board? Conspiracy is primarily a liberal subject seeing as how its usually about world altering things. I'm not sure about conservatives, but I do know that most people who want peace are liberals. As such there will be a preponderance of liberal anti-war people on this message board.

As far as signing up for the military to protect our freedoms, there first has to be a valid war in which to go fight for these freedoms. Iraq posed no threat to the United States yet was attacked anyway. How is that protecting the freedoms of the United States of America?

So many flaws, but I'll keep it brief.

Your assumption that liberals want peace more is incorrect. They are only the ones who appear to want peace at any cost. We were warned a long time ago that those who are willing to sacrifice security for peace will have neither - and deserve neither.

Your assertion that Iraq was no threat to us can only be made by ignoring several facts that clearly prove that wrong. I shall not go through them again as you will only ignore them again.

There is a clear and present danger to this nation, in case you didn't notice, therefore there is good reason to enlist and defend this nation. To deny that is to ignore may incidents in the past few years, the most eye-catching was 9-11-01.

Now, as to the originator of this thread I would like to say something, and I mean this as hearsh as it sounds. Who in the Hell are you to call the fine and brave servicemen we have on duty now, and the ones that are enlisting as we speak, cowards? They are a part of this nation like everyone else. What, are you saying there weren't dope-smokers, video addicts and selfish people in your graduating class? There certainly was in my class of '82, I assure you. When I joined the Army months before graduation and was waiting for the three short days after graduation to go to basic training, many of my classmates made it clear they weren't going to go and join no "damned Army"; they were going to go to law school or med school and rake in the big bucks. Well, they went there way and I went mine. I'm not "raking in the big bucks", but I hold my head up as high as theirs, and I believe I feel more pride in what they do than even they do. I was one of the ones that insured they are able to still do what they wanted to do.
Don't get caught up in this ultra-liberal message board. Being libs, they see us as the bad guy, no matter how dire the situation, they will always ignore the facts and cling to their cowardly and unfounded notions. You sound older than most here, you should already know that they haven't changed down through the years, no matter how many times they have been proven wrong.
Don't give up hope for the nation. There are plenty of brave and morally strong young people who will answer the call of the nation in need. Be proud of them, think positively and carry yourself positively. Leave the negative crap for the liberals. The love it, so let them have it.

Thomas,

My complaint is not against those who serve or have served in the U.S. military. I also served in the U.S. military. My complaint is against those cowardly Americans who seem to think that freedom is a birthright. They have no sense of duty or service and belittle those who would take up the mantle that they refuse to carry. Make sure you read through my post before assuming that my remark was one that in any way disparaged those military men and women whom I love.

This a heated debate riddled with trolling statements (including the title of the thread lol) but I'll try my best here to interject my 2 cents.

First of all you do not need war to have peace, you need to have peace to have peace. I know it sounds like a hard condition to come by given people with power and money want more power and money but I don't see how slaughtering scores of innocent children just to kill a few mad men can be justified in any way shape or form. In fact a parent of a child or innocent loved one who died by the hands of the US military on the orders of GWB is very likely to become the next "terrorist." We are ignoring the conditions to have peace because it isn't profitable enough, peace doesn't require weapons it requires an understanding, it doesn't require power it requires humility, and most of all it does not require the murder of innocent children, not even as a unintended side effect.

The US military is comprised of the children of my nation, I have family and friends who serve with pride in what they do. They are not politicians or policy makers they are there to protect us from people who are trying to harm us. It is very discouraging though that the Senate does not allow their children to defend our country witch tells me that they do not believe Iraq is a real or was a real threat. They are sending our friends and family die in a war that they don't believe is important enough to send their own children to stand beside ours on the battle field. Yet they think they are fit to lead our communities and tell us what laws we should follow and set policy. Yet they do not put a stop to innocent children dieing in a war they obviously don't whole hardily believe in.

A worrier is a man who fights for the rights and freedoms of his family, who fights for food on the table. It is not a man who blindly follows what he is told to do and who blindly accepts what he is doing is for some greater good.

Originally posted by heelstone
Are you forgetting that this is a conspiracy board? Conspiracy is primarily a liberal subject seeing as how its usually about world altering things. I'm not sure about conservatives, but I do know that most people who want peace are liberals. As such there will be a preponderance of liberal anti-war people on this message board.

As far as signing up for the military to protect our freedoms, there first has to be a valid war in which to go fight for these freedoms. Iraq posed no threat to the United States yet was attacked anyway. How is that protecting the freedoms of the United States of America?

and liberals waste their breath. peace will never happen as long as man is around on this planet. there's always going to be one asshole country who ruins it for the rest of the world.

Originally posted by Machine
My complaint is against those cowardly Americans who seem to think that freedom is a birthright.

Freedom is the birthright of every person on the planet. How on earth would that statement make anyone a "coward?" Freedom is something that is taken away by people in power, they are the true cowards.

Originally posted by Corinthas
Why have i labled you a bigot?
Whatever... i see it differently.... (this is IGNORING my piont i.e IGNORANCE!!)

Very silly. I didn't ignore your 'point'. I read
everything you posted and felt it wasn't worth
my energy or time to bother responding. You
are stewing in your own anti-American world.
Nothing anyone says will convince you otherwise.
That's not bigotry (you don't understand the word).
That's assessing the situation and making a decision
as to if something is worth the taking the time to
discuss. I have come to the conclusion that there is
no 'discussion' with you because you are stuck in
your anti-american fantasy and nothing that I say
will relieve you of your problem.

I'll be praying for you.



[edit on 10/21/2004 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Your assumption that liberals want peace more is incorrect. They are only the ones who appear to want peace at any cost. We were warned a long time ago that those who are willing to sacrifice security for peace will have neither - and deserve neither.

Thank you. That was what I was saying. Ultra-Liberals who go
around saying 'peace no matter what' are doomed just as
Chamberlain was doomed with the Nazi's. Always try peace first,
but if it doesn't work .. then it doesn't work. There are times that
war is needed. The Wahabbis use peace as a war tactic, not
as a goal. They want 'infidels' dead. There is no negotiation
or 'making nice'. If you try putting a daisy down the barrel of
a Wahabbi rifle and say 'peace brother' - he'll blow your head off
and he'll kill everyone else around you as well.

Originally posted by J0HNSmith

Freedom is the birthright of every person on the planet. How on earth would that statement make anyone a "coward?" Freedom is something that is taken away by people in power, they are the true cowards.

This is exactly right. "Are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights" sound familiar?

Don't flaunt your military experiance, and don't assume that there aren't plenty of brave people out there. It is pretty ignorant and disrespectful to suggest that the current generation is cowardly.

Why don't you go join the boys in Iraq and display your unquenchable warrior spirit?

A lot of people join the military for financail aid with school, not to display their courage. If you truly were proud of your service, (if you indeed served) you would never insult America.

JOHNSmith

Freedom is the birthright of every person on the planet. How on earth would that statement make anyone a "coward?" Freedom is something that is taken away by people in power, they are the true cowards.

You've misunderstood the context of my statement. I agree that every man and woman in this world is born free and should remain free. My point of contention is with those who think that freedom is something that comes without cost. Freedom always comes at the price of blood. This has been true throughout all of history and will continue to be true. Blood paid the ultimate price to free us all from our sins and blood is the only currency that buys political freedom.

Freedom is indeed a birthright but that birthright has a cost that everyone should be willing to pay.

Rain King

Don't flaunt your military experiance, and don't assume that there aren't plenty of brave people out there. It is pretty ignorant and disrespectful to suggest that the current generation is cowardly.

Who flaunted their military experience? I was asked a direct question concerning whether or not I had served and I answered directly. Please read the threads before making assumptions about my motivations for giving my service information.

I still hold to my belief that the majority of teenagers growing up today in America are not nearly as brave as those of generations past. Each generation becomes softer and more pampered. Demanding more and willing to pay less.

Rain King

Why don't you go join the boys in Iraq and display your unquenchable warrior spirit?

I have served my country both as an Airborne Soldier and as a Deputy Sheriff. Both jobs have put me in mortal danger several times during my employment. But you might just be right. If you and others like you refuse to pay your fair share then people like me might have to take a third and fourth bite at the apple. The brave have always carried the load that cowards refuse to lift.

A lot of people join the military for financail aid with school, not to display their courage. If you truly were proud of your service, (if you indeed served) you would never insult America.

Joining the military for financial aid is not the proper motivation to serve. You join the military to defend freedom. If that military shows support for you by granting future educational aid then that is a nice benefit but should never be the primary motivation for signing up.

I indeed served and my service entitles me to speak freely on the matter. We have more selfish youth in this country than at any other time in our history. They think freedom is free and that their comfortable lives are owed to them without cost.

They are wrong.

Originally posted by Machine
Thomas,

My complaint is not against those who serve or have served in the U.S. military. I also served in the U.S. military. My complaint is against those cowardly Americans who seem to think that freedom is a birthright. They have no sense of duty or service and belittle those who would take up the mantle that they refuse to carry. Make sure you read through my post before assuming that my remark was one that in any way disparaged those military men and women whom I love.

I read your post, and I read the title. I know what you were trying to say. My point is that, as I was being too harsh on you, you are being too harsh on the American public. It really isn't as bad as you think it is. We can get pretty pessimistic as we get older, haven't you noticed?

John, that was great hippie rhetoric. �First of all you do not need war to have peace, you need to have peace to have peace.� Of course, it means little, no matter how good it might look to a �peacenik� if it were put on a T-shirt. You cannot wish peace into existence, and ignoring threats against your nation and thinking loving thoughts do not make your family safe. Standing up to the threat and destroying it is the only way to attain real peace. Otherwise, peace only means the lack of violence, and after a nation is conquered by their enemy and any attempt to struggle is quashed, their preference of peace will be instated. But is that really peace, the kind we imagine? No, that is what cowards get and deserve.

You have friends and family who serve? How about that? So do I. I also served my country, and it was during a time when another president got continuously hammered by the weak and cowardly for being a warmonger and a threat to the entire world. Guess what? The cowardly liberal and the limp-spined left were wrong then, too.

I think you made a Freudian slip when you typed �worrier�. Regardless, let me clarify a couple things. A warrior fights or stands ready to fight for his nation. That has nothing to do with �putting food on the table�, but he does get paid for his service. Putting food on the table can be done more effectively in the civilian sector. A warrior also does not question the orders of his leaders. His must assume his leaders have a larger picture of the situation and act accordingly. It has nothing to do with blindness. It is called discipline.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Your assumption that liberals want peace more is incorrect. They are only the ones who appear to want peace at any cost. We were warned a long time ago that those who are willing to sacrifice security for peace will have neither - and deserve neither.

Such a statement is baseless demagoguery. Nothing more.

Your assertion that Iraq was no threat to us can only be made by ignoring several facts that clearly prove that wrong. I shall not go through them again as you will only ignore them again.

Correct. There are tons of threads on this board and of course reality itself proving Iraq was no threat to the United States. It doesn't need to get dragged up again.

There is a clear and present danger to this nation, in case you didn't notice, therefore there is good reason to enlist and defend this nation. To deny that is to ignore may incidents in the past few years, the most eye-catching was 9-11-01.

You should realize by now you're talking to conspiracy theorists. You do know this, right? Some of us don't buy into the this threat considering the dearth of convictions concerning the eye-catcher of 9/11 over the last three years.

No, Heelsone, that is not just "baseless demagoguery", it has been proven time and time again. It was proven several times last century alone. The peace at no cost in a violent world concept is baseless and a great place for the cowardly to bury their heads.

Heelsone, I am aware that this place used to be a conspiracy site. I've been lurking since around 200, I think, and been a member since 2001. I imagine I've nailed down a few ideas. I, too, am a conspiracy theorist type, but guess what? That doesn't mean I have to throw all logic and sanity to the wind.

Thomas Crowne,

We can get pretty pessimistic as we get older, haven't you noticed?

You're correct to point that out. I keep in contact with two fine young warriors who are serving in Iraq. I should not forget that we do indeed have some good warriors left in the world. I guess this old man gets down now and again.

Long live the fighters!

I think you are too harsh in saying that teenagers today are spineless cowards.

I have seen many brave actions by teens in recent years.
These include...

Wearing "no name" clothes in public.
Carrying an "old" non graphic cell phone
Saying that they like the TV soaps.
Listening to disco
Inviting friends around to play their old playstation.
Driving a station wagon.
Still eating at Mac Donalds.

The mark for bravery has just moved from a desire to shoot people to standing up against their peer culture.

Actually in all seriousness are they less brave or just not as conditioned by the jingoistic propaganda that demands the give up their lives for corrupt and incompetent leaders?.

Maybe in fighting as you have done, you are more gullible than the teens of today who are quite cynical about their government.

Also war has generally attracted the poor, maybe people feel they have things worth LIVING for instead of dying?

[edit on 21-10-2004 by Netchicken]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The Wahabbis use peace as a war tactic, not
as a goal. They want 'infidels' dead. There is no negotiation
or 'making nice'. If you try putting a daisy down the barrel of
a Wahabbi rifle and say 'peace brother' - he'll blow your head off
and he'll kill everyone else around you as well.

I would be interested in knowing what you base this statement on, do you actually know any Wahabbi? Have you read any Islamic opinions or are you basing your opinion of a culture from a war time media portrayal of them? Maybe they just don't like being bombed and shot at in an illegal invasion by a foriegn country. Here's a good question the Muslims are asking if you bother to listen to all sides of a story, maybe you can answer this one for them..
When did the Wahabbi movement become Muslim?